Confessions of a Former Worship Leader

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Daniel:
How so, Aaron? Are you ignoring my request for your scripture backed premises and subsequent conclusion? Don't you think everyone reading this thread can see your evasion?

No, actually, I don't. What I think is that discerning men reading this thread can see that if you'd been following the discussion between me and Travelsong, you would have the answer to your questions.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Travelsong:
Here's the distinction. Music can't be drunkeness.

On one hand you think of music like it is an action (and it is). How else could you have judged thrash metal as riotous or excessive? But when taken to the logical conclusion of your thinking, you suddenly switch to thinking of it like an object. And all our discussions end here.

But, you've already made a moral judgment about a specific genre. You said it crosses God's line of decency and order. That's basically how everyone evaluates music, on the basis of its demeanor.</font>[/QUOTE]I have simply judged it's properties Aaron. Thrash metal does not fascilitate any meaningful pursuit of those very goals you were talking about in 2 Peter.

Apart from that how does it make sense to call sound sinful?

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Travelsong:

Apart from that how does it make sense to call sound sinful?

To clarify that a little more, your original question was much like this: "Are there certain musical styles which are associated with or can be considered excessive or riotous?"

The answer is yes. We describe music in those terms. In all reality though, what we are saying is that the music is conveying a riotous or chaotic sentiment, not that the music itself is the sentiment. Only a person can be in a state of riotous or chaotic sentiment. The action we invariably return to is always one of a moral agent, and always returns to the heart (remember that thread? )

Remember your example of the fruit? We can't talk about whether the apple itself was righteous or sinful, the idea doesn't make any sense. As a part of God's creation, it was good and we leave it at that. When we discuss it's benefits we can approach it from two angles: The first is judging what benefit it's natural properties have for us in the action of consuming it, the second is what benefit we have in the action of consuming it despite God's commandment not to.

Do you see how the sin lies in the action of the heart? It's the same with all sin. You can't make music sinful anymore than you can make the apple or any other natural property sinful.

 

[Aaron]

It's just the same old argument between us, TS. You say music is simply sound, I say it's communication. Saying music is simply sound is like saying language is simply sound.

Unlike verbal communication (verbal simply means words spoken or written) no one needs to learn to understand non-verbal communication. Everyone from infancy understands anger, excitement, peacefulness, humility or arrogance in the way things are said and the looks on our faces.

Music is nonverbal communication. It is an act, and as such can be judged as right or wrong, good or evil, moral or immoral.

And so this is where you and I end up in every exchange. So I guess we're done.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Aaron:
It's just the same old argument between us, TS. You say music is simply sound, I say it's communication. Saying music is simply sound is like saying language is simply sound.

Language is the conduit through which communication itself occurs.

Originally posted by Aaron:
Unlike verbal communication (verbal simply means words spoken or written) no one needs to learn to understand non-verbal communication. Everyone from infancy understands anger, excitement, peacefulness, humility or arrogance in the way things are said and the looks on our faces.

Music is nonverbal communication. It is an act, and as such can be judged as right or wrong, good or evil, moral or immoral.

And so this is where you and I end up in every exchange. So I guess we're done.

When you judge language, you are not judging the audible or visible signals a person is using to communicate, you are judging the person. The medium of language is an abstract by which our intents and thoughts are related to one another. The medium of language is not those very thoughts and intents.

And that is why we always come to a dead end. In order to show sin in music, you need to demonstrate a thought or intent outside of the heart, and it doesn't exist, so you quit. As much as I hold a great respect for you, I am ultimately satisfied by this resolution.

 

[Aaron]

And yet, God hates a proud look. Sorry, TS. As much as you like to make everything around you neutral or amoral, even your own actions, you do so without the endorsement of the Scriptures. Even worse, you do so despite the overwhelming message to the contrary.

 

[Travelsong]

God reserves the right to judge a proud look because he is God. He knows a proud look when He sees one, and He doesn't have to judge the face or posture to see it. The look is right on the heart.

I think one of your problems is that you pull a snippet of Scripture and try to create a universal axiom out of it.

I will never change my belief that sin is only in the heart unless you can demonstrate that thoughts and intents leap from the heart and run around on their own.

 

[Daniel]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Daniel:
How so, Aaron? Are you ignoring my request for your scripture backed premises and subsequent conclusion? Don't you think everyone reading this thread can see your evasion?

No, actually, I don't. What I think is that discerning men reading this thread can see that if you'd been following the discussion between me and Travelsong, you would have the answer to your questions. </font>[/QUOTE]LOL! This is how you sqirm out of it? Give me a break. You interchanges with Travel have been your personal, subjective opinions. You have slammed into other's motives and yea, even their hearts. Come on, Aaron, cough it up or give it up. Where's your dogmatism? What is its roots?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
I think one of your problems is that you pull a snippet of Scripture and try to create a universal axiom out of it.

I will never change my belief that sin is only in the heart unless you can demonstrate that thoughts and intents leap from the heart and run around on their own.

How about this snippet:

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good...

This doesn't say that Christ Himself was good, this is saying He did good works, and we were created unto good works. Not only that, but all our own works will be judged as good or evil.

Here's another snippet:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil, John 3:19.

Seems pretty universal.

 

[Travelsong]

What does the Bible say about how and what God judges? From where do evil deeds spring? Where does sin reside? When a man performs any action, what is it that determines whether or not his action will be sinful? When men speak, where does the Bible say their thoughts and intents originate?

There are just far too many verses which deal with the heart and the actions that spring from it to provide an exhaustive list (somewhere around 900), but so that there can be no confusion as to where sin resides and what God judges, let's look at a small sampling:

Now why should God be concerned with the heart before deeds? The answer my friend is because all deeds are actions of the heart!:

Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;

Deuteronomy 8:17
And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth

Deuteronomy 15:9
Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart

Deuteronomy 29:18
Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

Deuteronomy 29:19
And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:

Deuteronomy 30:17
But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

One of my favorites:

1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

1 Samuel 25:31
That this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord, either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged himself: but when the LORD shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember thine handmaid.

1 Kings 8:39
Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men

I'm concentrating mostly on sinful actions of the heart and I have skipped over volumes of Scripture which declare that a fear of God from the heart is what determines who will follow God and keep his commandments but I will include this one just because it's so direct and to the point:

1 Kings 8:61
Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

1 Kings 11:4
For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

1 Kings 11:9
And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

1 Kings 15:3
And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

2 Chronicles 12:14
And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.

2 Chronicles 26:16
But when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his destruction: for he transgressed against the LORD his God, and went into the temple of the LORD to burn incense upon the altar of incense

2 Chronicles 32:26
Notwithstanding Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, both he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD came not upon them in the days of Hezekiah.

gorgeous:

Ezra 7:10
For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.

 

[Travelsong]

Job 1:5
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts.

Job 8:10
Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?

Psalm 10:3
For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.

Psalm 10:6
He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.

Psalm 26:2
Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.

Psalm 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.

Psalm 36:1
The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

Psalm 41:6
And if he come to see me, he speaketh vanity: his heart gathereth iniquity to itself; when he goeth abroad, he telleth it.

Psalm 44:21
Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Psalm 55:21
The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.

Psalm 58:2
Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

Psalm 64:6
They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, is deep.

Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Psalm 74:8
They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.

Psalm 78:18
And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.

Psalm 78:37
For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.

Psalm 81:12
So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

Psalm 95:10
Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

Psalm 139:23
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

Psalm 140:2
Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war.

How do we explain this one away?

Psalm 141:4
Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.

Proverbs 5:12
And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;

Proverbs 6:18
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

Proverbs 12:8
A man shall be commended according to his wisdom: but he that is of a perverse heart shall be despised.

 

[Travelsong]

Proverbs 12:20
Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy.

Proverbs 12:23
A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.

Proverbs 16:5
Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Well let's see, I've covered up to Proverbs, skipping over hundreds verses, all of which demonstrate the heart is in action against God, it is the heart that performs wicked deeds and it is God who judges-what? The heart!

Let's skip a couple hundred more and see if the New Testament is at all concerned with connecting the heart with action, or if God is still concerned with judging the heart.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

That's interesting. Do you think he means to say the sin of adultery is in the heart?

Matthew 9:4
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Well we know where this is from:

Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Matthew 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Acts 15:8
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Romans 1:24
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Romans 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

1 Corinthians 14:25
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

2 Corinthians 5:12
For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

1 Thessalonians 2:4
But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

and let's end here:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So we see from the very beginning of the Bible and through it's entirety God judges the heart, and sin springs from the heart.

My question to you is this: Where do we see the Bible at all concerned with sin existing indpendant of the thoughts, intents, deeds and ultimately actions of the heart? Where does this kind of sin exist, and how does it even benefit me to recognize it?

 

[Aaron]

Who said the heart isn't evil? You're trying to say that works are neutral, and you accused me of misrepresenting the Scripture. Now, a snippet is all I need, but I provided more to show you that God indeed hates evil deeds, not just evil hearts. Here's some more.</font>

• Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.</font>
• Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.</font>
• Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.</font>
• Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.</font>

Let me give you an example. A lie is evil, right? It's not an evil heart that made the lie evil, the lie is evil in and of itself because the thing you said against your neighbor was not true, and the verity (or lack thereof) of your statement is an intrinsic quality of the statement itself. Now the lie did spring forth from an evil heart, because a good heart cannot lie. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. But it's not the condition of the heart that made the work good or evil. All evil works do spring from evil hearts. No one has denied that, but the works themselves are evil in and of themselves. Even though God can see arrogance in the heart, He still hates a proud look, and no, this isn't a "look on the heart," whatever on God's green earth that means. I chose that verse because it has to do with nonverbal communication, which you assert to be neutral. Yes, God hates the thought, but He also hates the look, and there's no other way you can take that Scripture and be faithful to the text.

And that's the real reason we come to a dead end, because you have an unbiblical view of works and of the world around you. Neutral fruit?

Didn't I say that discussions about music will always boil down to the knowledge of God and the knowledge of good and evil?

 

[Travelsong]

There is no distinction between a deed and the heart it springs from Aaron! A lie is an action of the heart. You can't isolate a lie and treat it as some sort of independant entity.

The works God judges are deeds of the heart. One man builds orphanages for God's glory, another for his own. What is the distinction between the two and what does God judge? The orphanage or the heart? No matter how hard you try you can't seperate sin from the heart, it's impossible as the Bible clearly demonstrates.

 

[Aaron]

There is no distinction between a deed and the heart it springs from Aaron! A lie is an action of the heart. You can't isolate a lie and treat it as some sort of independant entity.

Sure you can, just as you can separate an apple from the tree. God does it all the time. Haven't you ever asserted that God loves the sinner yet hates the sin? The fruit is NOT the tree, but we know it's an apple tree because it bears apples. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?

And no, I'm not saying music is an object any more than I'm saying a lie is an object. I'm merely using the allegory Christ employed to illustrate the concept.

 

[Travelsong]

What does fruit correspond to, things or works? What are works? Actions or things?


Sins do not exist apart from the hearts that bear them. Where there is sin, there is a disobedient heart. Sin by definition is the heart in disobedience.

Look at those verses above. What commits adultery? What lies? What decieves? It's always the heart. Adultery does not exist outside an action of the heart. Lies do not exist outside an action of the heart. No sin exists outside an action of the heart and the Bible makes that plain as day over and over.

 

[Aaron]

Fruit corresponds to works. Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Where there is sin, there is a disobedient heart. Sin by definition is the heart in disobedience.

It's as Christ said, an evil tree cannot bear good fruit. Yet there is a distinction to be made between the tree and its fruit. They're both evil, but the fruit is not the tree, neither the tree its fruit. So there is also distinction to be made between the heart of sin, and the works of sin. God made that distinction in the OT calling the one sin, and the other trespass, and prescribing distinct offerings for both.

 

[Daniel]

I can honestly see where both of you are coming from in your presentations. Travel is focusing heavily on the origin and motivational factors. Aaron is focuing on the acting out (if I may use that phrase in this context) of those origins and motivational factors.

Now guys (addressed to both of you), how does this tie into the music issue at hand? I would like both of you to address this in a very tight musical paradigm, please.

 

[Travelsong]

I can honestly see where both of you are coming from in your presentations. Travel is focusing heavily on the origin and motivational factors. Aaron is focuing on the acting out (if I may use that phrase in this context) of those origins and motivational factors.

There is no distinction between the two.

What's the difference between murder and killing someone in self defense, or accidentally killing someone? The heart.

You can't seperate sin from the heart. As much as Aaron is saying you can he has yet to show how.

Now guys (addressed to both of you), how does this tie into the music issue at hand? I would like both of you to address this in a very tight musical paradigm, please.

Can sin exist external and independant of the heart?

 

[Aaron]

Well, this is where we end up all the time. Let's just agree to disagree here before we end up being hostile to one another again.