That was a fantastic post TC
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Dispensation(s)
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
So, it's no longer what the Scriptures said, but what fools and the slow of heart perceived, that counts?
On the road to Emmaus:
Jesus: O fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory? (And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.)
Darrell: Haysoose! You be jive talkin' me, Bruh!
TCassidy, I would love to give your lengthy post 1,000,000,000 likes!! Hallelujah!
We will see the syllogistic conclusions drawn by mingling some truth with error.
This is presented as describing the Church Age, when in fact we have not seen fulfillment of this prophecy...yet.
And it is humorous to see certain applaud this error when it contradicts their own views, lol.
One point to illustrate the error: I guess this fellow does not keep up with the news. Not sure how he sees the nations at peace with each other.
Cannot possibly be a reference to the Church Age. It is Prophecy of the Millennial Kingdom.
Right. We see many nations flocking to House of God, which distinguishes where the Word of the Lord comes from...Jerusalem. We see the Word of God and His Law coming from...Jerusalem.
I guess this fellow hasn't read...
He tries to make the Jerusalem in the Prophecy the Jerusalem which is simply the source, rather than what the text presents, which is...Jerusalem.
Again we see that there will be peace among the Nations, so...
...neither is this Prophecy of the Church Age in the Old Testament.
It is Prophecy of the Millennial Kingdom.
Please back up and address how you see the nations at peace? How do we spiritualize...
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
...?
And since some have a hard time with long posts, unless they are the ones doing them, I will continue this.
This should be a fairly easy post to respond to.
Continued...
Depends on the text.
In the Prophecy of Daniel, sure.
But do we make every use of the word mountain mean government?
And can we create a syllogistic conclusion that tries to show prophecy of the Church Age in the Old Testament?
Can we ignore the usage in the Old?
Apparently...some feel they can.
And those who ignore the fact that the nations are still at war and the Prophecy has not been fulfilled have a bit of a problem.
Now, can we see other references to the Kingdom which will be established that have also not been fulfilled?
Sure. Let's stay in the same chapter this fellow sees prophecy about the Church Age in:
Isaiah 2:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Now folks, I am going to ask a simple question: is the Day here the same day that is spoken of in the proof-texts of the post in question?
Further...does the Lord speak about a different Day?
If so, maybe this fellow is on to something. If not...
Okay, let's take a quick look into the Book of Revelation:
Revelation 6:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Okay, another simple question: see anything familiar in the Prophecy that at the time of the writing of Revelation...was still Prophecy?
The point is this: the Church Age did not fulfill the prophecy. Okay, yet another simple point that should be easy enough to respond to.
Continued...
Not going to argue with that, I agree.
But how does that make this refer to the Church in the passage?
It doesn't.
I would agree with that as well, but the text states:
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
Do we see that in this Age?
As the poster states...
This present church age as prophesied in the Old Testament.
No, and any argument presented that we do should embarrass the one offering it as much as we are embarrassed for them.
I would agree with this too. Now if only those applauding this "exposition" would understand that distinction. Simply hilarious.
But we don't see it in the proof-texts.
We don't see it in Isaiah 2, and we do not see it in Micah 4.
Continued...
Is that what the text implies? That this is just a spiritual reference to the "source?"
Or do we, by virtue of the Prophecy which is always left out in syllogistic efforts like these...see that in view is a Kingdom which is physical, with physical qualities that cannot be spiritualized away?
You tell me. When did we see this...
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
...fulfilled.
How about this...
Isaiah 11:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
...?
Let's back up...
Luke 24:47
King James Version (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 2:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
More proof-texts, but if someone can show me how these support the premise of this post, that the Church Age, or the Church is found in Specific detail in Old Testament Prophecy, or, that the Prophecy used as proof-texts to the false and contrived argument presented here...
...please point out where.
Did the judgment of God on the earth fall on Jerusalem...at Pentecost?
No. And I will point out that this is said to happen...in AD70, lol.
Was it God that judged Israel in the First Century? Sure. Does it happen according to the Prophecy of Ezekiel and Revelation?
No.
Did Christ Return?
No.
Just not seeing too many plowshares and pruning hooks these days.
Continued...
I would agree. Prophecy can be seen to have partial fulfillment.
But that does not establish that men understood what is clearly revealed only in the Church Age.
Not one person has yet to address that point. Not one person has presented a credible presentation of the Body of Christ being understood by Old Testament Saints.
What we do see is a failure to do anything but present the same arguments over and over. This post is unique because what this fellow tries to do is straddle views, his motivations being questionable.
But if you would like some insight...check out my rewards.
I think you will wee how why someone would be motivated to present such syllogistic nonsense which merges and blends concepts.
What? lol
Proof-texts provided (and we notice most false teachers simply make vague references, because they know no-one will look them up to see if they are relevant):
Matthew 5:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God
Romans 12:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Now the simple question here is does this actually support the point he is trying to make? No.
We know this point cannot be made because we would have to discard other Prophecy:
Isaiah 65:19-25
King James Version (KJV)
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
While we can see a spiritual application to the proof-texts, we certainly cannot see that the Prophecy was fulfilled, nor can we dismiss the very Promises of God.
No matter how one imposes what they want to believe in a text.
Continued...
Whoo, T.
You are blending the prophetic statements of Millennial kingdom with THIS church age!
That is not good.
The key is "in the last days" of both Isaiah and Micah that you posted is to consider them applicable not the last days of this age, or the age of the church, but the last days of the earth's existence.
Here is Isaiah as you posted with emphasis added by me to focus the application.
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
(Can only happen in the Millennium - certainly never in this modern times when even Baptist believers don't agree on the BB)
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
(Where? Jerusalem - not some other geographical location. So when will the "house of the God of Jacob" exist again? During the Millennium)
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
(Where is the judgment held? - in Jerusalem. When in history has there been a time when the nations have come to Jerusalem and been judged, much less the nations learned war no more? ONLY in the Millennium)
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
(When in history will this take place? ONLY in the Millennium when The Lord Jesus Christ rules with the saints.)
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
(Again, when in human history will this take place? ONLY in the Millennium.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
(When? ONLY during the Millennium)
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
Please observe the following facts about these two prophecies: (AS THEY APPLY TO THE MILLENNIUM)
Then you list the facts.
Agreed - this will happen during the Millennium - not before.
Agreed
Not be a part, but there is specific judgment upon those that are NOT a part of the Kingdom in the Millennial reign. EVERYONE must be a part.
Agree that the church is established in the closing days of the "Mosaic dispensation." I completely disagree that you have Scripture authority to state that claim is the "last dispensation of time." The Scriptures consider at least two more. The great tribulation and the millennium.
Agreed, however, the going out is also a coming to in the prophecies - it wasn't a one way street.
Is or will that happen in this "church age." NO. That thinking is in direct conflict with the statements of not only Christ but the Apostles. Rather, the ONLY time line applicable is the Millennium.
Agreed - the kingdom (the millennial reign of Christ).
"Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" is a prayer showing the important Millennial Kingdom reign of Christ.
Daniel also prophesied about the church of Christ in his age. Perhaps the best and most noted prophecy by Daniel concerning the church deals with the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 2:31-35).
Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Please notice the following facts about the passage;
1. Nebuchadnezzar had a dream in which he saw a great image with a head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, and legs of iron and feet of part iron and clay.
2. He saw a stone, cut out without hands, strike the image upon its feet and destroy it; the stone went on to become a great mountain filling the earth.
3. The king was troubled about the dream, but was unable to recall it.
It was at this point that Daniel came upon the scene, the prophet was able to interpret the dream for the King.
Please notice the following facts in the interpretation by Daniel:
1. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he, as king of Babylon, was the head of gold and after him would arise another kingdom inferior to his kingdom (cf. v. 39). Then a third kingdom would arise followed by a fourth (cf. v. 40).
2. Since the stone was to strike the image in his feet, and since the feet represent the fourth kingdom, it follows that the kingdom of God was to be set up during the existence of the fourth kingdom. Please observe verse 44 in this connection, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed" (Dan. 2:44).
It is not too difficult to identify the kingdoms in the prophecy because we have a definite starting point, please observe the following facts in this regard:
1. Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar, king, app. 600 B.C. The kingdom fell about 536 B.C. "Represented by the head of gold."
2. Medo-Persia: Established by Cyrus, king of Persia, and Darius, king of Media, fell about 330 B.C. "Represented by the breast and arms of silver."
3. Macedonia (Greek Empire): Established by Alexander the Great. Divided among his generals about 323 B.C. "Represented by the belly and thighs of brass."
4. Roman Empire: Established as a world empire by Octavius Caesar about 30 B.C. "Represented by legs of iron, and feet of iron and clay."
"In the days of these kings, " therefore refers to a time when Rome ruled the world, "And smote the image upon its feet" signifies that the event would definitely occur during the reign of the fourth kingdom (i.e., Rome).
The New Testament begins its story while Caesar still ruled the world. "In those days came John the Baptist" (Matt. 3:1,2). In what days? "In the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Luke 3:1,2).
Summing up the prophecy of Daniel we notice the following five facts about the kingdom he foretold would come in the future:
1. It was to be established during the Roman Empire. And in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar John came saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand (Luke 3:1-6; Matt. 3:1-3).
2. This kingdom is to be established by the Lord. There is a sense in which all earthly kingdoms never were. This kingdom (the church) was established by the Lord, in person, present on the Earth, and is governed by him alone (Matt. 16:18; Eph. 1:20-23).
3. The kingdom to be set up by the God of heaven was to supplant all other kingdoms in that it is to become the last and final world power. According to Daniel's prophecy there will never be another earthly kingdom with world-wide dominion; that distinction indeed belongs to the kingdom of God.
4. This kingdom will never be destroyed. The kingdom Jesus built (i.e., his church), is to continue to the end of the world. Jesus is king in his kingdom now, Head of his Church now, and will reign until the last enemy (i.e. death) is overthrown (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Heb. 12:28).
5. The kingdom described by Daniel was to have a small beginning and later fill all the earth. Jesus spoke of his Kingdom as having a small beginning like the mustard seed (Matt. 13:31,32); he also refers to it as leaven in Matthew 13:33.
Finally, Isaiah prophesied that the Lord's House or his Kingdom would begin in the last days and the law would go forth from the city of Jerusalem (Isa. 2:2-4; Lk. 24:47). The Law went forth from Jerusalem (Acts 2:1-38). This was the beginning of the Lord's Church, the establishment of Messiah's Kingdom, in the days of the Roman Kings as prophesied by Daniel (Acts 2:1-4; 11:15).
Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not of this world." a statement in direct conflict with what you have attempted to put forth.
When is the ONLY time the King of Kings will PHYSICALLY reign in fulfillment of the prophetic statements?
When you view your statements in the light of a Millennial reign, than your statements can be taken with great agreement.
But ONLY when that Millennium is the final earthly outcome of the church.
As a chiliasm thinker, you must certainly see that as the truth.
Perhaps you have hoodwinked those who praise your post into believing you have become a-mil 0r some how post mil.
I am disappointed in your post, TCassidy.
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Not at all. The Kingdom of Christ is a spiritual kingdom.
During the Millennium. That is the whole point of being an "Historic Premillennialist."
Then why do you say the bible is "in direct conflict with what you have attempted to put forth?"
Yes, I know. I am an "Historic Premillennialist." What's your point?
What is your point?
What part of "Historic Premillennialist" are you having trouble understanding?Perhaps you have hoodwinked those who praise your post into believing you have become a-mil 0r some how post mil.
Why? For being an "Historic Premillennialist?"
The point is that it seems those who "liked your post" for the most part don't believe in a literal Millennium in conflict with your stated views of the past .
As a "Premillennialist" you would hold that it is during that specific Millennium not only is Christ's kingdom "spiritual" but "it is come" -that it is also physical in fulfillment of the prophecy in the most literal way that you posted of Isaiah and Micah.
In disagreement with your post, The Millennium is NOT of this church age, rather a future age in which the church (inclusive of all believers from beginning of time) rule with Christ on this earth, unobstructed by the enemy of the believers.
For those who are reading:
There is no historical nor present evidence that suggests that the church will one day usher in the golden age of rule, but such an age is started by the direct and purposed second coming of the Lord Jesus with the saints that immediately follows a time of growing world wide trouble, destruction and God's wrath. Just previous to this is the great apostasy that continues and grows as the time of God's wrath and God's feast approaches.
I actually find it most humorous that those a- and post-mil folks were so in agreement with someone who in fact rejects both views in favor of a literal Physical Kingdom ruled by a Physically present Christ on this earth which Premillennialist folks hold.
You will have to take that up with them, but I suspect their "likes" were based on the Historic Premillennialist understanding of the relationship between Israel and the Church which is closer to Covenant theology than either Darby or Chafer Dispensationalism.
Of course. As I said in my initial post there will be a yet future Millennium of 1000 years.
I never said the Millennium is of this church age. The Millennium is the final fulfillment of the church just prior to eternity future and the new heaven and new earth. What I believe is that the Millennium is the culmination of the church age.
And just who do you think has said "that the church will one day usher in the golden age of rule?" That is classic Post-Millennialism and has nothing to do with Historic Premillennialism.
Perhaps you failed to understand what it was about my post they were "liking." I would guess it was the nature of the relationship between Israel and the Church rather than the existence of a Millennial Kingdom.I actually find it most humorous that those a- and post-mil folks were so in agreement with someone who in fact rejects both views in favor of a literal Physical Kingdom ruled by a Physically present Christ on this earth which Premillennialist folks hold.
reformed gave a brief an introductory post in post 18#
I disliked your response in 19# because as of yet you are commenting on something you do not seem to understand. I would like you to demonstrate you know what is being said before you move on to something else, or no progress will take place.
Personally, I am neither a "Darby or Chafer" person. However, the typical Covenant theology's prevailing view of eschatology generally rejects the millennium as being literally understood, in favor of the a- or post mil views. There are, admittedly, some who are both Covenant thinking and do hold to a literal millennium.
As a result, there is not much difference between them and the historic premillennialist. However, that is certainly not in fellowship with many of the Covenant folks on this point and in more particular those of the BB which cannot distinguish between Darby and the historic premillennialist thinking.
I would guess it was the nature of the relationship between Israel and the Church rather than the existence of a Millennial Kingdom.
I would dare say that most Covenant thinkers are more like Darby in the view of the church as a separate covenant from any given to Israel.
They are quick to jump on Darby for this "church age" parenthesis, but the typical Covenant folk don't EVER include national/political Israel (in their rejection of the Millennium). Rather, they consider the gentile believers replaced Israel thus they stand in dispute with what Paul stated in Romans 11.
So, I reject your guess as the reason, and suggest that they agreed with what you posted on the basis of their misguided theological position as stated above.
I would be interested to see if any of them, who read the subsequent posts from the one that they agreed so much, would accept the literal millennium as the point the prophecies were ascribing.
Just wondering.
Fair enough. Point out what it is you think I do not understand and we will discuss it.
God bless.
You will have to take that up with them, but I suspect their "likes" were based on the Historic Premillennialist understanding of the relationship between Israel and the Church which is closer to Covenant theology than either Darby or Chafer Dispensationalism. Of course. As I said in my initial post there will be a yet future Millennium of 1000 years.I never said the Millennium is of this church age. The Millennium is the final fulfillment of the church just prior to eternity future and the new heaven and new earth. What I believe is that the Millennium is the culmination of the church age. And just who do you think has said "that the church will one day usher in the golden age of rule?" That is classic Post-Millennialism and has nothing to do with Historic Premillennialism.
Perhaps you failed to understand what it was about my post they were "liking." I would guess it was the nature of the relationship between Israel and the Church rather than the existence of a Millennial Kingdom.
A "Historic Pre-Millennialist" as understood through the teachings of men is a poor horse to bet on.
Best to trust in the true Historical Pre-Millennial views taught in Scripture, starting with the teachings of Christ, then Paul, then John.
Not one of these will agree with an interpretation that exalts the Church as the "final mountain."
That is simply a false teaching.
John teaches, Post-Ascension, that there will be another Mountain of men:
Revelation 17:9-12
King James Version (KJV)
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Daniel also taught of this Mountain:
Daniel 7:23-27
King James Version (KJV)
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
And we see the time in which these events will transpire...
Revelation 11:14-15
King James Version (KJV)
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
...which is during the Tribulation.
The Kingdom Antichrist takes power over has not yet arrived. While we can see application of the Prophecy of Daniel fit into historical events, that does not negate that Prophecy can often be seen to have an immediate fulfillment and a future fulfillment. And it is not until that Prophecy is fulfilled in completion that we would say it is done.
Any teaching that calls itself an Historical Premillennial view which not only obscures Prophecy but negates it is false and does not meet the Biblical standard of truth, hence it is not a valid use of the term.
This is about as logical as those who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses and then proceed to deny the very Word of God, wresting it to their own purpose.
God bless.
I am going to ask a serious question that needs to be taken in the light of not poking at any one, but merely to gather the information.
What EXACTLY separates the thinking of the Covenant folks (who in very brief words - consider Israel replaced by the church) and the Darby Dispensation thinking in which the church is a Parenthesis (again in very brief words - consider the Israel replaced by the Gentiles)?
Frankly, I know the "other stuff" that separates them, but on this one issue, are they not the same (replacement) but using mere terminology to attempt some modicum of differential that doesn't exist?
I want to hear from both the covenant camp and the Darby folks (or those who could explain the Darby thinking) on these questions.
But please, lets not get into the rest of who holds what, but merely restricted to this particular matter of basically rejecting Israel (physically and or Spiritually).
And for those who say, that is two questions, no.
It is one question, rephrased and repeated.
Thank you.
What EXACTLY separates the thinking of the Covenant folks (who in very brief words - consider Israel replaced by the church) and the Darby Dispensation thinking in which the church is a Parenthesis (again in very brief words - consider the Israel replaced by the Gentiles)?
Frankly, I know the "other stuff" that separates them, but on this one issue, are they not the same (replacement) but using mere terminology to attempt some modicum of differential that doesn't exist?
I want to hear from both the covenant camp and the Darby folks (or those who could explain the Darby thinking) on these questions.
But please, lets not get into the rest of who holds what, but merely restricted to this particular matter of basically rejecting Israel (physically and or Spiritually).
And for those who say, that is two questions, no.
It is one question, rephrased and repeated.
Thank you.
Covenant theology sees the Church as the New Israel. All of the promises made to National Israel in the Old Testament now apply to the Church.
Chafer dispensationalism says that the promises made to Israel in the Old Testament do not apply to the church (which is parenthetical in the timeline) but will be fulfilled to Israel at some future regathering of the Nation of Israel.
As with most extremes the truth probably lies somewhere in between.
Chafer dispensationalism says that the promises made to Israel in the Old Testament do not apply to the church (which is parenthetical in the timeline) but will be fulfilled to Israel at some future regathering of the Nation of Israel.
As with most extremes the truth probably lies somewhere in between.
Do you believe we're obligated as Christians to believe "Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us", or go along with, ""Never mind what Israel does....God wants this to happen"?
http://www.wrmea.org/1988-december/...d-christian-fundamentalists-the-alliance.html
Is this where you're coming from?
If you don't like that article view this one:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4531.htm
Secularly, Dispensationalists are now referred to as Christian Zionists, i.e. 'Zionist-driven'.
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