Confessions of a Former Worship Leader

On one hand you think of music like it is an action (and it is). How else could you have judged thrash metal as riotous or excessive? But when taken to the logical conclusion of your thinking, you suddenly switch to thinking of it like an object. And all our discussions end here.

But, you've already made a moral judgment about a specific genre. You said it crosses God's line of decency and order. That's basically how everyone evaluates music, on the basis of its demeanor.</font>[/QUOTE]I have simply judged it's properties Aaron. Thrash metal does not fascilitate any meaningful pursuit of those very goals you were talking about in 2 Peter.

Apart from that how does it make sense to call sound sinful?

 

To clarify that a little more, your original question was much like this: "Are there certain musical styles which are associated with or can be considered excessive or riotous?"

The answer is yes. We describe music in those terms. In all reality though, what we are saying is that the music is conveying a riotous or chaotic sentiment, not that the music itself is the sentiment. Only a person can be in a state of riotous or chaotic sentiment. The action we invariably return to is always one of a moral agent, and always returns to the heart (remember that thread? )

Remember your example of the fruit? We can't talk about whether the apple itself was righteous or sinful, the idea doesn't make any sense. As a part of God's creation, it was good and we leave it at that. When we discuss it's benefits we can approach it from two angles: The first is judging what benefit it's natural properties have for us in the action of consuming it, the second is what benefit we have in the action of consuming it despite God's commandment not to.

Do you see how the sin lies in the action of the heart? It's the same with all sin. You can't make music sinful anymore than you can make the apple or any other natural property sinful.

 

Language is the conduit through which communication itself occurs.

When you judge language, you are not judging the audible or visible signals a person is using to communicate, you are judging the person. The medium of language is an abstract by which our intents and thoughts are related to one another. The medium of language is not those very thoughts and intents.

And that is why we always come to a dead end. In order to show sin in music, you need to demonstrate a thought or intent outside of the heart, and it doesn't exist, so you quit. As much as I hold a great respect for you, I am ultimately satisfied by this resolution.

 

God reserves the right to judge a proud look because he is God. He knows a proud look when He sees one, and He doesn't have to judge the face or posture to see it. The look is right on the heart.

I think one of your problems is that you pull a snippet of Scripture and try to create a universal axiom out of it.

I will never change my belief that sin is only in the heart unless you can demonstrate that thoughts and intents leap from the heart and run around on their own.

 

No, actually, I don't. What I think is that discerning men reading this thread can see that if you'd been following the discussion between me and Travelsong, you would have the answer to your questions. </font>[/QUOTE]LOL! This is how you sqirm out of it? Give me a break. You interchanges with Travel have been your personal, subjective opinions. You have slammed into other's motives and yea, even their hearts. Come on, Aaron, cough it up or give it up. Where's your dogmatism? What is its roots?

 

What does the Bible say about how and what God judges? From where do evil deeds spring? Where does sin reside? When a man performs any action, what is it that determines whether or not his action will be sinful? When men speak, where does the Bible say their thoughts and intents originate?

There are just far too many verses which deal with the heart and the actions that spring from it to provide an exhaustive list (somewhere around 900), but so that there can be no confusion as to where sin resides and what God judges, let's look at a small sampling:

Now why should God be concerned with the heart before deeds? The answer my friend is because all deeds are actions of the heart!:

One of my favorites:

I'm concentrating mostly on sinful actions of the heart and I have skipped over volumes of Scripture which declare that a fear of God from the heart is what determines who will follow God and keep his commandments but I will include this one just because it's so direct and to the point:

gorgeous:

 

How do we explain this one away?

 

Well let's see, I've covered up to Proverbs, skipping over hundreds verses, all of which demonstrate the heart is in action against God, it is the heart that performs wicked deeds and it is God who judges-what? The heart!

Let's skip a couple hundred more and see if the New Testament is at all concerned with connecting the heart with action, or if God is still concerned with judging the heart.

That's interesting. Do you think he means to say the sin of adultery is in the heart?

Well we know where this is from:

and let's end here:

So we see from the very beginning of the Bible and through it's entirety God judges the heart, and sin springs from the heart.

My question to you is this: Where do we see the Bible at all concerned with sin existing indpendant of the thoughts, intents, deeds and ultimately actions of the heart? Where does this kind of sin exist, and how does it even benefit me to recognize it?

 

There is no distinction between a deed and the heart it springs from Aaron! A lie is an action of the heart. You can't isolate a lie and treat it as some sort of independant entity.

The works God judges are deeds of the heart. One man builds orphanages for God's glory, another for his own. What is the distinction between the two and what does God judge? The orphanage or the heart? No matter how hard you try you can't seperate sin from the heart, it's impossible as the Bible clearly demonstrates.

 

What does fruit correspond to, things or works? What are works? Actions or things?


Sins do not exist apart from the hearts that bear them. Where there is sin, there is a disobedient heart. Sin by definition is the heart in disobedience.

Look at those verses above. What commits adultery? What lies? What decieves? It's always the heart. Adultery does not exist outside an action of the heart. Lies do not exist outside an action of the heart. No sin exists outside an action of the heart and the Bible makes that plain as day over and over.

 

I can honestly see where both of you are coming from in your presentations. Travel is focusing heavily on the origin and motivational factors. Aaron is focuing on the acting out (if I may use that phrase in this context) of those origins and motivational factors.

Now guys (addressed to both of you), how does this tie into the music issue at hand? I would like both of you to address this in a very tight musical paradigm, please.

 

There is no distinction between the two.

What's the difference between murder and killing someone in self defense, or accidentally killing someone? The heart.

You can't seperate sin from the heart. As much as Aaron is saying you can he has yet to show how.

Can sin exist external and independant of the heart?