Featured Dispensation(s)

That was a fantastic post TC

 

So, it's no longer what the Scriptures said, but what fools and the slow of heart perceived, that counts?

On the road to Emmaus:

Jesus: O fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory? (And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.)

Darrell: Haysoose! You be jive talkin' me, Bruh!

 

TCassidy, I would love to give your lengthy post 1,000,000,000 likes!! Hallelujah!

 

We will see the syllogistic conclusions drawn by mingling some truth with error.

This is presented as describing the Church Age, when in fact we have not seen fulfillment of this prophecy...yet.

And it is humorous to see certain applaud this error when it contradicts their own views, lol.

One point to illustrate the error: I guess this fellow does not keep up with the news. Not sure how he sees the nations at peace with each other.

Cannot possibly be a reference to the Church Age. It is Prophecy of the Millennial Kingdom.

Right. We see many nations flocking to House of God, which distinguishes where the Word of the Lord comes from...Jerusalem. We see the Word of God and His Law coming from...Jerusalem.

I guess this fellow hasn't read...

He tries to make the Jerusalem in the Prophecy the Jerusalem which is simply the source, rather than what the text presents, which is...Jerusalem.

Again we see that there will be peace among the Nations, so...

...neither is this Prophecy of the Church Age in the Old Testament.

It is Prophecy of the Millennial Kingdom.

Please back up and address how you see the nations at peace? How do we spiritualize...

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

...?

And since some have a hard time with long posts, unless they are the ones doing them, I will continue this.

This should be a fairly easy post to respond to.


Continued...

 

Depends on the text.

In the Prophecy of Daniel, sure.

But do we make every use of the word mountain mean government?

And can we create a syllogistic conclusion that tries to show prophecy of the Church Age in the Old Testament?

Can we ignore the usage in the Old?

Apparently...some feel they can.

And those who ignore the fact that the nations are still at war and the Prophecy has not been fulfilled have a bit of a problem.

Now, can we see other references to the Kingdom which will be established that have also not been fulfilled?

Sure. Let's stay in the same chapter this fellow sees prophecy about the Church Age in:


Isaiah 2:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.

18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Now folks, I am going to ask a simple question: is the Day here the same day that is spoken of in the proof-texts of the post in question?

Further...does the Lord speak about a different Day?

If so, maybe this fellow is on to something. If not...

Okay, let's take a quick look into the Book of Revelation:


Revelation 6:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Okay, another simple question: see anything familiar in the Prophecy that at the time of the writing of Revelation...was still Prophecy?

The point is this: the Church Age did not fulfill the prophecy. Okay, yet another simple point that should be easy enough to respond to.


Continued...

 

Not going to argue with that, I agree.

But how does that make this refer to the Church in the passage?

It doesn't.

I would agree with that as well, but the text states:

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.


Do we see that in this Age?

As the poster states...

This present church age as prophesied in the Old Testament.

No, and any argument presented that we do should embarrass the one offering it as much as we are embarrassed for them.

I would agree with this too. Now if only those applauding this "exposition" would understand that distinction. Simply hilarious.

But we don't see it in the proof-texts.

We don't see it in Isaiah 2, and we do not see it in Micah 4.


Continued...

 

Is that what the text implies? That this is just a spiritual reference to the "source?"

Or do we, by virtue of the Prophecy which is always left out in syllogistic efforts like these...see that in view is a Kingdom which is physical, with physical qualities that cannot be spiritualized away?

You tell me. When did we see this...

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.


...fulfilled.

How about this...


Isaiah 11:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

...?

Let's back up...

Luke 24:47

King James Version (KJV)

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Acts 2:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


More proof-texts, but if someone can show me how these support the premise of this post, that the Church Age, or the Church is found in Specific detail in Old Testament Prophecy, or, that the Prophecy used as proof-texts to the false and contrived argument presented here...

...please point out where.

Did the judgment of God on the earth fall on Jerusalem...at Pentecost?

No. And I will point out that this is said to happen...in AD70, lol.

Was it God that judged Israel in the First Century? Sure. Does it happen according to the Prophecy of Ezekiel and Revelation?

No.

Did Christ Return?

No.

Just not seeing too many plowshares and pruning hooks these days.


Continued...

 

I would agree. Prophecy can be seen to have partial fulfillment.

But that does not establish that men understood what is clearly revealed only in the Church Age.

Not one person has yet to address that point. Not one person has presented a credible presentation of the Body of Christ being understood by Old Testament Saints.

What we do see is a failure to do anything but present the same arguments over and over. This post is unique because what this fellow tries to do is straddle views, his motivations being questionable.

But if you would like some insight...check out my rewards.

I think you will wee how why someone would be motivated to present such syllogistic nonsense which merges and blends concepts.

What? lol

Proof-texts provided (and we notice most false teachers simply make vague references, because they know no-one will look them up to see if they are relevant):


Matthew 5:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God


Romans 12:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.


Now the simple question here is does this actually support the point he is trying to make? No.

We know this point cannot be made because we would have to discard other Prophecy:


Isaiah 65:19-25

King James Version (KJV)

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.


While we can see a spiritual application to the proof-texts, we certainly cannot see that the Prophecy was fulfilled, nor can we dismiss the very Promises of God.

No matter how one imposes what they want to believe in a text.


Continued...

 

reformed gave a brief an introductory post in post 18#
I disliked your response in 19# because as of yet you are commenting on something you do not seem to understand. I would like you to demonstrate you know what is being said before you move on to something else, or no progress will take place.

 

Fair enough. Point out what it is you think I do not understand and we will discuss it.

God bless.

 

A "Historic Pre-Millennialist" as understood through the teachings of men is a poor horse to bet on.

Best to trust in the true Historical Pre-Millennial views taught in Scripture, starting with the teachings of Christ, then Paul, then John.

Not one of these will agree with an interpretation that exalts the Church as the "final mountain."

That is simply a false teaching.

John teaches, Post-Ascension, that there will be another Mountain of men:


Revelation 17:9-12

King James Version (KJV)

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.


Daniel also taught of this Mountain:


Daniel 7:23-27

King James Version (KJV)

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


And we see the time in which these events will transpire...


Revelation 11:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


...which is during the Tribulation.

The Kingdom Antichrist takes power over has not yet arrived. While we can see application of the Prophecy of Daniel fit into historical events, that does not negate that Prophecy can often be seen to have an immediate fulfillment and a future fulfillment. And it is not until that Prophecy is fulfilled in completion that we would say it is done.

Any teaching that calls itself an Historical Premillennial view which not only obscures Prophecy but negates it is false and does not meet the Biblical standard of truth, hence it is not a valid use of the term.

This is about as logical as those who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses and then proceed to deny the very Word of God, wresting it to their own purpose.


God bless.

 

Do you believe we're obligated as Christians to believe "Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us", or go along with, ""Never mind what Israel does....God wants this to happen"?
http://www.wrmea.org/1988-december/...d-christian-fundamentalists-the-alliance.html

Is this where you're coming from?

If you don't like that article view this one:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4531.htm

Secularly, Dispensationalists are now referred to as Christian Zionists, i.e. 'Zionist-driven'.