Too free or not too free, that is the question.

[King James Bond]

Ray,

You said;

Yes, God saves minors in cases like this

Well how do you account for your words?

Without the use of human volition no sinner can receive Jesus as Savior.

A disposition to believe comes from the ministry of the Holy Spirit and in finality by the movement of the human will to receive Him. Every sinner has a free will and has a human volition. When sinners hear the Gospel they are called on by God to decide where they want to spend eternity.

What we have benn saying all along is that God saves. All that is required of any person to be saved is that they are dead.

We know that from Adam comes people born into a sin nature.

So it is NOT human choice that saves. You have just proved what many of us have said all along.....God saves!

For those capable of believing He makes believers out of them.

All His work.

KJB

 

[HanSola2000]

I have that Henry Alford qoute and he DOES NOT say the Greek supports Calvinism in Acts 13:48, but the OPPOSITE. The EXPOSITORS GREEK NEW TESTAMENT says the same in Vol 2, p.300.

 

[Ray Berrian]

King James Bond,

Many Arminians believe as do you that we are saved by God alone. I too, believe this.

You asked about a baby and gave you a Biblical explanation; what do you want out of me.

Down syndrome people, the insane and babies/minors are covered by Jesus' atonement, because they do not have the cognitive skills to make human decisions.

Sinners who rebel against the Lord's calling by the Spirit of God until the hour of their death, will step into Hell because God was and will always remain God of love and Divine justice.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by HanSola2000:
I have that Henry Alford qoute and he DOES NOT say the Greek supports Calvinism in Acts 13:48, but the OPPOSITE. The EXPOSITORS GREEK NEW TESTAMENT says the same in Vol 2, p.300.

So do I. It says "as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed." See the order? 1. disposed to eternal life. 2. believed.

First they were disposed to eternal life, then they believed. Just as Alford says.

 

[Ray Berrian]

TCassidy,

We know in Acts 13 we know that those who received eternal life were the people who yielded to the calling of God the Spirit and believed.

You please, explain the Jews throughout history reaching back into the O.T. who rejected Jehovah Lord and under the New Covenant also rejected the Messiah/Lord our Savior. Reread Acts 7:51.

In Stephen's apology/defense of the faith said,

'Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do ALWAYS RESIST the HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT as YOUR FATHERS DID, AND SO ARE YOU.'

This is where we Arminians along with other passages believe that it is possible and in most sinner's lives it will be that they reject the Gospel unto salvation. Doctrinally, it is called, Resistible Grace.

 

[King James Bond]

Ray,

Thanks for the answer.

Now do you think that every baby is saved by God and why?

KJB

 

[Pastor Larry]

It cracks me up that you find it necessary to blame me for your mistake.

Where did I blame you for my mistake? I didn't make a mistake. You misread what I said. Everyone else here seems to be able to see it. They konw what I said, and it was cleared up in subsequent posts. Mike, you have picked the wrong horse to ride again. Go after something legitimate if you are going to debate.

Your subsequent post.

quote: My only point, Mike, was to point out that Acts 13:38 says one thing, and you say another. You can say it is only one verse, and that is fine. But it is still one verse with the words that God inspired. If God had wanted to say what you said, he certainly could have. He decided not to.

First we weren't talking about Act 13:38 but 13:48. And the verse doesn't say what you and Cassidy says it does at all. It says they believed and as many that did were ordained to eternal life.

No it doesn't. It says "...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." The appointing preceded the belief in the context of hte verse, once you accept that verb tenses mean things.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;
I admit that I'm no Greek scholar but neither are you . You even disagree with what is writen in the Greek.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

You even disagree with what is writen in the Greek.

Which part do I disagree with? And if you are no Greek scholar, then how do you know I disagree with it?

 

[Ray Berrian]

King James Bond,

God did not give us a whole lot of reasons why or if He saves all babies to eternal life. The story of King David shows that in this case He did save the baby and give that person everlasting life.

With this one example, I believe many Christians would agree they believe God to be a loving and merciful Person toward those who do not have cognitive skills.

Should we believe that He would be vengeful or vicious toward any of the babies?

Ray

 

[2BHizown]

Actually that verse, Acts 13:48 was the one that gave me a great WOW moment and sent me on a search with prayer that the verse and others that verified that doctrine would be shown to me. This sent me on a search leading into the doctrines of grace! Wonder of wonders! So many other verses that give that same great doctrine!

 

[HanSola2000]

Cass you are twisting what Alford said. He shows, FROMTHE CONTEXT, that the Jews judgedthemselves unworthy of eternallife and thrust the Word of God from them. But the Gentiles had no such hostile attitude and as many as had a desiring or disposed to eternal life--i.e., the message of the apostles, they believed.

You are misrepresenting Alford.

And think about this. If the verse means literally what most people think as it is rendered in the KJV, then NONE OF US ARE NOW SAVED. How so? Becasue it says " AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE... what did that group do? believed. How many? As many as were ordained to eternal life. Do you get this? It means that all the elect were there that day, and they believed. No more salvation after this, because as many as were ordained to eternal life believed! Hello! If this verse actually taught pre-ordination to life by God upon man, then election was closed on that day.

You see, there is no ordination to eternal life here, but a dispostion to eternal life, IN CONTRAST to the Jews, who were hostile to it.

If you're gonna take it the way the KJV seems to read, take it all the way. Salvation ended for all man here, for AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE...this is the whole group oif the elect, BLELEIVED, past tense. So we're all lost and non-elect.

 

[King James Bond]

Ray,

My point is that God can save without the consent of a human being (that is if we both agree babies are humans).

If that is the case.....how do you know it is not God that saves all humans regardless of their consent?

That means He does all that is needed to save them.

Vengeance belongs to the Lord.

KJB

 

[4His_glory]

Han,

All the Calvinists I know are some of the most evangelistic people I have ever met, so your poppycock idea that they do not desire people to be saved is wrong.

All of the great revivals of history as well as the great missionary movements were brought about by men who would be classified as Calvinist.

This is the problem with many of you people hear, you are ignorant of what is commonly called Calvinism, not to mention history.

 

[Ray Berrian]

4His--glory,

John and Chares Wesley were, thank God, worlds apart from Calvinism.

The Methodist Church used to have more churches in the United States than any other denomination.

The Catholic Church in the 21st century is more Arminian than leaning toward Calvinism.

The Wesleyan Church, Nazarene Church and Free Methodist Church and most Pentecostals believe in Arminianism rather than Calvinism.

Now, that accounts for mega millions of Christians. And I am sure more than some on this board do not even think some Roman Catholics are saved?

Now what was that about Calvinistic missions? Just so we have a little balance as to other denominations that are bringing people to Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
John and Chares Wesley were, thank God, worlds apart from Calvinism.

Nope. John was an Arminian, but Charles was a Calvinist. That is clear from the words of the many wonderful songs he wrote. Especially "And Can it Be."

And can it be that I should gain
an interest in the Savior's blood!
Died he for me? who caused his pain!
For me? who him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

'Tis mystery all: th' Immortal dies!
Who can explore his strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
to sound the depths of love divine.
'Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.
'Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.

He left his Father's throne above
(so free, so infinite his grace!),
emptied himself of all but love,
and bled for Adam's helpless race.
'Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!
'Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
fast bound in sin and nature's night;
thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in him, is mine;
alive in him, my living Head,
and clothed in righteousness divine,
bold I approach th' eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th' eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Thanks for the inspiration coming from Charles Wesley. I find nothing in that hymn that is unorthodox.

One for the Wesley's! As you know their mother was an instrument in the Lord's hands in bring these men to Jesus Christ. Here is one for all Christian mothers!!

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
If one believes in irresistable grace then Jesus was not God because Judas rebelled.

Only if you don't understand what "irresistable grace" means.

</font>[/QUOTE]So is this a case of redefining English?

 

[4His_glory]

Ray,

Don't you can not argue with history. Almost all of the church planting done in early America was done by particular Baptists. They certainly were Calvinistic, in fact the Arminian churches were doing little regarding evangelism in early America.

The Methodist Church used to have more churches in the United States than any other denomination.

Give me some proof of this, but even if it is true it does not discount what I said. William Carrey and Andrew Fuller sparked the modern missions movement, both were Calvinistic. The Great Awakening took place when men like Edwards and Whitefield, both strong Calvinists, were preaching the unsearchable riches of Christ.

Adoniaram Judson, America's first Baptist missionary was a Calvinist.

Need I go on?

Oh,and lets not forget the church in Jerusalem, where the Lord added to the church such as should be saved.

Really though numbers do not matter, who cares if there a bunch of Arminian churches in our land, whats important is that some hold to the truth.

 

[King James Bond]

4His_glory,

Ray,

Don't you can not argue with history. Almost all of the church planting done in early America was done by particular Baptists. They certainly were Calvinistic, in fact the Arminian churches were doing little regarding evangelism in early America.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Methodist Church used to have more churches in the United States than any other denomination.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Give me some proof of this, but even if it is true it does not discount what I said. William Carrey and Andrew Fuller sparked the modern missions movement, both were Calvinistic. The Great Awakening took place when men like Edwards and Whitefield, both strong Calvinists, were preaching the unsearchable riches of Christ.

Adoniaram Judson, America's first Baptist missionary was a Calvinist.

Need I go on?

Oh,and lets not forget the church in Jerusalem, where the Lord added to the church such as should be saved.

AMEN!

Don't forget the Huguenots!

I think they were actually some of the very first Christians to use Bible tracts! They used them with Canadian indians.

http://www.hightowertrail.com/Huguent.htm

All glory to God!

KJB