Time Does Not Exist

[kv100]

I want to examine something we often take for granted: the existence of time itself.

My argument begins with a fundamental characteristic of God’s creation: God does not create without purpose. Scripture repeatedly presents His creation as intentional, purposeful, and according to His will.

Isaiah 45:18 tells us that God formed the earth to be inhabited. Colossians 1:16 says that all things were created through Christ and for Him. Revelation 4:11 declares that all things exist because of God’s will.

Consider also Proverbs 16:4:

> “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (KJV)

The consistent biblical picture is that God’s works are not arbitrary or without purpose. He creates with intention. We therefore have reason to examine the purpose of anything we propose that He created.

This brings me to time.

Time serves no purpose that God has not already provided for.

God established the heavenly lights to mark days, years, and seasons (Genesis 1:14). Through these, the duration and cycles of created existence can be measured. We can determine how long something exists, distinguish one event from another, and establish the sequence in which events occur. These functions are already accounted for within creation itself.

An independently existing entity called Time would add nothing to these arrangements. It would not provide another means of measuring duration, establish a sequence that does not already exist, or fulfil a purpose that the created order does not already fulfil. Its supposed existence would therefore serve no additional purpose in creation.

And this is significant because God does not create without purpose. Everything He creates is intentional and serves His will. There is no biblical basis for portraying His creative work as arbitrary or purposeless. Consequently, attributing the creation of an independently existing entity called Time to God introduces something for which no distinct purpose has been established, despite the fact that He already provided everything necessary to measure the duration and cycles of created existence.

There is also a distinction between God’s existence and ours.

Psalm 90:2 declares:

> “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” (KJV)

God is eternal. His existence does not depend on days, years, seasons, or any measurement of duration.

Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 further illustrate that our measurements of duration cannot simply be applied to God’s eternal existence. A thousand years is described as being like a day to Him, and a day like a thousand years.

Furthermore, 1 Timothy 6:16 describes God as the one who has immortality, while 1 John 5:11–12 explains that eternal life is given to us through His Son. God is the source of life; we receive life from Him.

The distinction is between the measurable duration and sequence of created existence and the idea that Time exists independently as something in its own right. The existence of the former does not establish the existence of the latter.

 

[David Lamb]

I want to examine something we often take for granted: the existence of time itself.

My argument begins with a fundamental characteristic of God’s creation: God does not create without purpose. Scripture repeatedly presents His creation as intentional, purposeful, and according to His will.

Isaiah 45:18 tells us that God formed the earth to be inhabited. Colossians 1:16 says that all things were created through Christ and for Him. Revelation 4:11 declares that all things exist because of God’s will.

Consider also Proverbs 16:4:

> “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (KJV)

The consistent biblical picture is that God’s works are not arbitrary or without purpose. He creates with intention. We therefore have reason to examine the purpose of anything we propose that He created.

This brings me to time.

Time serves no purpose that God has not already provided for.

God established the heavenly lights to mark days, years, and seasons (Genesis 1:14). Through these, the duration and cycles of created existence can be measured. We can determine how long something exists, distinguish one event from another, and establish the sequence in which events occur. These functions are already accounted for within creation itself.

An independently existing entity called Time would add nothing to these arrangements. It would not provide another means of measuring duration, establish a sequence that does not already exist, or fulfil a purpose that the created order does not already fulfil. Its supposed existence would therefore serve no additional purpose in creation.

And this is significant because God does not create without purpose. Everything He creates is intentional and serves His will. There is no biblical basis for portraying His creative work as arbitrary or purposeless. Consequently, attributing the creation of an independently existing entity called Time to God introduces something for which no distinct purpose has been established, despite the fact that He already provided everything necessary to measure the duration and cycles of created existence.

There is also a distinction between God’s existence and ours.

Psalm 90:2 declares:

> “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” (KJV)

God is eternal. His existence does not depend on days, years, seasons, or any measurement of duration.

Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 further illustrate that our measurements of duration cannot simply be applied to God’s eternal existence. A thousand years is described as being like a day to Him, and a day like a thousand years.

Furthermore, 1 Timothy 6:16 describes God as the one who has immortality, while 1 John 5:11–12 explains that eternal life is given to us through His Son. God is the source of life; we receive life from Him.

The distinction is between the measurable duration and sequence of created existence and the idea that Time exists independently as something in its own right. The existence of the former does not establish the existence of the latter.

But surely, the times, seasons, etc. that Genesis tells us God created sun, moon and stars for are indications of time. So are the first day, the second say, etc. mentioned in the account of creation. If there were no such thing as time, terms like seasons, first day, evening and morning would be meaningless.

 

[kv100]

But surely, the times, seasons, etc. that Genesis tells us God created sun, moon and stars for are indications of time. So are the first day, the second say, etc. mentioned in the account of creation. If there were no such thing as time, terms like seasons, first day, evening and morning would be meaningless.

I think there is a distinction between time itself existing and time of existence/passage of existence. I'm saying time itself doesn't exist not time of existence/passage of existence.

 

[David Lamb]

I think there is a distinction between time itself existing and time of existence/passage of existence. I'm saying time itself doesn't exist not time of existence/passage of existence.

But that doesn't make sense, at least to me. If time itself doesn't exist, how can time of existence/passage of existence exist?

 

[kv100]

But that doesn't make sense, at least to me. If time itself doesn't exist, how can time of existence/passage of existence exist?

When I say time of existence I'm just using the word time to qualify change in existence over the amount of time we measure it. I think the best way to put it is just to call it passage of existence or change in existence, it's less confusing that way.

 

[David Lamb]

When I say time of existence I'm just using the word time to qualify change in existence over the amount of time we measure it. I think the best way to put it is just to call it passage of existence or change in existence, it's less confusing that way.

But "time" as I see it, is the word we use to describe the way changes of existence (for example, babies becoming children, children becoming adults, adults dying) are sequenced one after the other. There are plenty of references to time in the Bible. I'll just give two examples, one from each Testament:

NKJV Gen 4:3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

 

[kv100]

But "time" as I see it, is the word we use to describe the way changes of existence (for example, babies becoming children, children becoming adults, adults dying) are sequenced one after the other. There are plenty of references to time in the Bible. I'll just give two examples, one from each Testament:

NKJV Gen 4:3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Thats okay you can use the word time to describe change in existence but that doesnt mean time itself exist. Think of it this way if time actually existed, why would it need to change or cause change? wouldnt it just be there and exist given nothing would affect it? wouldnt also God create time that would only be affected by him preventing anything or anyone from affecting or manipulating it?

 

[David Lamb]

Thats okay you can use the word time to describe change in existence but that doesnt mean time itself exist. Think of it this way if time actually existed, why would it need to change or cause change? wouldnt it just be there and exist given nothing would affect it? wouldnt also God create time that would only affected by him preventing anything or anyone from affecting or manipulating it?

I don't think we are going to come to any conclusion or agreement on this. Your clearly define the word "time" differently to me. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[John of Japan]

Welcome to the BB.

The word "time" occurs in 543 verses in the KJV, according to my PowerBible software. Therefore, to say "Time doesn't exist" is to go against the Word of God.

The way to approach the subject is not with a denial, but with an effort to understand exactly what God meant by "time."

Here is a definition of the Hebrew word for "time" (יום, yôm), which is in the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English lexicon:
"1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
1b2) as a division of time
1b2a) a working day, a day’s journey
1c) days, lifetime (plural)
1d) time, period (general)
1e) year
1f) temporal references
1f1) today
1f2) yesterday
1f3) tomorrow"

Here is the definition of the Greek word for "time" (χρόνος, chronos) from William Mounce's analytical lexicon: "time, whether in respect of duration or a definite point of its lapse, Mat_2:7; Mat_25:19 freq.; an epoch, era, marked duration, Act_1:7; 1Th_5:1."

Seems like if you can define something, that's a good clue that it exists. So time exists, but as a function of the space time continuum that God created, not as something God is limited by. So God existed previous to time, now exists outside of time as always, and can thus see all the ages the same, except that Jesus chose to exist in time in His incarnation.

 

[Salty]

I need some time to think about this!

 

[canadyjd]

I need some time to think about this!

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

@kv100 you seem to be referring to time as a created entity ( i think you used that word). If you ate saying there is no physical entity representing time, i will agree.

We see that occasionally in fairy takes (Father Time) depicting time as an old man.

God created the universe and He established the physical laws by which it would function.

We can measure gravity, temperature, rates of growth. We can observe the passage of time.

God also observes time. He sees the end from the beginning. The saints under the throne in heaven cry out “how long…” and God replies a little while longer.

It really makes no sense to say time doesn't exist.

I once had classmate in college express his theory that nothing really existed, except one person, and he was dreaming.

Everything and everyone that appeared to exist was just part of that person’s dream and when that person woke up, everything would vanish, except that person.

Peace to you

 

[Ascetic X]

I want to examine something we often take for granted: the existence of time itself.


The distinction is between the measurable duration and sequence of created existence and the idea that Time exists independently as something in its own right. The existence of the former does not establish the existence of the latter.

So this is what you do on Christian forums?

You post controversial nonsense to get attention and engage in quarrels.

You joined this forum yesterday at 2:53 pm — and already you have posted 3 inflammatory posts:

1. The Bible is Not Infallible
2. When Does a Human Possess Life in the Womb?
3. Time Does Not Exist

It is not worth discussing anything with you, because you make no sense.

 

[Mike B]

Time is a numerical, linear and progressive reference to the state of all matter in the
universe.

Time exists in epochs, eons, and ages. It exists in years, months, days, hours and
seconds, as well as in Planck time..right down to billions of billionths of a second.

Without the existence of time, you would not know when to show up at church, or
what your birthday is...I could go on for days..or maybe just hours.

Time is not always relative, but it is always relevant.

Furthermore, you have invested quite a bit of time into these truly odd subjects. Do you
offer anything consistent with Biblical principles?

 

[percho]

But "time" as I see it, is the word we use to describe the way changes of existence (for example, babies becoming children, children becoming adults, adults dying) are sequenced one after the other. There are plenty of references to time in the Bible. I'll just give two examples, one from each Testament:

NKJV Gen 4:3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Could those times be stated as, "and when it was suppose to take place,"?

 

[percho]

Time is a numerical, linear and progressive reference to the state of all matter in the
universe.

Time exists in epochs, eons, and ages. It exists in years, months, days, hours and
seconds, as well as in Planck time..right down to billions of billionths of a second.

Without the existence of time, you would not know when to show up at church, or
what your birthday is...I could go on for days..or maybe just hours.

Time is not always relative, but it is always relevant.

Furthermore, you have invested quite a bit of time into these truly odd subjects. Do you
offer anything consistent with Biblical principles?

It is almost, "time," to end this.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

For that matter, why is there space and why is there matter? What purpose do they serve?

 

[Ascetic X]

For that matter, why is there space and why is there matter? What purpose do they serve?

I would direct you to Genesis chapter one for answers.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I would direct you to Genesis chapter one for answers.

Of course, and I would gladly go there myself. Time began in the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth. Prior to this, there was no time because there was nothing that marked a starting or ending point whereby one could measure time but once God said "Let there be light," an indelible marker was established whereby one could measure time. Space and matter did not exist either prior to God's creation as there was no need of it. In order to create the heavens and the earth which are tangible objects, there must be matter and in order for matter to exist, there must also be space in which to put it. These are all secondary causes to "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

 

[David Lamb]

Could those times be stated as, "and when it was suppose to take place,"?

Yes, but even using the word "when" presupposes the existence of time.