Private Prayer language

[Ben1445]

You have not experienced speaking in tongues, so you seem to enjoy bashing it.

Ive never been run over by a truck either and I will warn people not to do that either.

All you need to say is you do not speak in tongues and question the practice of it.

I also warn people against the pretense of mumbling senseless spirituality.

Instead you attack it.

It may seem that way if I’m stepping on your toes.
I see it as earnestly contending for the faith.

If there is still a valid, biblical, spiritual gift of speaking and praying in tongues, your hostility toward it is clearly in opposition to the Holy Spirit.

You don’t even have the faith to claim that it is valid. You are merely superstitious.

We must be very careful not to offend the Holy Spirit, just because we have not experienced something described in the scriptures.

We may not test the spirits? We may not beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing?

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Corinthians 14

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. [PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE - the significance is understood by God]

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. [PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE]

You may repeat it often but a lie is still a lie. Tongues in Scripture is not about confusion. It is for understanding. It is also not for the believer. It is a sign for the unbeliever and therefore has no place in private prayer of Christians.

 

[Ben1445]

Here is what Paul said:

There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.

He most certainly did and you passed it right by even quoting him.

 

[Ben1445]

It is envy although you deny it.

And how many hail Mary’s would you have me say for my sins, father Jon?


You don’t know what envy is. And you certainly don’t know what I am thinking.

But while you are thinking about it, have you repented of your envying your neighbor? No doubt you will deny that you envy your neighbors wife but you do.


It would be ridiculous if i meant that and you would be incensed and rightly so.
You are telling me that I am envious of what I consider to be a work of the devil distracting Christians by calling confusion a work of God.

Again, being at a loss for words is not babbling.
You guys keep falling back on that like that is what I am talking about and I have already said that it is not.

 

[JonC]

He most certainly did and you passed it right by even quoting him.

No, he did not.

Paul said that that the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

This is the topic.

You keep drifting to Paul's instructions in the congregation.

This is what Paul said -

There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me.

This does not nullify what Paul had said earlier in the chapter. It is dealing with the congregation.

Paul does not say "tongues are a language common to man". He explains why speaking in tongues without an interpreter is improper.

You are ignoring that the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

You are ignoring the edification of the spirit by only highlighting the edification of the mind.

 

[JonC]

And how many hail Mary’s would you have me say for my sins, father Jon?


You don’t know what envy is. And you certainly don’t know what I am thinking.

But while you are thinking about it, have you repented of your envying your neighbor? No doubt you will deny that you envy your neighbors wife but you do.


It would be ridiculous if i meant that and you would be incensed and rightly so.
You are telling me that I am envious of what I consider to be a work of the devil distracting Christians by calling confusion a work of God.

Again, being at a loss for words is not babbling.
You guys keep falling back on that like that is what I am talking about and I have already said that it is not.

I wouldn't. Your sin is against God, not me.

You chose to ignore parts of His Word. You chose to judge the servants of Another.

There is no "me" in your sin.

 

[Ascetic X]

It may seem that way if I’m stepping on your toes.
I see it as earnestly contending for the faith.



We may not test the spirits?

Your frenzy to attack something you have never experienced is not testing spirits.

You keep forgetting that I do not speak in tongues, so you are not stepping on my toes.

Attacking 1 Corinthians 14 is not contending for the faith.

You may repeat it often but a lie is still a lie. Tongues in Scripture is not about confusion. It is for understanding. It is also not for the believer. It is a sign for the unbeliever and therefore has no place in private prayer of Christians.

You are calling scriptures a lie.

You persist in saying the opposite of what the scriptures say.

You have now gone to the blasphemous extreme of calling speaking in tongues a work of the devil, when Paul said it is a gift of the Spirit.


Corinthians 14

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

 

[Ben1445]

You answer to God for you.

I’m with Paul on this one.

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

[Ben1445]

Your frenzy to attack something you have never experienced is not testing spirits.

This is drama.

Don’t ever tell someone not to do something that you have never done.

Don’t tell kids not get hit by cars, unless you have been hit by a car and have the experience to know it is not good.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I do not prefer the KJV. I prefer the Greek from which the KJV was created. Too many get caught up in English words and never bother to know the meanings. (I do not believe the English words were delivered via special revelation).

I am not adequately skilled in Greek to properly parse the passage but it is clear that "unknown" was inserted and other translations speak of it being a language unknown to the listener. I believe this is implicit through the text and is why it was inserted in the first place.

Those who are more skilled in the Greek, please let me know. Seems clear to me.

No, this does not mean we all should speak in tongues. Paul was clear that not all will. It was his desire.

If tongues means "language," we all speak at least one. Seems clear to me that Paul was speaking of the ability to supernaturally speak and understand other languages that have not been learned. Paul wished that everyone had this ability though it was clear that all did not.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

No, it is not agreed (God said these were expressions for which there were no words that could be uttered). That excludes languages (as we use the word).

If you are citing Romans 8:26, where in this passage does it mention anything having to do with "Tongues?" Did I misunderstand you earlier?

Romans 8:26 (KJV) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:26 (ESV) Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

We do not know quite what to say, we are at a loss for words, so the Holy Spirit takes over and helps us along. What is so difficult to understand here? You have to read so-called "Tongues" into this passage in order to make it mean what I think you are trying to make it say!

And yes, I have experienced it! Often times you are overwhelmed, overcome with emotion to the point that you cannot even think straight or put two coherent words together and all you can think to say is perhaps "O God, PLEASE HELP!"

Overcome with emotion? Most likely! Some sort of ecstatic utterance (incoherent babbling that is passed off as being "Tongues"), I think not!

 

[JonC]

I am not adequately skilled in Greek to properly parse the passage but it is clear that "unknown" was inserted and other translations speak of it being a language unknown to the listener. I believe this is implicit through the text and is why it was inserted in the first place.

Those who are more skilled in the Greek, please let me know. Seems clear to me.

If tongues means "language," we all speak at least one. Seems clear to me that Paul was speaking of the ability to supernaturally speak and understand other languages that have not been learned. Paul wished that everyone had this ability though it was clear that all did not.

Perhaps. Even knowing Greek there is room for various interpretations.

But we still have tongues in prayer being the intercession of the Spirit expressing what is impossible to be expressed in words.

That is my focus here.

Has any one of us really never been in prayer and stopped speaking or thinking words because words could simply not express the prayer?

That is an experience common, I think, to every believer. We are in prayer, in communion with God, yet words are impossible to communicate the prayer.

When that happens to me I find myself making a sound (not like those on TV dpeaking in "tongues", more a hum). I think it is a human response, maybe just a "place keeper" as we express what we have no words to articulate. We look for words that cannot come as the walk is deeper than words can express. The prayer moves from cognitive to spiritual.

That has happened to every believer, I think, that spends any significant amount of time in prayer.

And that is how I view this "prayer language". The sounds made is not what matters. It is the spirit and the Spirit in us. And we walk away strengthened in our spirit.


This is different from the gift of tongues in a congregation (something I know nothing about but accept because of God's Word).

 

[JonC]

If you are citing Romans 8:26, where in this passage does it mention anything having to do with "Tongues?" Did I misunderstand you earlier?


We do not know quite what to say, we are at a loss for words, so the Holy Spirit takes over and helps us along. What is so difficult to understand here? You have to read so-called "Tongues" into this passage in order to make it mean what I think you are trying to make it say!

And yes, I have experienced it! Often times you are overwhelmed, overcome with emotion to the point that you cannot even think straight or put two coherent words together and all you can think to say is perhaps "O God, PLEASE HELP!"

Overcome with emotion? Most likely! Some sort of ecstatic utterance (incoherent babbling that is passed off as being "Tongues"), I think not!

It has nothing to do with tongues as spoken in congregations (I only know what the Bible says about that and I accept it as true, but have absolutely no experience with tongues. In fact, I do not believe the gift is applicable in most Western settings).

I am not talking about being overcome with emotion. I am talking about what you have most likely experienced.

Think of a time you have come before God in prayer. You praise God, contemplate His glory, make your petitions known. But then there is a time while in prayer it becomes impossible to express your spirit in words. You may not even know what to pray for. Yet you continue praying. No words, just your spirit and God.

That is what I am talking about.

 

[JonC]

You answer to God for you.

I’m with Paul on this one.

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

I am as well. Both are equally vital to the life of a believer and one professing to be Christian who neglects either is stagnant.

Paul prayed with understand and with the spirit.

Too many "Christians" deny the spiritual for the cognitive (a result of rationalism - if it cannot be expressed in the flesh it does not exist kind of thing).


I believe most Christians (all who are mature) have experienced this. We pray in the mind but also in the spirit. We express our prayer in words but at some point our prayer continues in a way words cannot express.

 

[JonC]

This is drama.

Don’t ever tell someone not to do something that you have never done.

Don’t tell kids not get hit by cars, unless you have been hit by a car and have the experience to know it is not good.

@Ascetic X is spot on.

We are not talking about getting hit by a car. We are talking about spiritual life, about praying to God with our minds and our spirit.

You have never experienced the spiritual in prayer, which is unfortunate. But that does not negate that most Christians have.


A couple of years ago I argued wirh a member (can't remember who) about alpha particles. He believed they penetrate metal. I explained paper can shield alpha particles.

He could not believe that. I know that because I use paper to shield alpha on a daily basis.

If he could work with me and see it for himself he would believe it out of experience.

It is the Thomas issue. Unless some "put their hands in the wound" they cannot believe.

 

[David Lamb]

This is drama.

Don’t ever tell someone not to do something that you have never done.

Don’t tell kids not get hit by cars, unless you have been hit by a car and have the experience to know it is not good.

Why ever not? My parents had never been in a road traffic accident, yet they could still tell me and my younger brothers the importance of remembering the highway code to avoid getting hit by a car. Similarly, they taught us to be careful with fire. It wasn't necessary for them personally to have experienced burns to tell us that fire can be dangerous.

 

[John of Japan]

I only posted on this thread once--really busy right now. But I want to input a couple of things that have not been mentioned.

1. The tongues I've heard and read have not been a language. I am a linguist in Japanese, and teach two linguistic courses in translation, so I believe I'm qualified to say this: "tongues" are generally not a language. There is a certain syntactical and semantic structure that words must have to be a language. The typical tongues I've heard and seen do not have that structure. I'm fluent in Japanese, teach Greek, and have studied Hebrew, Latin and Chinese.

2. God invented language for communication. If the suggested "words" do not communicate, either they do not constitute an actual language, or the hearer does not know the language. Never does a person speak in a language they do not understand unless it is the Acts 2 scenario: a temporary, God given language for the purpose of winning someone to Christ. I know a young single missionary lady in Africa who once met a woman whose language she did not know. She spoke to the African lady in English, and led her to Christ, though neither one knew any language spoken by the other.

Once years ago here on the BB a young man, knowing I'm a linguist, asked me to evaluate his "private tongue." I did so and told him I saw no semantic or syntactical form in his "prayer language." That was enough to make him quit the practice, and left him a better man for not being deceived.

 

[Ben1445]

@Ascetic X is spot on.

We are not talking about getting hit by a car. We are talking about spiritual life, about praying to God with our minds and our spirit.

You have never experienced the spiritual in prayer, which is unfortunate. But that does not negate that most Christians have.


A couple of years ago I argued wirh a member (can't remember who) about alpha particles. He believed they penetrate metal. I explained paper can shield alpha particles.

He could not believe that. I know that because I use paper to shield alpha on a daily basis.

If he could work with me and see it for himself he would believe it out of experience.

It is the Thomas issue. Unless some "put their hands in the wound" they cannot believe.

So it would be okay to make up your own religion as long as you call it spirituality understood?

 

[Ben1445]

Why ever not? My parents had never been in a road traffic accident, yet they could still tell me and my younger brothers the importance of remembering the highway code to avoid getting hit by a car. Similarly, they taught us to be careful with fire. It wasn't necessary for them personally to have experienced burns to tell us that fire can be dangerous.

Sorry. I got lost in the conversation and replied with sarcasm. I don’t actually mean that.
I said it because I see a danger in taking babbling tongues into your closet and putting a stamp of approval on “private tongues” where they are not acceptable publicly.

What I was told is that since I don’t babble in private, I’m not allowed to voice my opinions or beliefs.

I said that as a check to what has now even been compared to not believing in Jesus.
@JonC
I do find it to be an offensive comparison to say that if you don’t believe in tongues it is like not believing in the risen Savior.

 

[Ben1445]

The tongues I've heard and read have not been a language. I am a linguist in Japanese, and teach two linguistic courses in translation, so I believe I'm qualified to say this: "tongues" are generally not a language. There is a certain syntactical and semantic structure that words must have to be a language. The typical tongues I've heard and seen do not have that structure. I'm fluent in Japanese, teach Greek, and have studied Hebrew, Latin and Chinese.

So are you saying that Azusa St. tongues are not language or that the biblical use of the word “tongues” does not mean language.

Based on the rest of your post, I am sure I understand you. I just want clarification.

 

[John of Japan]

So are you saying that Azusa St. tongues are not language or that the biblical use of the word “tongues” does not mean language.

Based on the rest of your post, I am sure I understand you. I just want clarification.

Both. The Azusa St. believers thought they were speaking an actual language, and thought that their missionaries would then be able to witness on the field without language study. (I can document this.) That did not happen.

The Greek word glossa (tongue) means language in the NT in every case. I've found no evidence for Pentecostal type tongues in 1st century literature. So the idea of a "prayer language" not understood by the speaker is nowhere in the Bible any other ancient document.