"God Saves Sinners Completely and Fully"

[KenH]

Romans 9:18-23
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory?
...
Sovereign Grace is all about Christ. It is the way that God saves sinners completely and fully, in a way that God receives all the glory and credit for doing so. It is salvation conditioned on Christ alone. It is a salvation that no sinner can take credit for as to brag of any merit or righteousness in them but only by the righteousness the LORD Jesus Christ earned as He was obedient in His life and death to do a work that fully satisfied all the strict demands of God's Law and unbending justice.

One thing very offensive to the pride of a sinner is that in this exclusive way of salvation (there is no other way) God rules out all works or merit that sinners may try to use as a means to earn justification at Judgment and enter heaven. This would include any works of the Law or obedience in any form done by the sinner. Even actions that would credit the sinner's will or their sincerity. No prayer, no ceremony, no ritual, no system or formula, no matter how religious, pious, zealous, or done with good intentions will save, help save or add to salvation in any way. This means that salvation is by grace 100% or there is NO salvation at all.

Most people in "Evangelical" churches would credit the sinner for FAITH and REPENTANCE. They do this in such a way as to credit these to the exercise of the will, making the free action by the sinner of the will be the determining factor in heaven or hell. This shifts credit from the life and death of Christ and puts man's will in direct competition with the glorious, perfect, finished work of Jesus Christ. God, of course, will not have that. He will never share His glory with another (a sinner especially).

The word of God clearly teaches that both faith and repentance are gifts from God, which He works in the sinner by His Spirit, powerfully causing them to happen. Soon one begins to see that at every turn in describing how salvation is NOT by the works and will of the sinner, every possible cause or condition done by the sinner is eliminated. It is here that one will start to see that the remedy for sin MUST be totally in the hands of God alone and be done in a sovereign way, His way.

The doctrine of God's sovereign grace is that God Almighty alone is the determining factor in who will be saved and who will not be saved. It is just that simple. In the wickedness of the natural sinful heart and mind mankind will rebel against this truth saying that it is not fair and that God does NOT have the Divine right to decide. Feel free to take that up with the LORD when you face Him at judgment. He will destroy you with such an accusation. God's word is clear in many places that He is sovereign, not only in creation and providence but especially in salvation because of Redemptive Glory. That glory was magnified by the LORD Jesus Christ himself. Sovereign Grace is Christ-centered.

- excerpt from an article entitled, "Sovereign Grace: What Is It All About?", by Scott Price, pastor of Gospel of Grace Ministries, 25 miles north of downtown Cincinnati, Ohio( rest of article at Sovereign Grace: What Is It All About? by Scott Price | Grace Baptist Church | SermonAudio )

 

[Ben1445]

Romans 9:18-23
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory?
...
Sovereign Grace is all about Christ. It is the way that God saves sinners completely and fully, in a way that God receives all the glory and credit for doing so. It is salvation conditioned on Christ alone. It is a salvation that no sinner can take credit for as to brag of any merit or righteousness in them but only by the righteousness the LORD Jesus Christ earned as He was obedient in His life and death to do a work that fully satisfied all the strict demands of God's Law and unbending justice.

One thing very offensive to the pride of a sinner is that in this exclusive way of salvation (there is no other way) God rules out all works or merit that sinners may try to use as a means to earn justification at Judgment and enter heaven. This would include any works of the Law or obedience in any form done by the sinner. Even actions that would credit the sinner's will or their sincerity. No prayer, no ceremony, no ritual, no system or formula, no matter how religious, pious, zealous, or done with good intentions will save, help save or add to salvation in any way. This means that salvation is by grace 100% or there is NO salvation at all.

Most people in "Evangelical" churches would credit the sinner for FAITH and REPENTANCE. They do this in such a way as to credit these to the exercise of the will, making the free action by the sinner of the will be the determining factor in heaven or hell. This shifts credit from the life and death of Christ and puts man's will in direct competition with the glorious, perfect, finished work of Jesus Christ. God, of course, will not have that. He will never share His glory with another (a sinner especially).

The word of God clearly teaches that both faith and repentance are gifts from God, which He works in the sinner by His Spirit, powerfully causing them to happen. Soon one begins to see that at every turn in describing how salvation is NOT by the works and will of the sinner, every possible cause or condition done by the sinner is eliminated. It is here that one will start to see that the remedy for sin MUST be totally in the hands of God alone and be done in a sovereign way, His way.

The doctrine of God's sovereign grace is that God Almighty alone is the determining factor in who will be saved and who will not be saved. It is just that simple. In the wickedness of the natural sinful heart and mind mankind will rebel against this truth saying that it is not fair and that God does NOT have the Divine right to decide. Feel free to take that up with the LORD when you face Him at judgment. He will destroy you with such an accusation. God's word is clear in many places that He is sovereign, not only in creation and providence but especially in salvation because of Redemptive Glory. That glory was magnified by the LORD Jesus Christ himself. Sovereign Grace is Christ-centered.

- excerpt from an article entitled, "Sovereign Grace: What Is It All About?", by Scott Price, pastor of Gospel of Grace Ministries, 25 miles north of downtown Cincinnati, Ohio( rest of article at Sovereign Grace: What Is It All About? by Scott Price | Grace Baptist Church | SermonAudio )

It does make you wonder how people can read about Abraham reasoning with God, and Jacob wrestling with God and still say that we are going to be “destroyed with such an accusation.”
And there is always the copout- well they were preselected.
I think I remember Jesus rejecting someone who was not preselected too.

Mt. 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You are not of the house of Israel, I have nothing to do with you. I was not sent to you.

And again,
Mt. 15:26
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.


You are not even a sheep who is not of the house of Israel. You are a dog, not a sheep.


But she continued to ignore the words of the Savior who sent her away.

And the final response,

Mr. 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


Amazing what some importunity can do!

Methinks I have read that that is how we are supposed to behave toward God, wrestling. Not wrestling against God, but with God about how His promises are sure, His mercies are everlasting, and His truth enduring to all generations. How God is not a respecter of persons, but that He deals with each according to how they deal with Him. He does not give equity as the fools of today’s world desire it. Rather, He judges justly. He judges based upon what we have instead of what we do not have.

The principle,
2 Corinthians 8:12
For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

The principle in action,
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And yes, I do believe that everywhere is every place you can find and all men are all the people in every place you can find. I do not wrest Scripture.
Were there one man who was not called upon to repent but was left without knowledge to come to repentance, the word all would be the wrong word and God would be a liar.
Unless you believe that some of all men everywhere have sinned and come short of the glory of God, or that death passed upon some of all men out of every tribe and kindred and tongue and nation.

Let’s not use an unjust measure.

 

[Ascetic X]

How dare anyone say that Jesus gave a command that was impossible for unsaved people to obey.


Mark 1:14,15

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand. Repent ye and believe the Gospel.”


This does not mean that repenting and believing are what saves you.

Repenting and believing are the conditions of obedience that are required for God to grant salvation.

Free will choosing is the foundation of God’s dealings with men. Nothing is forced on anyone. This enables God to righteously judge those who chose to reject Him. Their refusal to repent and believe is entirely their own fault.

They cannot say, “God you didn’t put repentance in me, so it’s not my fault that I’m unsaved.”



Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[KenH]

Repenting and believing are the conditions of obedience that are required for God to grant salvation.

There are no conditions for God's elect, those He chose before the foundation of the world and gave to Christ to be their Surety, as Christ fulfilled ALL of the conditions for their salvation. Faith and repentance are gifts given by God to His elect after they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit under the proclamation of the gospel of the finished work of Christ on their behalf.

 

[KenH]

Free will choosing is the foundation of God’s dealings with men.

Man has no such thing as free will. Fallen man trying to be saved by "free will" is something that he never has been able to accomplish and never will be able to accomplish.

Salvation is NOT of man.

"Salvation is of the LORD". - Jonah 2:9

 

[Ben1445]

Man has no such thing as free will.

You are obviously exercising it and are in denial.

 

[KenH]

You are obviously exercising it and are in denial.

You are looking to exercising your alleged "free will" in order to be saved.

I am saved by the finished work of Christ Jesus as my Surety.

 

[Ben1445]

Salvation is NOT of man.

"Salvation is of the LORD". - Jonah 2:9

Free will is not the source of salvation. No one has been saying it is. Free will is the responsibility God has given to men to obey. Sinful man will often disobey. God is not to blame for their disobedience. Some people will obey. They will exercise their free will and make a choice that is available for them to make. The fact that we do have free will is evidenced by the difficulty that Christians still do experience with sin.
Faith and grace are not programming. Grace is a gift. Our faith is how is how we are given grace.

Leave it to the intellectuals to decide that thinking is work. Calvinism is very like a far east religion. It places too much credit on people’s minds and must therefore become a fatalistic religion.

 

[Ben1445]

You are looking to exercising your alleged "free will" in order to be saved.

I am saved by the finished work of Christ Jesus as my Surety.

You are mistaken. Anyone who is saved is saved by the finished work of Jesus Christ.

You obviously chose to respond to me. You exercised free will in responding to me. You may either have the ability to respond with free will or you must accept that I am the one who granted you the ability to respond.

Or you could just use common sense and recognize that I offered you the opportunity to respond, and you exercised your “free will” to do it.

 

[KenH]

Free will is the responsibility God has given to men to obey.

Even if fallen man had "free will", fallen man would be incapable of exercising "free will" in order to be saved. Anyone who tried to do so would fail.

Thus,

"Salvation is of the LORD". - Jonah 2:9

 

[Ben1445]

Even if fallen man had "free will", fallen man would be incapable of exercising "free will" in order to be saved. Anyone who tried to do so would fail.

Thus,

"Salvation is of the LORD". - Jonah 2:9

Salvation is “not of him that willeth.” So what does that mean?
That the person who is willing to be saved is not saving himself. Basic theology.
But this verse flies in the face of your teaching. It recognizes that the will of the individual is involved in the process of salvation.
You claim it has no place. Scripture recognizes it. You should also.

 

[KenH]

Ultimately, there are only two religions in the world - salvation by free will and salvation by free grace. And the Bible teaches that salvation by free will is impossible and that salvation is by free grace.

"Salvation is of the LORD." - Jonah 2:9

 

[Ascetic X]

Ultimately, there are only two religions in the world - salvation by free will and salvation by free grace. And the Bible teaches that salvation by free will is impossible and that salvation is by free grace.

"Salvation is of the LORD." - Jonah 2:9

Then why did Jesus command people to repent and believe, if it is impossible?

Mark 1:14,15

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand. Repent ye and believe the Gospel.”

 

[KenH]

Then why did Jesus command people to repent and believe, if it is impossible?

God's elect, those He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety, whose sins were imputed to Christ and He paid their total sin debt and the ones for whom Christ fulfilled all of the conditions for their salvation and to whom the righteousness of Christ is imputed, do not walk around with a big letter "E" on their foreheads. God brings them under the hearing of the gospel and the Holy Spirit regenerates them and grants them the gift of faith in Christ and His finish work on their behalf and the gift of repentance from dead works.

Thus the gospel of Christ is to be proclaimed widely and freely since we cannot prejudge who is elect and who is reprobate.

Also, inability to do something does not mean one is not required to do it. For instance, if one cannot pay the real estate taxes due on his property, that does not relieve him of the requirement to do so.

 

[Ascetic X]

God's elect, those He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety, whose sins were imputed to Christ and He paid their total sin debt and the ones for whom Christ fulfilled all of the conditions for their salvation and to whom the righteousness of Christ is imputed, do not walk around with a big letter "E" on their foreheads. God brings them under the hearing of the gospel and the Holy Spirit regenerates them and grants them the gift of faith in Christ and His finish work on their behalf and the gift of repentance from dead works.

Thus the gospel of Christ is to be proclaimed widely and freely since we cannot prejudge who is elect and who is reprobate.

Also, inability to do something does not mean one is not required to do it. For instance, if one cannot pay the real estate taxes due on his property, that does not relieve him of the requirement to do so.

So when Jesus preached “repent and believe”, it was an impossibility for people to obey it, but it was still required? And God put the repenting and believing into some people, the elect, without them obeying the command, because they were unable to do so?

Your theology is completely absurd and unbiblical.

 

[KenH]

So when Jesus preached “repent and believe”, it was an impossibility for people to obey it, but it was still required?

It is impossible for the reprobate to repent and believe.

And God put the repenting and believing into some people, the elect, without them obeying the command, because they were unable to do so?

The Holy Spirit regenerates God's elect under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and then grants them the gift of faith in Christ's finished work on their behalf and the gift of repentance from dead works.

Thus, God's elect obey the command to repent and believe the gospel.

There are only two options - salvation by "free will" or salvation by free grace. The Bible teaches that salvation is by free grace and not by "free will".

 

[KenH]

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

1) The options Joshua said they would choose from were "whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell." History shows this to have been the case.


2) Joshua also went on to tell them in verse 19: And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

The operative word being "cannot". Again, history shows this to have been the case. It is only a remnant who are saved:

Romans 9:27-29
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
for he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
And as Esaias said before,
Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Paul says it is the Lord's work, and it is the Lord who left a seed, not man.

 

[Ascetic X]

It is impossible for the reprobate to repent and believe.



The Holy Spirit regenerates God's elect under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and then grants them the gift of faith in Christ's finished work on their behalf and the gift of repentance from dead works.

Thus, God's elect obey the command to repent and believe the gospel.

There are only two options - salvation by "free will" or salvation by free grace. The Bible teaches that salvation is by free grace and not by "free will".

So sinners do not have to repent or believe. God just imposes salvation on them if they are elect.

Yet all through the Bible, coming to God is based on choosing to do so. Those who refuse are called rebels.

Joshua states that he will, exercising free choice, serve the Lord.

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[KenH]

So sinners do not have to repent or believe.

Yes, they do.

The Holy Spirit regenerates God's elect under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and then grants them the gift of faith in Christ's finished work on their behalf and the gift of repentance from dead works.

Thus, God's elect obey the command to repent and believe the gospel.

Joshua stars that he will, exercising free choice, serve the Lord.

Joshua served the Lord because God chose him before the world began and gave him to His Son to be his Surety and to meet all of the conditions for Joshua's salvation.

 

[Ascetic X]

Yes, they do.

The Holy Spirit regenerates God's elect under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and then grants them the gift of faith in Christ's finished work on their behalf and the gift of repentance from dead works.

Thus, God's elect obey the command to repent and believe the gospel.



Joshua served the Lord because God chose him before the world began and gave him to His Son to be his Surety and to meet all of the conditions for Joshua's salvation.

You are adding your opinions to the scriptures, instead of understanding exactly what is written.

Joshua declared there was a choice men needed to make, between serving false gods and the true God.

Jesus preached “repent and believe”.

He did not preach “God will grant you repentance and faith”.

Thus, fallen man can obey or disobey. This fact is what judgment will be based on.