Is it wrong to indulge the flesh in music?

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Eric B.,

Another excellent post!

You wrote: " "human interaction": in other words, what this is getting to, is because I see some other people over there using a certain style or beatfor sin, then it must be the music that is causing it, and therefore, God judges all who listen to it with that sin. (those of you who are new to this debate, this is part of an endless cycle of arguments that shift to the next when we answer one)

What then when we see people listening to stately classical music with an air of superiority and looking down their noses at that "juvenile" "jungle" music of the "savages" as one person here is calling it? (i.e. since classical is associated with "high culture", which has its own share of sins, such as pride in being more "civilized").

[ And don't forget "Manifest Destiny" which embodies that "cultural superiority": http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/E/manifest/manif2.htm ]

Is the person judged for the music, or for the sin in their hearts? Are all who listen to it to be judged for that sin? No, of course."

Eric,don't you know that some sins are "more OK" with some people than others ?

To these folks,drums and drumbeats are EVIL! Meanwhile, having an air of superiority and looking down their noses at that "juvenile" "jungle" music of the "savages" is GOOD!

And for the "civilized folks",it's ironic that authentic Christianity is growing in "less civilzed" countries such as Africa,Latin & South America,Asia,and the Pan Pacific while being silenced & dying in the "civilized" Western World! Just look at Europe and at the efforts to erase all traces of Christianity here in the good 'ol US!

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Trotter]

Amen, Dale & Eric!

Good to know that I am not alone.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Trotter,

Thanks!

You also made some very good points in your previous responses on this subject!

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Eric B]

Christianity is growing in "less civilzed" countries such as Africa,Latin & South America,Asia,and the Pan Pacific while being silenced & dying in the "civilized" Western World! Just look at Europe and at the efforts to erase all traces of Christianity here in the good 'ol US!

No, that's not the fault of the West. It's certain traitors (liberals, atheistic intellectuals, etc.), who are selling our birthright and thus destroying the culture. They have substituted a "feel good" "emotionally driven" Christianity that is capturing the world, and thus blends right in with the jungle culture it is spreading to.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Eric B:
"human interaction": in other words, what this is getting to, is because I see some other people over there using a certain style or beatfor sin, then it must be the music that is causing it, and therefore, God judges all who listen to it with that sin.

There you go again. Is music a form of human interaction or not?

Yes.

Will bad company corrupt good morals or not?

Yes. Be not deceived, evil communications corrupt good manners.

What then when we see people listening to stately classical music with an air of superiority and looking down their noses at that "juvenile" "jungle" music of the "savages" as one person here is calling it? (i.e. since classical is associated with "high culture", which has its own share of sins, such as pride in being more "civilized"). Is the person judged for the music, or for the sin in their hearts? Are all who listen to it to be judged for that sin? No, of course.

You're comparing apples and oranges. A man may be proud, and rest in his own morality, but that does not mean he isn't responsible to behave himself morally.

Immorality is never to be tolerated in any form of human interaction.

 

[Eric B]

The whole point is not your definition of "human interaction", bu rather what form of interaction a given style has, and whether this is really universal, or just a peson snatching up particular instances and feeding it through his own biases and preconceived assumptions of which style is good or bad.
The proud person may be "responsible to behave himself morally", but he himself must know what true morality is (and where it begins--in the heart and mind), and not unjustly judge others (according to appearance alone) while he ignores his own [invisible] sin.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Eric B:
The proud person may be "responsible to behave himself morally", but he himself must know what true morality is (and where it begins--in the heart and mind), and not unjustly judge others (according to appearance alone) while he ignores his own [invisible] sin.

If what styles of music are carnal and what are not is the topic at hand, then dispense with trifling over what someone is thinking in his heart. No doubt many CCM folks are sincere. That doesn't mean a thing.

Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his hunger; but stealing is still wrong, and if he be found... Prov. 6:30-31

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Aaron,

You wrote: " If what styles of music are carnal and what are not is the topic at hand, then dispense with trifling over what someone is thinking in his heart. No doubt many CCM folks are sincere. That doesn't mean a thing. "

But,it is a "heart" issue. Your very arguments
over "carnal" music point to that.

I have a few questions:

1.) Define "carnal music" as you,Aaron,believe it to be.

2.) Regarding "carnal",does the fact that a piece of music is enjoyable make it "carnal" ?

3.) Following on #2,if one enjoys singing and listening to traditional hymns and scared music,is that music "carnal" ?

4.) A conservative Christian radio station broadcasts hymns and other sacred music for the enjoyment of their audience. Does this make the music "carnal" ?

5.) Does a "time signature" (i.e.4/4) make a piece of music "carnal" ?

If so, you'd better not sing or listen to many of the hymns because they are mostly written in 4/4 time!

All of these questions point back to a "heart" issue. Purpose,intent,perception all reside in the heart.

In Ephesians 5:19,where we are instructed to: " Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord"

That pretty much sums it up that music and it's "carnality" are "heart" issues.

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Eric B]

If what styles of music are carnal and what are not is the topic at hand, then dispense with trifling over what someone is thinking in his heart. No doubt many CCM folks are sincere. That doesn't mean a thing.

And CCM critics may be sincere in thinking CCM is carnal, while only their style is "Spiritual", and that doesn't mean a thing either. You (they) think that your classification is so set in stone, but you have not been able to prove it, and as you judge, you can be judged as well.

 

[Aaron]

Bonga Dale,

I've already answered all those questions before, and in replies to your own posts. Let's see how good your memory is.

What do you think my answers are to those questions?

In Ephesians 5:19,where we are instructed to: " Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord"

That pretty much sums it up that music and it's "carnality" are "heart" issues.

It does? Can I hear the "music" in your heart?

If you're making music that I can hear, then it is no longer merely a matter of the heart.

 

[DHK]

I can't understand why so many Christians have a hard time defining "carnal," or "in the flesh" "worldly." The Bible has much to say about all of these related concepts.
I can think of two good examples which should suffice when it comes to the area of music. Often I hear the national anthem being played or sung (especially before sporting events). Very often it is sung patriotically with much reverence. The person singing sings out of respect for his or her nation and people. But sometimes there is the occasional person that loves to show off. The end of the "hymn" has to be dragged out with the singers voice almost screaming her own rendition of the anthem. She is not singing for the glory of her nation, but to her own selfish glory, and for her own attention. It is done out of the flesh.

The same holds true with "spiritual" music. You can see it very clearly on Gaither's Gospel Hour. There are some songs that are sung to God's glory, but not all. You can tell when a "performer," and that is all that some are there for--to perform for themselves (for self), is singing carnally, in the flesh. The ending is with the waving of the hand, the fluctuating of the voice, the drawing out of the end of the song much longer than normal, the extra added emotion (fleshly emotion). It is to self, not to God. It is a message of "see what I can do," rather than "Giving glory to God."
DHK

 

[Johnv]

The problem is this: Determining the manner in which a song is sung "for the glory of God" or "for the glory of the singer" is objective. As someone who has musical training, I personally enjoy when someone puts a fermata at the end of the next-to-last phrase. But you clearly don't. You find it glorifying the singer instead of the country. I find it glorifying to the country.

It's objective, and if one insists that it's "my way or the highway" as to what determines music to be sacred or unsacred, then the issue becomes one of legalism.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Johnv:

It's objective, and if one insists that it's "my way or the highway" as to what determines music to be sacred or unsacred, then the issue becomes one of legalism.

It is somewhat objective. But you surely can tell when someone is peforming and not singing to the glory of God. You could tell the difference when sometime ago Roseanne Barr "sung" or "performed" your National Anthem.
DHK

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Aaron,

You wrote: " It does? Can I hear the "music" in your heart?

If you're making music that I can hear, then it is no longer merely a matter of the heart. "

But,it is!

In Ephesians 5:19,where we are instructed to: " Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord " ,those spiritual songs & hymns are still a "heart" matter,even if they are now audible.

Why else would Scripture mention it in this verse ?

Is "carnal" music the result of a "carnal" heart ?

And,

Is "spiritual" music the result of a "spiritual" heart ?

Or are "carnality" and "spirituality" based on one's perception of the music ?

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear DHK,

You wrote: " The same holds true with "spiritual" music. You can see it very clearly on Gaither's Gospel Hour. There are some songs that are sung to God's glory, but not all. You can tell when a "performer," and that is all that some are there for--to perform for themselves (for self), is singing carnally, in the flesh. The ending is with the waving of the hand, the fluctuating of the voice, the drawing out of the end of the song much longer than normal, the extra added emotion (fleshly emotion). It is to self, not to God. It is a message of "see what I can do," rather than "Giving glory to God."

Would you say the same about those professionally trained singers who sing Handel's "Messiah",Bach oratorios,or Requiems by Faure',Durufle',& Mozart ?

Also,is there such a thing as objective,emotionless hymnody ?

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by DHK:
You could tell the difference when sometime ago Roseanne Barr "sung" or "performed" your National Anthem.

Funny, I imo, she did neither.

At least she admitted later that it was a mistake for her to sing it in public. I don't have the problem with her. I have a problem with the person who chose her to sing it in the first place, knogin full well that she can't sing.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

If I may...

It's not the syntactical construct of the Music, The Beat, The Chord progressions, or a multitude of other 'things'...

It's the warmth of the heart towards God...

Whether it's 'Get all excited go tell everybody', the latest CCM song, or Worship Chorus, or a stately old hymn...

What matters is the warmth of the heart towards God...

If the church is 'cold' even my most favorite CCM Praise and Worship will not be able to thaw the chill...

But, if the church *really* loves God it will be in evidence of the faces of the people as they sing even old (supposedly) dry hymns...

I prefer the old style Integrity/Hosanna Praise and Worship. Early Kent henry and Daniel Gardener because that is what is most comfortable for me and from which I can enter in the an attitude of Worship...

For me, personally, some of the newer CCM style Praise and Worship is too frenetic and gives no oppurtunity to enter into an attitude of worship...

Yet, I find many extremely dedicated young people who *are* well discipled able to Worship and Praise God in and with Music that, quite frankly, grates on my nerves...

Hmmmmmm...

Southern Gospel is not my favorite genre... But, I know a few Gospel Music Performers/Ministers and when I am around them the Spirit with which they present themselves and their music makes up for my personal distaste for that overall genre...

I have visited Baptist Churches with Pipe Organs singing stately old hymns with an ardor and emphasis that tells everyone they personally know the who they are singing about...

It is **easy** to worship in such venues!

But, I have also been to churches that had no life at all in their singing...

And, there were just as many CCM churches as there were 'Old School' churches...

What I am saying is that Music is subjective to the participant... It is a tool, a vehicle by which a person enters into a heart attitude of worship...

God is a Spirit and must be worship (from the heart) in Spirit and in Truth... The physics of the music, IMHO, don't mount to a hill of beans to my Heavenly Father...

What matters is the heart (attitude) and whether it be God Centered... Humble, Contrite (if need be)...

If I am so busy watching others, struggling to find the correct key to sing in, or fighting against an (to me at least) unnatural and tricky rhythm then I can't enter into Worship...

But, that doesn't give me the right to look around and judge all those that are, at least, trying to worship as best they know how...

After several weeks of not being all that active... I guess I shouldn't be all that surprised that nothing has changed and 'we' still would rather be 'right' (at least in our own eyes ) than extend Grace to one another...

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Dale McNamee:
Dear Aaron,

You wrote: " It does? Can I hear the "music" in your heart?

If you're making music that I can hear, then it is no longer merely a matter of the heart. "

But,it is!

As soon as I can hear it, it becomes an outward action which is, in itself, either right or wrong, good or evil, no matter what one might be thinking in his heart.

You (and SMM) are trying to say the heart is all that matters meaning that it's the thought in the heart that makes an action good or evil.

Men everywhere do wrong things sincerely thinking they are doing God a service. Just ask Saul of Tarsus. Christians are no exception.

You are correct when you say that spiritual music will flow from a spiritual heart, and carnal music from a carnal heart, but for a heart to be spiritual requires more than that the worshipper merely think he is spiritual, it requires that really be spiritual. This is something that can be judged, because his spiritual communication will be of a character wholly different than that of those with a carnal mind.

 

[ScottEmerson]

And I say that Aaron is not the judge of my heart. I believe that there are a great many people who sing praise and worship songs from a spiritual heart. All that I can attest to is myself, and I know that I sing purely when I worship, whether that style is made up of hymns or something more modern.

Aaron is quite wrong in his assertion, and has been for the last few years that I've been reading his stuff.

 

[chipsgirl]

I'm not sure I fully understand what this topic is about. Are you asking if it's wrong to enjoy every aspect of music? I love every part of the music I like (well sometimes the lyrics I can take or leave except with CCM)