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Faith # 7

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Why all men dont have Faith ?

We have already pointed out one reason why all men don't have Faith/Believe, yet another reason is because not all men are the Beloved of the Lord, Chosen from the beginning unto Salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The word belief here is the same noun faith in 2 Thess 3:2

So all men don't have belief of the truth because they're not Christ sheep and they are not of those "the Beloved of the Lord, Chosen from the beginning unto Salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Why all men don't have Faith ?

2 Thess 3:2

And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Its because all men are not Christs Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Because the lost are incapable of having any faith in anything at all??

Riiiiight, they believe in nothing. They are faithful to nothing.

You always push the cart with the horse. It doesn’t have to be that complicated.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Because the lost are incapable of having any faith in anything at all??

Riiiiight, they believe in nothing. They are faithful to nothing.

You always push the cart with the horse. It doesn’t have to be that complicated.
Ben1445, you are making a massive category error by confusing natural human faith with supernatural saving faith.

Nobody is claiming that unregenerate men lack the biological capacity to believe in a political party, a chair, or a pagan idol. That is natural human faith, and it requires zero spiritual life. The "faith" Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 3:2 and Jesus is talking about in John 10:26 is specifically saving faith directed toward God.

Let's look at who is actually putting the cart before the horse according to the direct grammar of Scripture:

1. The Causal Sentence Structure of John 10:26

You claim I am flipping the sequence. Let's let Christ's own syntax settle the order:

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep...”
Look at the word because (the Greek causal conjunction γάρ - gar). It acts as a strict causal arrow.
  • Your Synergistic Order: "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." (Faith determines election).
  • Christ's Actual Order: "You do not believe because you are not my sheep." (Election determines faith).
Jesus explicitly states that their lack of faith is the direct consequence of their non-elect status. They don't fail to become sheep because they refuse to believe; they are incapable of believing because they were never chosen as Sheep in the first place.

2. Saving Faith is Not a Native Human Capacity

You say it doesn't have to be complicated. It isn't. The reason "all men have not faith" (2 Thess 3:2) is that saving faith is not a native superpower that sinners can generate from their dead hearts. Scripture explicitly defines saving faith as an infused, sovereign gift:
  • Philippians 1:29: “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him...”
  • Acts 18:27: “...helped them much which had believed through grace.”
If faith were a natural capacity available to all men, Paul’s statement that "all men have not faith" would be completely meaningless. He isolates faith as a distinct possession belonging only to a specific group.

Conclusion

I am not putting the cart before the horse; I am keeping the Creator before the creature.
Man cannot drive the cart of faith until God provides the horse of regeneration. You are trying to make a spiritually dead corpse perform a supernatural act of saving faith while remaining a wolf. But Jesus completely crushes your timeline: you must be a Sheep by sovereign election and monergistic quickening before you can ever hear His voice and exercise the gift of faith.




 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Ben1445, you are making a massive category error by confusing natural human faith with supernatural saving faith.

Nobody is claiming that unregenerate men lack the biological capacity to believe in a political party, a chair, or a pagan idol. That is natural human faith, and it requires zero spiritual life. The "faith" Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 3:2 and Jesus is talking about in John 10:26 is specifically saving faith directed toward God.

Let's look at who is actually putting the cart before the horse according to the direct grammar of Scripture:

1. The Causal Sentence Structure of John 10:26

You claim I am flipping the sequence. Let's let Christ's own syntax settle the order:


Look at the word because (the Greek causal conjunction γάρ - gar). It acts as a strict causal arrow.
  • Your Synergistic Order: "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." (Faith determines election).
  • Christ's Actual Order: "You do not believe because you are not my sheep." (Election determines faith).
Jesus explicitly states that their lack of faith is the direct consequence of their non-elect status. They don't fail to become sheep because they refuse to believe; they are incapable of believing because they were never chosen as Sheep in the first place.

2. Saving Faith is Not a Native Human Capacity

You say it doesn't have to be complicated. It isn't. The reason "all men have not faith" (2 Thess 3:2) is that saving faith is not a native superpower that sinners can generate from their dead hearts. Scripture explicitly defines saving faith as an infused, sovereign gift:
  • Philippians 1:29: “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him...”
  • Acts 18:27: “...helped them much which had believed through grace.”
If faith were a natural capacity available to all men, Paul’s statement that "all men have not faith" would be completely meaningless. He isolates faith as a distinct possession belonging only to a specific group.

Conclusion

I am not putting the cart before the horse; I am keeping the Creator before the creature.
Man cannot drive the cart of faith until God provides the horse of regeneration. You are trying to make a spiritually dead corpse perform a supernatural act of saving faith while remaining a wolf. But Jesus completely crushes your timeline: you must be a Sheep by sovereign election and monergistic quickening before you can ever hear His voice and exercise the gift of faith.

Ah! I see. You have hitched the horse up to the wrong cart. I don’t know any real Christians (and there are plenty of people who are not Christians) who know that in God we live and move and have our being.
But you demean the work of Christ by saying that it is ineffective to salvation. It is not the Holy Spirit who saves us. The Holy Spirit is not the Name given whereby we must be saved.
You cause a stumbling block at the gate of salvation. You are overemphasizing the illustrations.
Scripture says believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. It doesn’t say that you may believe if you have been pre-generated. You forget that God has already created all men and seeks to redeem His creation, the creation He calls made in His Image. By stepping into the role of God, and saying that God doesn’t want some people, you make God out to be a respecter of persons. This is the exact opposite of the way God has revealed Himself.

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”

And that is not a general statement. “He” is a very specific person and not a representation of “a select some.” He is “one of any.”

God has not forbidden any that they have the ability to fear Him and work righteousness.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
But you demean the work of Christ by saying that it is ineffective to salvation. It is not the Holy Spirit who saves us. The Holy Spirit is not the Name given whereby we must be saved.
Yes the Holy Spirit does save them Christ died for in a complimentary role in His Saving work, explain Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Ah! I see. You have hitched the horse up to the wrong cart. I don’t know any real Christians (and there are plenty of people who are not Christians) who know that in God we live and move and have our being.
But you demean the work of Christ by saying that it is ineffective to salvation. It is not the Holy Spirit who saves us. The Holy Spirit is not the Name given whereby we must be saved.
You cause a stumbling block at the gate of salvation. You are overemphasizing the illustrations.
Scripture says believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. It doesn’t say that you may believe if you have been pre-generated. You forget that God has already created all men and seeks to redeem His creation, the creation He calls made in His Image. By stepping into the role of God, and saying that God doesn’t want some people, you make God out to be a respecter of persons. This is the exact opposite of the way God has revealed Himself.

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”

And that is not a general statement. “He” is a very specific person and not a representation of “a select some.” He is “one of any.”

God has not forbidden any that they have the ability to fear Him and work righteousness.
Ben, your response does not merely hit the wrong cart; it completely derails into a dangerous division of the Triune Godhead and a severe misreading of the text. By trying to pit the work of the Son against the work of the Holy Spirit, you are preaching a fragmented gospel that strips God of His absolute glory as the sole Author of salvation.
Let’s look at the theological and exegetical collapse of your argument:

1. Pitting the Son Against the Spirit is Trinitarian Heresy

You state: "It is not the Holy Spirit who saves us. The Holy Spirit is not the Name given whereby we must be saved."
Think carefully about the gravity of what you are saying. The Bible never pits the Person of the Son against the Person of the Spirit. Salvation is an inseparable, sovereign work of the Triune God.
  • The Legal Phase: The Son perfectly purchased His people on the cross in 33 AD, paying their debt in full.
  • The Vital Phase: The Holy Spirit effectively applies that blood-bought redemption to the elect corpse by sovereignly quickening them into life.
To say the Holy Spirit does not save us directly flatly contradicts Scripture. Paul explicitly declares that God saves us by the Holy Spirit:

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
—Titus 3:5
Without the Vital Phase—the sovereign quickening of the Holy Spirit—the finished work of Christ would remain completely unapplied to a single dead sinner. The Spirit doesn't replace Christ; the Spirit applies Christ!

2. The Absolute Myth of a "Resperter of Persons" in Election

You claim that by holding to a sovereign election where God chooses a specific people, I am making God out to be a "respecter of persons."
You are completely misinterpreting what that phrase means in the Bible. As the great high-Calvinist commentator John Gill masterfully noted on Romans 2:11, "respect of persons" is a forensic term relating strictly to courts of law: [1]
  • A judge is a "respecter of persons" if he lets a guilty wealthy man off the hook because of his bribe, or condemns a poor man out of prejudice. It means showing partiality based on outward plumbing, social class, or race. [1, 2]
  • However, a sovereign King is never a respecter of persons for bestowing free grace, favors, or alms on whomever He pleases. If a king chooses to forgive a debt for one man, but demands justice from another who refuses to pay, he is not a respecter of persons; he is simply being merciful to one and strictly just to the other. [1, 2]
If God chose the elect based on their future faith, their good choices, or their ancestry, then He would be a respecter of persons, because He would be preferring them for something found in their flesh! But High Calvinism maintains that God's election is based entirely on His own sovereign good pleasure, completely independent of anything in the creature (Ephesians 1:4-5). God doesn't choose you because you are better, smarter, or more willing; He chooses because He wills to choose.

3. Squeezing the True Meaning of Acts 10:34–35

You weaponize Peter's words to Cornelius: “God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him... is accepted with him.” You claim this means anyone has the native ability to fear Him.

You have completely ripped this text out of its historical context. What was the massive shift happening in Acts 10? The gospel was finally going to the Gentiles. For thousands of years, the Jews thought God only loved people with Abrahamic blood. Peter’s sudden realization in Cornelius’s house was not an endorsement of free-will ability; it was the realization that God does not respect ethnic boundaries! As John Gill writes on this verse, God doesn't value a man more because he is a Jew, nor value him less because he is a Gentile. [1, 2]


Furthermore, you are putting the cart before the horse again. You think Cornelius feared God in his natural, unregenerate strength. But a dead, hostile, unregenerate man has no fear of God before his eyes (Romans 3:18).

If Cornelius genuinely feared God and worked righteousness, it is because the Holy Spirit had already performed the Vital Phase of quickening in his heart, causing him to seek after God. His fear of God was the evidence of his election, not the cause of it.

The Bottom Line

You claim that I am causing a "stumbling block at the gate of salvation" by saying a man cannot believe until he is quickened. But you are trying to make a decomposing corpse step through a gate before it has legs or breath.

Scripture's order is absolute. Man cannot practically perform a supernatural work until he is vitallly made a new creation. You want a salvation where Christ provided a potential bridge, but man's self-generated faith supplies the final, decisive difference.

I reject that carnal timeline. Salvation is of the Lord from first to last. The Father purposed it (Eternal Phase), the Son purchased it (Legal Phase), and the Holy Spirit infallibly applies it (Vital Phase), producing the faith and obedience of His chosen people (Practical Phase). Halleluiah!
 
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