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In defense of the King James Bible and doctrine

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
We of the KJV ONLY belief believe what God said when He said "He will preserve His word" We believe God preserved His inherant breathed ....
and that is exactly where we disagee!

The beliefs of the King James translators provide insight into their approach.
  • Verbal Inspiration — All translators believed in the verbal inspiration of the Scriptures, affirming the divine origin of the text they were translating.
  • No Claim of Divine Inspiration — There is no evidence that the translators claimed their work was divinely inspired or inerrant.
  • Qualifications — The translators were among the most learned men of their time, well-qualified for the task.
  • Prayerful Approach — Each translator was a man of prayer, indicating their reverence for the task, though not claiming divine guidance.
 

Armchair Apologist

Well-Known Member
Dear Brother David Lamb ... you asked a great questtion "Why not translate the original Hebrew and Greek directly into Spanish?"
We of the KJV ONLY belief believe what God said when He said "He will preserve His word" We believe God preserved His inherant breathed Word in the English language in the KJV, just like He preserved His word thousands of years ago in every major world Western language.
Since it is impossible to translate exactly from one language ((Greek into English for example)) into another, God chose to preserve His bible in the KJV. Yes while I realize this idea will cause many to scribble furiously,:)> It is a question that needed to be answered! Thankyou Bro David :)
You acknowledge that it is impossible to translate exactly from one language to another which therefore makes a "perfect" translation impossible unless God "divinely inspired" the translation of the King James Bible! This matter of "secondary" or "double" inspiration is a sticky point between the Ruckmanite KJVO types (who promote this) and the more mainstream KJVO crowd (Pensacola Christian College, West Coast Baptist College, Heartland Baptist Bible College, Crown College, Etc.)

If you actually believe this (double-inspiration) then I would say that the onus is upon you to make the case for this.

I believe you would have to also give explanation regarding all of the variants in the King James Bibles that are in circulation today (Word, Thomas Nelson, Cambridge, Oxford, Bearing Precious Seed, etc.)
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We of the KJV ONLY belief believe what God said when He said "He will preserve His word" We believe God preserved His inherant breathed Word in the English language in the KJV, just like He preserved His word thousands of years ago in every major world Western language.
Your view of preservation seems to be inconsistent. According to what the Scriptures state and according to the definition of preservation, would not a consistent, sound, scriptural view of Bible preservation be true both before, in, and after 1611?

Baptist pastor and KJV defender Glenn Conjurske suggested that many KJV-only advocates “have never yet understood so much as the meaning of the word ‘preservation’” (Olde Paths, Jan., 1997, p. 14; Bible Version, p. 177). Glenn Conjurske asserted: “In its very nature preservation must be continuous, from beginning to end” (Ibid.). Glenn Conjurske added: “The ‘final form’ of anything which is preserved is just the same as it was the first day of its existence, and every day thereafter. This is the meaning of ‘preservation, and is certainly necessary to their doctrine of perfect preservation” (Ibid.; Bible Version, p. 177). Glenn Conjurske concluded: “The very meaning of ‘preservation’ necessitates that he [God] should keep it pure always, and not merely that he should restore it to purity after the passing of hundreds of years” (Bible Version, p. 63). D. A. Waite asserted: “Bible ‘preservation’ that is not ‘perfect’ is not ‘preservation’” (Fundamentalist Deception on Bible Preservation, p. 117). Glenn Conjurske asserted: “We can have no restoration, no final form, no coming into being, of anything which has been preserved in perfection” (Bible Version, p. 178).

Glenn Conjurske wrote: “If God has actually promised to preserve his word in perfect purity, 1611 is much too late to begin keeping that promise” (Olde Paths, Sept., 1995, p. 198; Bible Version, p. 63). In another issue, Glenn Conjurske asserted: “The King-James-Only traditionalists have ransacked both Testaments—and wrested and contorted them too—in order to produce some promise or prophecy which will secure the perfection of their standard” (Sept., 1996, p. 196; Bible Version, p. 16). Glenn Conjurske maintained: “The assumption that we may apply the supposed promises to one Bible, and not to another, is absolutely groundless. No promise of Scripture is dated, and if any promise of Scripture secures the infallible working of the Holy Ghost for the production of a perfect translation, that promise must be as applicable to one version as to another” (pp. 196-197).
 

Lewis HB

New Member
You all are saying that you don't know what the word of God is? That all you have is confusion? Just a host of opinions where no one really knows anything? That is a really sad place to be.
All this kinda reminds me of what Satan asked Eve "hath God said?"
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
You all are saying that you don't know what the word of God is? That all you have is confusion? Just a host of opinions where no one really knows anything? That is a really sad place to be.
All this kinda reminds me of what Satan asked Eve "hath God said?"
Why are you that naive to believe that we believe that? We study the Word of God. Because a Bible may choose other words does not make it more confusing.


Here is what the KJV Translators said under the section called

"An Answer to the Imputations of Our Adversaries"

"Now to the latter we answer; that we do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set forth by men of our profession, (for we have seen none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. As the King's speech, which he uttereth in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King's speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense."
 
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Lewis HB

New Member
May I repeat your quote ""Because a Bible may choose other words do not make it more confusing.""
May I point out that >>>other words give other meanings?<<< Change critical doctrines??

All of the new "bibles" omit verses( yes many thousands of them) to change the context and therefore doctrine.
A CLASSIC EXAMPLE: in Acts chapter Eight ALL of the new bibles OMIT verse 37 to promote the false doctrine the baptism saves a person!
This happens in hundreds of places in the New testament! The KJV says:

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Reference Romans 10:9-13

Baptism has nothing to do with salvation; it is what a beliver does to publically proclaim his saving faith in Jesus.

Lewis
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
May I repeat your quote ""Because a Bible may choose other words do not make it more confusing.""
May I point out that >>>other words give other meanings?<<< Change critical doctrines??

All of the new "bibles" omit verses( yes many thousands of them) to change the context and therefore doctrine.
A CLASSIC EXAMPLE: in Acts chapter Eight ALL of the new bibles OMIT verse 37 to promote the false doctrine the baptism saves a person!
This happens in hundreds of places in the New testament! The KJV says:

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Reference Romans 10:9-13

Baptism has nothing to do with salvation; it is what a beliver does to publically proclaim his saving faith in Jesus.

Lewis
The extra words in Acts are missing from 90% of the Greek manuscripts. God did indeed preserve his Words in the Greek, the Language God used to write the Original Greek New Testament in. If Original, there would be no reason they are missing from so many. It is far more likely the words were added in a smaller number of Greek Manuscripts.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You all are saying that you don't know what the word of God is? That all you have is confusion? Just a host of opinions where no one really knows anything? That is a really sad place to be.
All this kinda reminds me of what Satan asked Eve "hath God said?"
That is not at all what is being said. You misunderstand or misrepresent what others are saying.

These scriptural instructions and truths provide sound guidance concerning how to know the words which the LORD has or has not spoken (Deut. 18:20-22, Jer. 23:16, Jer. 23:35, Ezek. 22:28, Isa. 8:20, 1 Thess. 5:21, 1 John 4:1). Does following these instructions or this guidance minister doubts concerning God’s words? Would words that go beyond those words that God actually gave to the prophets and apostles be considered the inspired, pure words of God (Num. 22:18)? Was God ministering doubts and questions about His words or was God advocating the practice of textual criticism when He gave His instructions (Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32, Prov. 30:6, Eccl. 3:14, Rev. 22:18-19)?

Was God exalting textual criticism by giving his instructions and guidance concerning how to know the words which God has or has not spoken? According to the Scriptures themselves, there is such a thing as the possible adding of words in copies or in Bible translations just as there is the possible omitting of words in copies or in Bible translations. There is also the possibility that words can be diminished or changed by copiers or by translators, introducing possible errors into a copy or into a translation. It can be properly and legitimately concluded from the Scriptures that God has not directly spoken or breathed out words added by men and that any words omitted by copiers should be restored (Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32, Prov. 30:6, Prov. 30:6, Rev. 22:18). According to clear scriptural truth, words added by men cannot soundly be considered words given by inspiration of God. According to these scriptural truths, adding words would be just as wrong as omitting words.

Does obeying God’s instructions by removing added words, restoring omitted words, and correcting diminished or changed words actually destroy the authority of the preserved Scriptures and question what God said?

I disagree with your seeming opinion that would in effect suggest that obeying and following God's instructions is doing what the serpent said in Genesis 3.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
My apologies. I had said about 10% of Greek Manuscripts contained Acts 8:37. It is actually 15%.


Acts 8:37 is only supported by about 15% of the Greek manuscripts of Acts, but it was used by Irenaeus (in Book 3, 12:8 of Against Heresies, written c. 180, long before the earliest existing manuscript of this part of Acts was made), by Cyprian (in the 200s, in Book Three of his Testimonies, Treatise 12, chapter 43), by Pontus the Deacon (in the mid-200s), by Pacian of Barcelona (late 300s), and by Augustine (early 400s); it is also in the Coptic (Egyptian) manuscript known as the Glazier Codex (made in the 400s or 500s
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
All of the new "bibles" omit verses( yes many thousands of them) to change the context and therefore doctrine.


Lewis
Lewis, your accusation or charge is false. What you assert is not true of all new post-1611 English Bibles. You have been misinformed by unreliable KJV-only web sites or KJV-only books, and you bear false witness in disobedience to a clear command of God.

English Bible translations such as the 1833 Webster’s Bible, the 1842 revision of the KJV by Baptists, the 1962 Teen-age Version of the Holy Bible by Jay Green, the 1982 NKJV, the 1986 Literal Translation in The Interlinear Bible, the 1990 Modern King James Version, the 1994 21st Century King James Version, the 1998 Third Millennium Bible, the King James 2000 Version, 2000/2013 Jubilee Bible, 2006 New Authorized Version—AV7 NT, the 2010 KJ3 Literal Translation, the 2014 Modern English Version, the 2022 Simplified KJV, Nick Sayers’ 2023 King James Version New Testament, and the 2024 edition of the Modern English Bible can be considered as being based on the same basic multiple original-language texts of Scripture as the KJV, and these English Bibles do not remove any verses found in the KJV.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
All of the new "bibles" omit verses( yes many thousands of them) to change the context and therefore doctrine.


Lewis
Lewis, you may sincerely believe what you posted, but sincere belief does not make an assertion true. You have been misinformed, and what you assert is not true. The doctrine of truth taught in the KJV does not support and approve your making non-true claims. I would assume that you love the truth, but your refusal to accept the truth and correct non-true claims reflects poorly on you.

Here is a clear example of a modern English Bible translation that does not omit verses--the KJ3 Literal Translation by Jay Green.

In the preface to his English translation, Jay Green asserted: “This entire KJ3 Literal Translation Bible is translated using the words of today and translated from the same Hebrew and Greek manuscripts and texts used by the translators of the Authorized/King James Version. In this Bible, God’s very words are translated word-for-word with the literal meanings given of each of the Hebrew and Greek words used in writing the Bible” (p. xvi). Jay Green claimed: “This is the first time ever a translator has produced a Bible with all of God’s words translated into English, all of them” (p. xv). Jay Green declared: “This is the newest and most accurate English version of the Bible” (p. xiii). Jay Green contended that those who read his translation acknowledge “that the Holy Spirit speaks to them through this Bible like no other Bible they have used” (p. xvi).
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Dear Brother David Lamb ... you asked a great questtion "Why not translate the original Hebrew and Greek directly into Spanish?"
We of the KJV ONLY belief believe what God said when He said "He will preserve His word" We believe God preserved His inherant breathed Word in the English language in the KJV, just like He preserved His word thousands of years ago in every major world Western language.
Since it is impossible to translate exactly from one language ((Greek into English for example)) into another, God chose to preserve His bible in the KJV. Yes while I realize this idea will cause many to scribble furiously,:)> It is a question that needed to be answered! Thankyou Bro David :)
Thank you. I don't agree that when God promised to preserve His word, He meant that He would preserve it only in a 17th century translation into English, and that speakers of all other languages would have to rely on translations from that English translation.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May I repeat your quote ""Because a Bible may choose other words do not make it more confusing.""
May I point out that >>>other words give other meanings?<<< Change critical doctrines??

All of the new "bibles" omit verses( yes many thousands of them) to change the context and therefore doctrine.
A CLASSIC EXAMPLE: in Acts chapter Eight ALL of the new bibles OMIT verse 37 to promote the false doctrine the baptism saves a person!
This happens in hundreds of places in the New testament! The KJV says:

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Reference Romans 10:9-13

Baptism has nothing to do with salvation; it is what a beliver does to publically proclaim his saving faith in Jesus.

Lewis
That is too sweeping a generalisation. You claimed: "A CLASSIC EXAMPLE: in Acts chapter Eight ALL of the new bibles OMIT verse 37 to promote the false doctrine the baptism saves a person!" But all of the new Bibles do not omit that verse. Here it is in various translations newer than the KJV:

NKJV Act 8:37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

ASV Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

LSB Act 8:37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]

MKJV Act 8:37 Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, it is lawful. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

YLT Act 8:37 And Philip said, 'If thou dost believe out of all the heart, it is lawful;' and he answering said, 'I believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God;'

That is five modern translations which include the verse, and I expect there are others that I don't have access to that also include it. So it is just not true to say that all of the new Bibles omit verse 37. They clearly don't.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
a very partial list of verses in the KJV that have been removed in the new bibles
see List of New Testament Verses Not Included In Modern English Translations - Christian Publishing House Blog
Again, not all the new Bibles. I have looked at the 16 verses listed in your link, with the following results:

Matthew 17:21 is in 8 of the modern translations I have.

Matthew 18:11 is in 7.

Matthew 23:14 is in 8.

Mark 7:16 is in 8.

Mark 9:44 is in 8.

Mark 9:46 is in 8.

Mark 11:26 is in 8.

Mark 15:28 is in 7.

Luke 17:36 is in 5.

John 5:3b-4 is in 8.

Acts 8:37 is in 5.

Acts 15:34 is in 6.

Acts 24:6-8 is in 5 (several others omit verse 7, but include verses 6 and 8).

Acts 28:29 is in 7.

Romans 16:24 is in 8.

1 John 5:7-8 is in 13!
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Looked at the link Salty provided, and liked what I saw. I'd like to buy a
copy of it, but it seems none of the mainstream publishers have picked it
up yet.
The KJ3 Literal Translation by Jay Green (1918-2008) was perhaps last printed in 2010. I have seen a copy of its New Testament for sale on amazon. You have to look for used copies on ebay or other places to find one. I purchased one last year. I had ordered a copy of it from Jay Green many years ago, but I never received it.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
I think many miss the deepest and strongest reason any English bible. including the KJV, is flawed based on the language in which it is written

Many excuses have been made by those who worship a particular version. but it does not negate the fact the English language is an inferior language, to properly interpret the Greek text into English is almost possible. but it would need to be expanded, in which then we have complaints its not a word for word translation.

the biggest example I have is the word Love.

Jesus asked peter. do you love me, Peter replied ye Lord you know I love you.

the problem is in the original Greek. Jesus asked Peter if he Agape him, Peters response what Phileo.

Agape and Phileo are not the same.. Yet any english bible we have translates them both with one word. I remember the first time I opened into the Greek this passage. and say the true love and forgiveness of God. Peter could not even admit he agape the Lord. Yet Jesus told him, I still want you to feed my people..

this is missing in all english texts.. About the only way to properly interpret this passage would be to expand the word love into what they greek term actually means.

But agai8n, this would cause an uproar. because it would no longer technically be a word for word interpretation
 
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