Too free or not too free, that is the question.

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
You can believe that if you want to but to me it's nonsense. Originally the word believe comes before ordained. Which is the opposite arrangement of what you claim.

Once again you have publicly displayed the fact that you know absolutely nothing about New Testament Greek. Larry already correctly explained to you that word order in Greek is meaningless. What matters is a rule of grammar called "CNG" which stands for "case, number, & gender." Any first year Greek student knows the mantra, "words that are used together go together." Had you ever studied Greek you would know that. The verb forms make it clear which is cause and which is effect. It is clear that it was the "ordained to eternal life" that caused them to "believe(d)."

 

[whetstone]

I have heard one argument that says 'the word ordained here means "Had a mind to" which means the verse would say "as many as had a mind to accepted Christ that day." ' what do you think of this position Thomas? (As I am no Greek scholar by any stretch)

 

[Pastor Larry]

According to modern Greek, maybe, but ancient Greeks did not hand down any dictionaries or Gramar books did they? So in reality no one knows it's just a guess.

No, actually there is no guessing involved. We know this from years of study of grammar in all language.

Originally the word believe comes before ordained. Which is the opposite arrangement of what you claim.

Go back and look at what I claimed. My claim had nothing to do with the word order in the verse. My claim dealt with the chronological or logical order between the verbs. Just becomse something comes first in word order, doesn't mean it happens first.

Here's a couple of examples that will illustrate it:

Acts 13:29 "When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.


By your reckoning, since "carried out" comes before "was written," therefore they must have carried it out before it was written. You can see that doesn't make sense.

Luke 18:14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other;

If you are correct above, this man went to his house and then was justified. Yet it is clear that he was first justified and then went to his house.

Both of these examples are the exact verb construction found in Acts 13:48. You have an aorist active indicative verb followed by an aorist passive (or middle) participle. You see, word order does not necessarily indicate a chronological order.

Your position is grammatically incorrect.

The theory that we are ordained first in order to believe isn't true.

But that is exactly what the verse says. Go back and read it. It does not say that as many as believed were ordained, or became ordained. It says as many as were ordained believed.

I hope you noticed that I didn't fall apart over Act 13:48.

I also notice you haven't yet given an answer for it.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
I really get tired of people proclaiming free-will.

My favorite movie is Free Willy.

One person on this board claims that God wants to save all people meaning each and every person.

Probably more than one, since scriptuer says plainly that God desires that no one should perish.

But the problem we have is it does not save everybody.

How is this a problem? As a parent, I can tell you that it takes more love to let a child go than it does to make them stay against their will. God is our parent. WHy would itbe less so for him?

It would seem God just has not figured out who needs a little more and which others need a little less.

That's a bit of a twist meant to support the hypercalvinist view, methinks. A hypercalvinist can't have it both ways. They will have us believe in an unjust God, but not believe in a God capable of allowing his will to be done and give us free will at the same time.

Look, I'm a Calvinist, but I don't dismiss that I have free will and responsibility to accept or reject God. The hypercalvinist will have me be a mindless automoton.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by whetstone:
I have heard one argument that says 'the word ordained here means "Had a mind to" which means the verse would say "as many as had a mind to accepted Christ that day." ' what do you think of this position Thomas? (As I am no Greek scholar by any stretch)

The Greek word is tetagmenoi which is the perfect, passive, participle of tasso meaning to place in order or to arrange. The fact that it is perfect tense suggests it was something completed in the past and was not repeated. The fact that it is passive voice means it was something that was done to the person, and not something the person did to or for himself. I am not sure "had a mind to" is accurate. If they were "given the mind to" it would be more in keeping with the passive nature of the voice.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Cassidy;

Once again you have publicly displayed the fact that you know absolutely nothing about New Testament Greek.

What's really funny here is the Fact that you think you know it all. I'm not impressed by what you think you know, at all. It's true that I'm no greek scholar. Yet I'll bet you don't have a PHD in it either. I know Larry doesn't. So give me one good reason why I should take your word for it. I can get just as slanderous as you, but I see that only destroys my witness. One who has Christ should be more about spreading the gospel than worring about my education don't you think? You haven't yet had a decent conversation with Ray or my self without something demeaning comming from your hatred of both of us. You're just a Calvinist that that likes to bragg about what you think, you know. Think and do are two different things. So while you're sitting there trying to convince me and others the Chronology in the greek is backwards to what we have in English. I'm just sitting here laughing at you while you squirm over it.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
What's really funny here is the Fact that you think you know it all.

Nope. The older I get the more I realize just how much I don't know.

I'm not impressed by what you think you know, at all.

Neither am I.

It's true that I'm no greek scholar.

I noticed that!

Yet I'll bet you don't have a PHD in it either.

Nope, and never claimed to.

I know Larry doesn't.

And he never claimed to either. But I know where Larry went to Seminary, and who some of his Professors were. I studied under some of them before they moved to Michigan. And I know the quality of the education Larry got from those men. Trust his judgment when it comes to Greek. He studied under some of the best.

So give me one good reason why I should take your word for it.

You shouldn't. But neither should you pretend to know something you don't. If you don't want to take somebody else's word for it find a good Seminary and spend 3 years learning Greek. Then you won't have to listen to anybody.

I can get just as slanderous as you, but I see that only destroys my witness.

Oh, no. I bow to your superior abilities in that area!

One who has Christ should be more about spreading the gospel than worring about my education don't you think?

One who has Christ should understand the gospel so he spreads the truth of God instead of the fables of men.

You haven't yet had a decent conversation with Ray or my self without something demeaning comming from your hatred of both of us.

Wrong again. Look at my most recent post to Ray.

You're just a Calvinist that that likes to bragg about what you think, you know.

No, I am not even a Calvinist! I am an Historic, Particular Baptist. And I like to brag on Christ. Don't you?

Think and do are two different things.

I know, but you should try to do both. Remember what the bible says about "zeal but not according to knowledge?"

So while you're sitting there trying to convince me and others the Chronology in the greek is backwards to what we have in English.

Uh, it is the same in both Greek and English. Those who "were ordained to eternal life (first) believed (next)."

I'm just sitting here laughing at you while you squirm over it.

Uh, Mike, I am not squirming over it. You are. The Greek says the "ordained" preceded the "believed" just as the English does.

 

[King James Bond]

ILUVLIGHT,

When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were appointed to eternal life became believers. (NLT)

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV)

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NASB)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). (AMP)

This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord. (CEV)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NKJV)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (K21)

And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (ASV)

And the Gentiles, hearing this, were glad and gave glory to the word of God: and those marked out by God for eternal life had faith. (BBE)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV) (WBS)

The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed. (WEY)

And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during; (YLT)

I hope those help out.

KJB

 

[King James Bond]

AllaboutGrace,

Let me guess...I know what you are getting at...its all a mystery right! LOL

KJB

 

[King James Bond]

JohnV,

Look, I'm a Calvinist, but I don't dismiss that I have free will and responsibility to accept or reject God. The hypercalvinist will have me be a mindless automoton.

Kind of a tongue twister there don't ya think?

I will dismiss you have free-will because so much of the Scripture I posted so far shows you are not free at all. It shows thatyou may be subjected to the power of God at any time He wishes to subject you....all according to His will and without any of your consent in the entire matter!

I will not dismiss the responsibility portion though. People....even though they are very irresponsible will be made to respond.

Does that make sense? What I mean is that God will make people respond to Him. One day all people will have to come before Him and they will give account for everything they did in their flesh.

It will not matter who affected the will or the ultimate cause even though those that cause others to stumble will also be made to respond.

There is no escape. There is no free-willing it away. One day ALL people will come before the Lord.

Eve blamed the serpent. Adam blamed not only Eve but God as well. "It was the woman you gave me". Blame, blame, blame....

The problem is this......we will not be able to pass the buck....all people will have to give account for what they have done in the flesh.

Therefore guess what? We are responsible simply because God has all the power to make everybody respond!

And who do you think will be able to stand before the Lord unless He pardons them?

But that is another topic.

You cannot prove you have free-will.

Scripture shows that the wills of people are bound in a sin nature and are not free from sin.

Scripture shows that there are supernatural forces and powers that can and do affect and influence the wills of men.

So what part of your will is free and how can you prove it to me?

I will glady agree you have a will and you are not a "mindless automoton" but show me how you can prove with Scripture that the "free" should fit in.

I am not speaking here about free-will offerings which is an explanation of offerings above what was due.

Free-will....prove it!

KJB

 

[AresMan]

Here is a verse that someone could use to attempt to show some form of "free will":

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[jarhed]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />We are all ordained to eternal life when we believe.

But that's not what the verse says. It says that those who "were ordained ... believed." The ordaining to eternal life preceded the belief in the verse. </font>[/QUOTE]This VERSE does not prove anything, because by simple hermeneutical rules NO SCRIPTURE is of private interpretation...scripture must interpret scripture. Also, it is very weak to use a HISTORICAL narrative on which to build DOCTRINE. Now, my last post, which only told the truth, was deleted. Lets see if this one makes it.

The answer is quited simple: Ordained=Chosen=Elected. In Eph. Ch. 1 we also see Election/the Chosing happenning BEFORE the belief...and as far as man is concerned that is true, but now look down in vss.12-14 and you will see that ALL of that happens "after" I believed.

Well, now, how is that possible? It is really quite simple: God exists unconstrained by time and space. He is always everywhere. He is OMNIPRESENT across the time space continuim. Foreknowledge is not "knowing before" to God. No sir, he is actually there before because it is always WHEN or THEN with God (The lamb slain before the foundation of the world). Remember from Romans 3 the two things Abraham knew about God? 1. He can quicken the dead, and 2. He can call those things which are NOT as though they ARE (were). Why can he do that? Because he is already there.

NONE of this negates my free will. None of it! and grabbing single verses from Acts, and taking other (many) verses, like Romans 8, which speaks only of the saved and incorporates the truths from Eph.1 about Election/Chosen etc, and wresting them the way that great Catholic John Calvin did (after stealing his doctrine from Augustine) also does not NEGATE MY FREE WILL.

You, nor I can interpret scripture. Only scripture is qualified to do this. Just send my back your favorite VERSE "proving" man has no free will, and I'll show you what I mean exhaustively.

Let God be true!

 

[AresMan]

Just wondering. How do you all interpret Matthew 23:37/Luke 13:34 in the light of "irresitible grace"?

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I'm not arguing one way or the other, but I want to know how either "side" would apply this to their theology.

 

[King James Bond]

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Pretty good verse to bring up.

Come! The first portion is the Spirit and the bride calling come.....Lord Jesus Come!

And let him that hears say come!

Would you say that calling would apply to lets say...those that cannot hear?

What I mean is.....would unbelievers be calling Jesus to come?

And let him that is athirst come.

Would that call apply to those that are not thirsty?

And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And whosoever will not...are they capable of changing on their own to will?

Would you say that God may at His will cause people to thirst for Him and long for Jesus to come? Is God capable of making a man willing or not?

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

KJB

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
Kind of a tongue twister there don't ya think?

Only to a hypercalvinist. I don't know many mainline Calvinists who don't see the problem with free will existing within the scope of God's will.

 

[King James Bond]

JohnV,

It's a tongue twister because you try to prove a few things in your one single statement.

Look, I'm a Calvinist, but I don't dismiss that I have free will and responsibility to accept or reject God. The hypercalvinist will have me be a mindless automoton.

You more than likely are not a Calvinist.

You may not dismiss you have free-will even though Scripture shows you do not have it and you have no way to prove you do have it.

Thats quite a problem you have there on your hands. I would suggest holding your thoughts submissive to Scripture instead of holding Scripture to your thoughts. Of course since you are so free to choose with your free-will.....I suppose you can simply choose to believe the way I do.

I am not free however and find myself unable to freely choose to believe you.

I would not dismiss responsibility either...because YOU will be made to respond...and it matters not if you do not WILL to respond. You will not be free in the matter at all! God will MAKE you respond and all the will power or free-willing you can muster up on your best day will not change it!

KJB

 

[King James Bond]

I forgot to answer the other part of you statement.

None of my points makes you a mindless automon.

I do not deny man has a will. I hope that is very clear to you.

The word "free" modifies the word "will".

You use the word free-will with the main intenet to somehow conclude that people are free from the control of God.

Your idea is if God chooses who He works in it's just not fair.....and so He must not work in anybody.....He lets them be free.

Your idea is that God dos not choose who He saves and then works to save them......because He will not affect the will of man which is free from the work of God.

I say people are not free from the control of God. I say it is God that works to save people. I say He works upon their wills and gets them to do what they would not be normally willing to do.

So tell me what is your will free from? Evil...is it free from evil? Sin...is your will free from sin? Is it free from being influenced at all? Prove it!

Large corporations spend billions of dollars every year to influence the wills of people. It is done with adverts.

It is very effective and that is why they spend all the money they do......because they KNOW they can influence the wills of people.

Now are you really going to sit there and tell me the wills of people are not, and can not be influenced by God in whatever way He wishes to do so?

Do you really have a free-will? Are you really going to sit there and say God is incapable of working on your will to influence it one way or another?

KJB

 

[Pastor Larry]

This VERSE does not prove anything, because by simple hermeneutical rules NO SCRIPTURE is of private interpretation...scripture must interpret scripture.

Well, 2 Peter 1:19 on private interpretation has nothing to do with scripture interpreting Scripture. It speaks of origin, that Scriptures did not originate in man's private mind, but holy men spoke as they were moved by teh Holy Spirit.

Also, it is very weak to use a HISTORICAL narrative on which to build DOCTRINE.

I wasn't using narrative to build doctrine. The narrative illustrates the doctrine taught elsewhere. But we also must remember that narrative is just as true as teh didactic passages.

The answer is quited simple: Ordained=Chosen=Elected. In Eph. Ch. 1 we also see Election/the Chosing happenning BEFORE the belief...and as far as man is concerned that is true, but now look down in vss.12-14 and you will see that ALL of that happens "after" I believed.

Eph 1:4 says the choosing happens before the foundation of the world. Did you believe before the foundation of the world? Hardly.

Second your "ordained-believed-elected" sequence isn't in Scripture. 2 Tim 2:10 and 2 Thess 2:13 say that election precedes belief.

NONE of this negates my free will. None of it!

I agree.

Just send my back your favorite VERSE "proving" man has no free will, and I'll show you what I mean exhaustively.

I believe man does have free will. The Bible teaches that man in his free will chooses to sin and reject God.

Let God be true!

At least we can agree on that.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;

Greek Interlinear
Act 13:48

akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon
And hearing the nations rejoiced and gloriifed


ton logon tou kuriou, kai episteusan
the word of the Lord, and believed


osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion:
as many as were having been disposed to life eternal.

As I read this above it would seem to me that your interpretation of the Greek is lacking.
It very clearly states we are disposed to eternal life after we believe
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[TCassidy]

Uh, the interlinear's "interpretation" of the Greek is exactly the same as Pastor Larry's and exactly the opposite of yours.