Is it wrong to indulge the flesh in music?

I am the judge of your actions. Your singing is an outward act, just as your posting here on the Baptist Board.

I believe that there are a great many people who sing praise and worship songs from a spiritual heart.

This is a judgment—of the heart no less. I find it amusing that when I say some things are wrong, I'm told we're not supposed to judge, yet those very ones will judge all things right or permissible.

All that I can attest to is myself, and I know that I sing purely when I worship...

I keep hearing this from people. My question is, "How do you know?" If our judgment rests on the Scriptures, then the same criteria by which we judge ourselves applies to our judgments of all things.

...whether that style is made up of hymns or something more modern.

And this doesn't reflect the contention. The contention isn't that something is modern or contemporary (in the denotative meanings of the words), the contention is whether somthing is carnal or spiritual.

 

Aaron, I’ve been looking over what you write and agree…but….
Your criterion for choosing what music is “heart” music is subjective.
Your criterion is what YOU think is edifying to YOU (or you can spiritualize it and say it is what YOU think God accepts). In either case it is subjective.

I have visited churches where the music was a bit more…could I say, loud…upbeat…even charismatic…than I am used to. But I could see the hearts of the worshipers and see that they were opening their hearts to God. They were worshiping with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs (Col. 3:17). I don’t feel that I could worship in that congregation regularly but as a visitor I could put my musical prejudices aside and participate in worship and honor God.

Rob

 

Aaron,

Are you sure you're authorized to do so without clear Divine Direction and Scriptural Support?

Seems to me that the Word of God is clear concenring Christians...

Judge not lest ye be judged?

Of course we can go overboard and not set *any* standards... I am not saying that...

But, I emphasize that your standard for judging anothers actions must be based on a Black and White Criterion from Scripture...

Which when it comes to Musical Tastes is subject to quite a bit of subjectiveness based on personal preference and opinion...

Much as Michal judged David for dancing in his under garment...

To do sure he was fully covered..

But, from Michal perspective it must have seemed a bit 'sensuous' from the way her words were framed...

Yet Davids rebuke, and God's apparent support of it indicates, at least to me, that David was in the acceptably right before God...

Even though his own wife judged him...

So, to sum it up I do not live my life for Aaron. I live it for Jesus...

And,

You are not mine or Scott Emerson's Spiritual Supervisor...

I for one, and I do not believe I am alone, reject your usurpation of Jesus' Authority over my life...

(After all you haven't paid a high enough price...)

 

You are not the judge of my actions, and I ask that you support your assumption with Scripture.

That's why I said, "I believe." I'm not making a judgment, merely a belief. There's a big difference there.

Because Christ told us to worship with Spirit and in Truth. The Spirit Himself testifies in my heart that this is true.

And I will say that the music that I subject myself to and worship with is, indeed spiritual, whether or not you believe it is carnal or not. If you can't listen to it without sinning, then don't listen to it. If you can't stand that I can listen to it and worship in spirit and in truth, then hold that opinion and keep your mouth shut.

 

Amen, Rob. Just because someone worships in a different style, or with different music, does not mean that they are worshipping a different God.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

You could see their hearts? Really? How? I keep getting told we can't judge anyone's heart. Yet here you go and judge the hearts of an entire congregation, and that with impunity merely because you judged them as good.

Where is the cacophony of protests and the ever ready citation of Matthew 7:1? (which I'll deal with in my reply to SMM)

Now, you've said my criteria were subjective (and that without really knowing my criteria), I am merely asking you what your objective criteria was for "seeing" that these folks "were opening their hearts to God." Is it something that you gleaned from the Scriptures, or did God tell you so Himself like Scott claimed?

 

The command to “not judge,” isn’t the prohibition of all judging or discerning of right and wrong, —the making of such judgments by believers is necessary.
We can make a fair judgment of character by observing what is projected by an individuals or groups action.
The character of an unrepentant, unbelieving heart includes unrepentance, division, wickedness, drunkenness, covetousness, and carnality to name but a few.
Worship that is acceptable to God does not have to fit with YOUR pattern of suitability.
God looks at our heart. My observation regarding that particular congregation is surely limited. God honors those who praise Him with a clean heart and express thankfulness for His daily goodness.

Rob

 

Are you sure you're authorized to do so without clear Divine Direction and Scriptural Support?</font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely not. Here is my divine direction and Scriptural support:

</font>

• John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.</font>
• 1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things...</font>
• Philippians 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment...</font>

Here are three. The Scriptures abound with more, but I need only one.

Seems to me that the Word of God is clear concenring Christians...

Seems that way to me, too.

Judge not lest ye be judged?

Of course we can go overboard and not set *any* standards... I am not saying that...

At least you have the sense to see that this isn't an absolute prohibition against all kinds of judgment, but is only a prohibition against unlawful judgment. This is easy to see not only in the light of the verses I cited, but by the very context. Christ immediately afterward said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine." By dogs and swine we, of course, know that he meant people of a certain character. Now, how are we to know who are dogs and who are swine if all judgment is prohibited to us?

Also, most people take this to mean that God's leniency with me depends upon my leniency with others, which is a dangerous presupposition. God's judgment of me will always be according to truth, and that without respect of persons. So the warning here is that we risk the indignation and righteous judgment of God by making unlawful judgments, by judging what is good to be bad, or vice versa, judging what is bad to be good.

But, I emphasize that your standard for judging anothers actions must be based on a Black and White Criterion from Scripture...

Which when it comes to Musical Tastes is subject to quite a bit of subjectiveness based on personal preference and opinion...

Well, that's the whole argument, isn't it? The issue isn't "musical taste," but music. Christians are almost universally agreed that certain forms are simply wrong in and of themselves, like the styles of Marilyn Manson, or Goth and Grunge, and that without any of what you would call "Black and White Criterion from Scripture." They make the judgment based on its character and its appeal. (Thirty years ago there was also consensus about R & B).

Once you understand that beauty is NOT simply in the eye of the beholder, and that music is a form of communication (not the communication of ideas through words, but the communication of feelings), then it becomes something that must be judged according to the Bible. That doesn't mean the criteria are always floating on the surface in the "milk of the Word," for he that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness, but it is there, and we are responsible to know it.

Much as Michal judged David for dancing in his under garment...

To do sure he was fully covered..

But, from Michal perspective it must have seemed a bit 'sensuous' from the way her words were framed...

Yet Davids rebuke, and God's apparent support of it indicates, at least to me, that David was in the acceptably right before God...

Even though his own wife judged him...

You err in thinking that all things that were allowed under tutelage of the law by God to Israel in their childish and superstitious state transfer to the Church.

You also err in thinking that David danced in his underwear. I mean, what is up with this? Almost every CCM advocate I've talked with thinks that David was either naked or nearly so! First, we know he wasn't naked, He was clothed with a linen ephod; second, this wasn't underwear (the word 'linen' must be throwing you folks off), it was a ministerial outer garment. Samuel wore one 1 Sam. 2:18, yet no one has thought that little Samuel was serving the Tabernacle naked or in his underwear.

Next, Michal's displeasure was that he laid aside his kingly garments and humbled himself. Her accusation that he uncovered himself in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself was a false accusation, much like the accusation that Christ was a glutton and a winebibber.

So, please. Can we move on now knowing what really happened?

So, to sum it up I do not live my life for Aaron. I live it for Jesus...

And,

You are not mine or Scott Emerson's Spiritual Supervisor...

I for one, and I do not believe I am alone, reject your usurpation of Jesus' Authority over my life...

(After all you haven't paid a high enough price...)

All I'm doing is judging your public, outward actions, and, as I've shown, all Christians have the duty to do so. You are not the standard of right and wrong for yourself or anyone else. But you also greatly err in thinking that you do not have the responsibility to live in a manner conducive to the unity of the body of Christ.

You often assert that 1 Cor. 8 and Rom. 14 apply to the area of music. I disagree with that, because music is an action, not a piece of meat or any other inanimate object, and the passages do not apply to corporate worship. But where David is plainly in the garb of a servant, you see him in his underwear, so I can't expect that you see other portions of Scripture more clearly. Nonetheless, liberty is your main contention and the principle you're trying to hide behind now. What you fail to realize is, that if, indeed, you have the "liberty" to "worship with any kind of music you like," Rom. 14 and 1 Cor. 8 command you in no uncertain terms to regard the consciences of your "weaker" brothers. You are not given the out you're trying to take. And I'm not the one denying that to you. Christ is, you see, because He paid an awfully high price to justify me, too.

Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

1 Corinthians 8:11-12 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

But, you can rest assured that Aaron doesn't lose any sleep over what Mad Man and Scott do or don't do. I am here, though, by the hospitality of the webmaster, and as long as I have the right to be here, I have the right to point out the weaknesses and falsehoods in the doctrines being taught, and demand that you from the Scriptures justify your position as much as you demand that from me.

[ December 11, 2004, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Even in what you merely believe, you are making a judgment, but I don't care about what you merely "believe," only what you can justify.

Because Christ told us to worship with Spirit and in Truth. The Spirit Himself testifies in my heart that this is true.

This is an equally worthless assertion in the discussion, and just another way of saying that it's right because you believe that it's right.

 

The fact that you deny that the Spirit can testify such things says a lot about your own doctrine and theology. You've never been able to show concrete evidence that those who don't worship as you do are wrong. After how many years? It's right because the Spirit tells me that I am worshipping in Spirit and in Truth. After all, it is me that has to answer to my Creator, and I worship with a clean conscience. I do not nor will I ever have to answer to Aaron, and I'm quite thankful for that.

Your position is an untenable position and the last few years have shown that.

 

[ December 11, 2004, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Dale McNamee ]

 

Dear Aaron,

Please remember Romans 2:1-3: "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

2But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.

3And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?"

And Galatians 5:19-26: " 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,
fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,

20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions , jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions , heresies,

21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness , goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness, self-control . Against such there is no law.

24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another."

In Christ,

Dale

 

Dear Rob (Deacon) & Trotter,

I read your posts and agree wholeheartedly with you regarding worship music styles.

At my church's 11am Service,we have contemporary,traditional hymns,and sacred classical music in the service,all done with great reverence as befitting our Lord & Savior!

Also,"contemporary" means music by John Rutter,John Taverner,Arvo Paart as well as by Integrity,Hillsongs,etc.

In Christ,

Dale

 

Still, it is obvious that even a "consensus" of people can be wrong. OF course, they were all right about R&B 30 years ago, but wrong in accpting it, while ONLY looking down on Manson and grunge now, right? Or maybe, they were wrong 30 years ago, too. We are not getting any closer to determining what is good or not. It always comes back to what the "consensus" in the past was, and from there it gets to how they were so much more godly back then, so they were right, and us today, wrong. But all of this still just as much makes MAN the standard as saying "it is right because I like it". Attempts to make some men or groups, generations, cultures, etc "closer" to God, and therefore, bearers of the true standard, just do not fly.

And you have yet to show that dancing is one of those things that was allowed then, but forbidden now (like polygamy, divorce, etc). That sitting stiffly to plain music is what God always really wanted all along, and now demands only that in the age of "the Spirit".

The eating or not eating (avoiding) of meats are also "actions", so yes, the same principle does apply, perfectly.

True, but then if we listen to any claim any so-called "brother" makes, nobody would be able to do anything. It has to be a legitimate issue of "conscience", not culture, not strong preference, which you try to force on others. Because of the way this issue was pushed in the past, it did not appear to be an issue of conscience, but rather cultural bias, and this we are biblically not to yield to.

 

Dear Eric B.,

AMEN & AMEN! Another EXCELLENT post!

Like you, I wonder where Aaron gets his ideas regarding that "sitting stiffly,listening to plain music" is "worshipping in the Spirit & Truth." ?

From John 4:19-24:

" 19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."

21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

I don't see anything about "sitting stiffly,listening to plain music" in these passages!

In Christ,

Dale

 

Well, if you go to the text, you will find that the weaker brother's conscience was to the meat itself as an evil thing. Not in the action of eating it.

...but then if we listen to any claim any so-called "brother" makes, nobody would be able to do anything.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

But, your argument is ridiculous. The divisions that the music issue has caused in the church (and it is the CCM people dividing the church, not the other way around) would qualify it, if the passage really applied, and you think it does.

It has to be a legitimate issue of "conscience", not culture, not strong preference, which you try to force on others.

What made the meat evil? Conscience or culture?

Because of the way this issue was pushed in the past, it did not appear to be an issue of conscience, but rather cultural bias, and this we are biblically not to yield to.

Show me. (I'm from Missouri. )

 

The fact that you don't go to the Scriptures, but to private revelation shows that you are not a Baptist. Here's what I say to your revelations and prophecies:

If they line up with the Scriptures, they're needless. If they don't, they're false.

You've never been able to show concrete evidence that those who don't worship as you do are wrong. After how many years?

Just show me the concrete evidence that you do right, and I'll concede.

It's right because the Spirit tells me that I am worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.

Now, that's really something concrete there, Emerson. Keep your private revelations between you and God. Enter into thy closet and shut thy door.

After all, it is me that has to answer to my Creator, and I worship with a clean conscience. I do not nor will I ever have to answer to Aaron, and I'm quite thankful for that.

But, you see, as soon as it's in the open it becomes between you and me. You're saying that God is pleased with something that you cannot show from the Scriptures that He is. Who has the more untenable position?

 

Could either of you show me where I made such an assertion?

Didn't think so.

What I have said is that the spiritual mind finds pleasure and fulfillment in things the carnal mind finds "dry and dead." If you automatically equate spirituality with sitting stiffly and listening to plain music, that's you're own conclusion. Don't blame me.

 

My worship does not fail the Scriptural test of wosrhip. It is in accordance with every single aspect of what the Bible says, from Genesis all the way to Revelation. At no point does my worship contradict the Scriptures. My perspective of the Holy Spirit is completely in line with the Baptist Faith and Message, which reads:

You've been shown over and over that we are to worship with spiritual songs. You've been shown over and over that God accepts worship using a variety of instruments. You've been shown that God cares about the heart of the worshipper. Now, what part of my worship do you find unscriptural?

Sometimes we're meant to share Truth with others. Is that not what pastors and ministers do? Again, my understanding of the Holy Spirit is completely in line with the Baptist Faith and Message.

Cannot show from Scripture? My worship doesn't contradict the teachings of the Word one iota. Unless you can show a concrete contradiction, how can you make such statements?

 

Worship is not between you or anyone, Aaron, whether in the open or not. To borrow Louie Giglio's definition:

"Worship is our response both personal and corporate to the revealed character and nature of God... for Who He is and what He has done expressed in and by the things we say and the way we live."

Even in a corporate setting, my worship has nothing to do with you. Let's take for the sake of example posture in worship. If you're looking at me, wondering why I lift my hands or sing the songs I sing, your eyes are on me... not on God. THERE MUST BE A BALANCE. The burden is on BOTH of us.

You must be sensitive to the fact that God may be dealing with me differently than with you... even at the same moment. An appropriate posture for you during "I Love You, Lord" may be one of praise end excitement. At that exact moment, mine might be more introspective, and the appropriate posture for me may be bowing.

I must be sensitive to know that my expression of worship might be distracting to another brother or sister. If we both reach out with sensitivity to our God, knowing that we are in a corporate setting and place, than the issue might be resolved.

Now I know that posture was not the issue, but I bring it up to present a point. I know that Aaron and I don't agree on alot of points in this discussion, but I know that were I in his church in worship, I could still praise and worship the same God as I could in my church. Scott and I don't always agree either, but on this point we do.

Just my two cents, and probably not wanted, but given in love.

In His Grip,
joshua