Since you have been a Baptist, have you . . .

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I might also add, Walmarts, BP's, Target's, the list goes on and on..., do not call themselves churches, nor do they represent churches.

Also, I have never seen a funeral procession coming out of a Walmart, a Target, a BP, the list goes on and on...

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Now that is funny!! </font>[/QUOTE]Funny? Not seeing the humor in that statement, but what I do see is the absolute inability of men, who are asserting something that is horrendous, to prove their point without twisting scripture.

Why? Because Jesus told the man not to go to the funeral, but to follow Him?

If one is not worthy to forsake all and follow Christ, one is not worthy of Christ.

Diggin,
Since you refuse to comprehend my point I will make it easy for you.

On this side you have a dead parent that has a funeral in a Catholic Church. You refuse to go because you say that by going you are consenting to the Catholic Churches beliefs.

On the other side you have consumer products (an easy everyday example of this analogy). Now when you buy consumer products from companies that are not Christian you are financially supporting this company. This is more then consenting, this is outright financial support. Some examples. Do you buy gas? Are you consenting to the Muslim countries actions? How about the Latin American countries actions? How about causing a loss of labor due to buying outsourced goods?

Now again I say, your consent is much stronger on the consumer side then it is by simply attending a funeral at a Catholic Church.

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Because Jesus told the man not to go to the funeral, but to follow Him?

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That's not what Jesus was saying. The context of what Jesus was saying has already been discussed prior.

First of all, you do not know where I get my products from, so you cannot accuse me of getting them from muslims or other godless people.

Second, we live in the world, but are not of the world. Some people have to buy products to live. A far cry from deliberately disobeying the Word of God and attending ungodly services to appease another human being.

Thirdly, as far as I am concerned, this debate is over. The Word of God abideth for ever.

Let the dead bury their dead.

Originally posted by Diggin in da Word:
First of all, you do not know where I get my products from, so you cannot accuse me of getting them from muslims or other godless people.

Second, we live in the world, but are not of the world. Some people have to buy products to live. A far cry from deliberately disobeying the Word of God and attending ungodly services to appease another human being.

Thirdly, as far as I am concerned, this debate is over. The Word of God abideth for ever.

Let the dead bury their dead.

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First of all, they were posed as questions and some thoughts were assumed by the fact that you never answered the questions. Feel free to do so here. Do you buy products from companies that secular? If so, by your standard, you have not just consented, but financially supported anti-Christian initiatives. This is far worse then paying respects to a loved one.

Second of all, you are not forced to buy any product. Now you’ve decided to throw another verse out there without proper context. Last time I checked there are people all over the world that live without the products that you deem necessary to stay breathing. Again you evaded the logical analogies put forth. You said by being there you are consenting to the Catholic faith. I put forth logical analogies, so you could see that this isn’t fact nor is it reasonable and you refused to answer them.

Thirdly, you are right His Word does abide forever, but just not in the context you have put forth.

Please understand that in an informal setting such as Baptist Board, it is hard to tell the attitude of the person on the other side. I care about my brothers and sisters in Christ and if I have offended anyone, please forgive me. I do stand by the premise of my argument 100% in this case and find that many in this thread have erred considerably.

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Why? Because Jesus told the man not to go to the funeral, but to follow Him?

If one is not worthy to forsake all and follow Christ, one is not worthy of Christ.

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The only problem is that it wasn't a funeral that Christ was forbidding the man from attending as has been pointed out.

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
show me where the christian is referred as being dead.

as far as deceased. who in their right mind would want to bury a live person

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OK, I am going to try to follow your twisted logic here and do your style of biblical interpretation... You said "show me.." How is this:Rom 6:2-11 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


So interpreting Scripture the way you do, I can prove that Christ said that we as Christians must bury all dead.. It is here in Romans, plain and simple that we must reckon our selves to be dead....

And since Christ told the man to let the dead bury the dead, then Christ must have meant that all funeral home directors are Christian.

I know, awful hermanuetics, but so are yours.

We are dead to sin, but alive unto Christ. We are not dead. Try again

tinytim,

the scripture you used just furthers the truth of what I have been saying all along.

Follow me. Let the dead bury their dead.

If we are dead to sin and alive to God as the scripture you posted above, that further proves what I said. We are not to bury anyone except those who are dead to sin and alive to God.

The spiritually dead bury their own spiritually dead.

Scripture must interpret scripture. Romans 6 passage further backs Matthew 8's account and Luke 9's account.

Thank you tim.

wow...so Christian funeral home owners should refuse burial services to non-Christians...

interesting verse-plucking...

Man I was trying to be sarcastic!!!

And a little funny... I just can't win..

I think I'll take my verse picker home and go to bed..

cya.

Originally posted by rbell:
wow...so Christian funeral home owners should refuse burial services to non-Christians...

interesting verse-plucking...

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But before I go...

If only the dead is to bury the dead,...

then a sinner that dies could only be buried by an unsaved undertaker. That's reverse thinking, and totally stupid.

But there are some Baptists in this world that may interpret it that way.. I have seen stranger things in my former Independant, Fundamental, Dysfunctional, Baptist days....

Now I'm going to bed, goodnight all.

Originally posted by Diggin in da Word:
tinytim,

the scripture you used just furthers the truth of what I have been saying all along.

Follow me. Let the dead bury their dead.

If we are dead to sin and alive to God as the scripture you posted above, that further proves what I said. We are not to bury anyone except those who are dead to sin and alive to God.

The spiritually dead bury their own spiritually dead.

Scripture must interpret scripture. Romans 6 passage further backs Matthew 8's account and Luke 9's account.

Thank you tim.

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This is an interesting idea you are espousing. However, a couple of years ago my wife's great aunt passed away. She had been a Roman Catholic all her life. She had a stroke and spent the last two weeks of her life in the hospital. When she was first admitted to the hospital my wife went to visit her and led her to Christ. Now the aged woman was paralized and could hardly speak and she was never able to leave the hospital or go to church. When she died her family had her old RC church deal with the funeral arrangements. Thus, we all attended a catholic funeral/mass. However, great aunt "Beanie" was saved and we will be reunited with her one day.

To answer the OP: Yes, I've been to weddings, Christenings, first communions, and funerals at RC churches. When a Roman Catholic friend invites us to one of these events we use them as a witnessing encounter. You would be surprised at how many times the Lord opens the door for evangelism to take place.

Don’t worry Tim, by his own standards he just called himself a liar. You see he said, “as far as I am concerned this debate is over”. Now you see if I were to use the same pattern of thinking he has put forth it would go something like this. He said for him the debate was over. He then posts’ after this. Thus going against his own words. Thus lying. Now I don’t think Diggin is a liar, a thief, or anything thing else, but without context he just lied. He said the debate was over for him and then he posted again. Now in context he was saying that the debate was over for him, but just as many of us do, he found something else to comment on. This is why context is so important.

Maybe Diggin's last post was not debate, but final stand.

I see what is being said, and what Diggin has posted makes more sense than the many posts from those arguing with Him.

Jesus never stated Go bury your father, but did indeed say Follow me. Let the dead bury their dead.

I can see where it would make sense for the one who chose to live a sinful lifestyle to be buried by his sinful crowd.

Sure, witness and comfort the family. Christ would want that. But don't go in their pagan places of worship.

I have the same convictions not to go in a pagan church. If I disobey the Holy Spirit and go in there, I will have to answer. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Jesus never stated Go bury your father, but did indeed say Follow me. Let the dead bury their dead.

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Exactly - follow Christ in our everyday life. Live a holy life and love others. Let the dead bury the dead (even if I accept your adding to scripture as Biblical) and be there to show your love for family and friends.

No conflict in doing both.

It is obvious Jesus was discussing priorities here.

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

Have you sold all that you have, including the computer you are typing on and distibuted to the poor so that you can follow Christ? It is clear that if you have not sold everything you have to give to the poor you are not following Him. Are you really ready to go all the way?

To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.

Let us be consistant.

If we must forsake a funeral to follow Christ we certaianly must sell ALL that we have and give the money away.

Originally posted by JackRUS:
Craig asked me:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now it is my turn to ask you a question? Did you personally verify the accuracy of the quotes that you posted, or did you post them without first verifying their accuracy by looking them up in the original documents?

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The Glories of Mary is a very well know work, and Catholic scholars that I have debated verified the quotes. I gave page numbers and book references to all of the quotes that I posted from other works as well.

As for true Catholic dogma, one need only go to The Council of Trent to see what they really believe on Justification. Why Craig to you think that this council was called in the first place? To lend credibility to Luther and his views on justification?

Here is a sampling from this heretical work:

"If anyone denies that by baptism the guilt of original sin is remitted (or) denies that justice, santification and redemption of Jesus Christ is applied both to adults and to infants by the sacrament of baptism...let him be anathema.

If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law (i.e. the seven sacramenst of the RCC) are not necessary for salvation...and that without them...men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification (see what I mean Tim)..let him be anathema.

If anyone says that baptism...is not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that after the reception of grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotteed out...and that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that the sacifice of the mass...wherein that life-giving victim by which we are reconciled to the Father is daily immolated on the altar by priests...is a mere commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross but not a propitiatory one...offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities, let him be anathema."

In 1962, at the opening of Vatican II in Rome, Pope John XXIII affirmed, "I do accept entirely all that has been decided and declared at the Council of Trent." Vatican II itself "proposes again the decrees of the Council of Trent." On 12/31/95, honoring the 450th anniversary of the opening of Trent, Pope John Paul II declared, "Its conclusions maintain all their value." (From The Berean Call) </font>[/QUOTE]Since the language spoken at the opening of Vatican II in Rome was not English, I knew immediately that these “quotes” could not possibly be genuine but it took me a few hours to run them down and find where they came from. Here is what I learned:

On August 13, 1997, a patient at Saint Mary’s of Bethlehem had a nightmare about Pope John and posted to the hospital’s message board that John Paul said these things at the opening of Vatican II. On September 6, 1997, a fanatical anti-Catholic “ministry” found these “quotes” on that hospital’s message board and quoted them as actual quotes on their web site. Since then, 769 more anti-Catholic web sites have copied these words word for word and quoted them on their web sites. Whoops, I just woke up from a nightmare!

Have you sold all that you have, including the computer you are typing on and distibuted to the poor so that you can follow Christ? It is clear that if you have not sold everything you have to give to the poor you are not following Him.

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Wow! You are also typing on a computer. Have you sold everything and distributed to the poor. If not, you must not be following Christ.

I have no problem going to a funeral - you are the one setting standards for following Christ.

You have told me that I cannot go to a funeral and follow Christ. How is the selling all we have to give to the poor any different? Can you point out to me why I cannot go to a funeral and yet keep all my stuff and not sell it to give money to the poor?

I am consistant - are you?