What are your thoughts on Jesus quoting "Ye are gods" ?

JonC · Feb 29, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
Please correct me then

What do you interrupt this verse?

Jhn 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

The Father hasn’t sent the Son into the world to condemn the world, but he entrusts all judgment to the Son. Verse 23 gives us the reason – that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The point is that the Son is at one with the Father. God is the Judge of all the earth (Genesis 18:25). But judgment has been entrusted to the Son. This isn’t an independent judgment but a judgment as reflection of that of the Father. Jesus will be the Judge (yet the judgment has also been pronounced). It is Christ-centered.

Acts 10:42 tells us this. It is Christ who has been appointed to Judge.

That is why Peter can insist that we call on God as Father who is also the one who will judge all men according to their works. This judgment is Christ-centered as through Jesus God is reconciling the world to himself (not through the Law, or moral obedience, etc….but through Christ).

TomLaPalm said:
Scripture plainly says the Father does not judge man..... The Son says He does not judge man

You say that neither the Father or the Son judges men. How do you interpret Acts 10:42 - "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead."?

TomLaPalm · Feb 29, 2016

JonC δοῦλος said:
The Father hasn’t sent the Son into the world to condemn the world, but he entrusts all judgment to the Son. Verse 23 gives us the reason – that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The point is that the Son is at one with the Father. God is the Judge of all the earth (Genesis 18:25). But judgment has been entrusted to the Son. This isn’t an independent judgment but a judgment as reflection of that of the Father. Jesus will be the Judge (yet the judgment has also been pronounced). It is Christ-centered.

Acts 10:42 tells us this. It is Christ who has been appointed to Judge.

That is why Peter can insist that we call on God as Father who is also the one who will judge all men according to their works. This judgment is Christ-centered as through Jesus God is reconciling the world to himself (not through the Law, or moral obedience, etc….but through Christ).

You say that neither the Father or the Son judges men. How do you interpret Acts 10:42 - "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead."?

It is simple, you are interpreting everything egocentrically , You have been tricked to think everything is about the flesh, not the spirit. You incorrectly consider the physical is more important or equal to the spiritual..

Jesus says

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

So the Father judgeth no man, the Son says the same, Yet you say they are wrong,

Act 10:42

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Where is man in this? you are biased to accept this to be human only yet you should see this is as it is written , whoever it was meant to apply, "living or dead" spiritually

God judges spiritual, and what the spiritual has had the opportunity to do as a man.

Heb 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

children are partakers, in the flesh

Jhn 3:5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

JonC · Feb 29, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
It is simple, you are interpreting everything egocentrically , You have been tricked to think everything is about the flesh, not the spirit. You incorrectly consider the physical is more important or equal to the spiritual..

Jesus says

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

So the Father judgeth no man, the Son says the same, Yet you say they are wrong,

Act 10:42

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Where is man in this? you are biased to accept this to be human only yet you should see this is as it is written , whoever it was meant to apply, "living or dead" spiritually

God judges spiritual, and what the spiritual has had the opportunity to do as a man.

Heb 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

children are partakers, in the flesh

Jhn 3:5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

On my way home this evening I was jamming out to Spandau Ballet (curtsey of xm radio). If I had known where this thread would go I’d have chosen Pink Floyd (got that on my iPod). I’ll explain some other time.

But I will note that this is the third time you have either accused me of denying Scripture or saying that God was wrong. I am going to ask that you at least try to address the dialogue and refrain from such ignorant assumptions. Where we disagree is in interpretation and I am more than willing to discuss that with you as it seems to be the reason that you have initiated this thread. I am not offended, I am not asking for an apology, and I am not calling your words an insult. I am asking you to police your statements for such foolishness prior to posting, and I will do the same.

Now to the topic at hand. I’m going to ignore the diversion about my focusing on the physical as more important or equal to the spiritual because I have never mentioned a primacy of the physical nor have offered a statement which would indicate that to be my belief. I have absolutely no idea where you came up with that tidbit, except perhaps in some previous nonlinear conversation. So let’s just ignore it.

Where are we at now? Oh, we got stuck on the judging part. You said that neither the Father or the Son will judge man and I said that there is a sense both will (the Father gives all authority to the Son, the Son will judge). You said that this denies John 5:22 and asked me how I interpreted the verse. I offered my interpretation – God judges all men (Gen 18:15). The Father is an impartial Judge who will judge everyone according to their deeds (1 Peter 1: 17). In John 5:21 Jesus claims not to simply be an instrument of God for restroing the dead to life, but he claims to have that authority to give life to whom he will (as the Father raises the dead and gives them life). In verse 22 Jesus, having claimed authority to raise the dead, also claims authority to execute final judgment…based on that same Authority. He is one with the Father.

Does this mean that neither the Father nor the Son will judge men? Not at all. Why? I’ve already told you my interpretation and reason. Does it deny those passage you bring up? No, only your interpretation of those passages you bring up.

Do you believe that we will be redeemed (physically)….that is, do you believe in the physical bodily resurrection of Christians (that, as Paul said, hope that defines our faith)?

TomLaPalm · Feb 29, 2016

JonC δοῦλος said:
On my way home this evening I was jamming out to Spandau Ballet (curtsey of xm radio). If I had known where this thread would go I’d have chosen Pink Floyd (got that on my iPod). I’ll explain some other time.

But I will note that this is the third time you have either accused me of denying Scripture or saying that God was wrong. I am going to ask that you at least try to address the dialogue and refrain from such ignorant assumptions. Where we disagree is in interpretation and I am more than willing to discuss that with you as it seems to be the reason that you have initiated this thread. I am not offended, I am not asking for an apology, and I am not calling your words an insult. I am asking you to police your statements for such foolishness prior to posting, and I will do the same.

Now to the topic at hand. I’m going to ignore the diversion about my focusing on the physical as more important or equal to the spiritual because I have never mentioned a primacy of the physical nor have offered a statement which would indicate that to be my belief. I have absolutely no idea where you came up with that tidbit, except perhaps in some previous nonlinear conversation. So let’s just ignore it.

Where are we at now? Oh, we got stuck on the judging part. You said that neither the Father or the Son will judge man and I said that there is a sense both will (the Father gives all authority to the Son, the Son will judge). You said that this denies John 5:22 and asked me how I interpreted the verse. I offered my interpretation – God judges all men (Gen 18:15). The Father is an impartial Judge who will judge everyone according to their deeds (1 Peter 1: 17). In John 5:21 Jesus claims not to simply be an instrument of God for restroing the dead to life, but he claims to have that authority to give life to whom he will (as the Father raises the dead and gives them life). In verse 22 Jesus, having claimed authority to raise the dead, also claims authority to execute final judgment…based on that same Authority. He is one with the Father.

Does this mean that neither the Father nor the Son will judge men? Not at all. Why? I’ve already told you my interpretation and reason. Does it deny those passage you bring up? No, only your interpretation of those passages you bring up.

Do you believe that we will be redeemed (physically)….that is, do you believe in the physical bodily resurrection of Christians (that, as Paul said, hope that defines our faith)?

[Edited by Administrator. Inappropriate accusation of unbelief.]

It is not about who judges but who is judged, We are condemned already, correct, The Father said He did condemn man and the Son said He did not judge flesh , so I was condemned as a spiritual being.

The physical resurrection of Christ was proof of the truth He said.

Why would I wan't this body? I am a soul/spirit, the physical is of little importance. Jesus confirms this statement

JonC · Feb 29, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
so you just choose to believe some scripture and not others, whatever suits your mind

Not at all brother. If I believed what ever suited my mind I'd be an Arminian.

I believe that all Scripture is true (even 1 Peter 1:13-21). Perhaps the issue is that I take a more literal approach to Scripture? (I ask this because I still don't see how you interweave "physical/ spiritual/ both/ one" into John 5:22 without some type of extra-biblical methodology).

JonC · Feb 29, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
It is not about who judges but who is judged, We are condemned already, correct, The Father said He did condemn man and the Son said He did not judge flesh , so I was condemned as a spiritual being.

The physical resurrection of Christ was proof of the truth He said.

Why would I wan't this body? I am a soul/spirit, the physical is of little importance. Jesus confirms this statement

I appreciate the idea that my body is not something I desire to have for the rest of my life.

The idea that the physical body is not important and the minimization of a new resurrected body is, IMHO, gnostic influence. I realize that it has as crept into our culture and churched We ignore the body because it doesn’t matter and pay attention to the spiritual things. In truth, we cannot attend to the spiritual but through our bodies. I suggest we should present our bodies as living sacrifices, which is our spiritual act of worship.

TomLaPalm · Mar 1, 2016

JonC δοῦλος said:
I appreciate the idea that my body is not something I desire to have for the rest of my life.

The idea that the physical body is not important and the minimization of a new resurrected body is, IMHO, gnostic influence. I realize that it has as crept into our culture and churched We ignore the body because it doesn’t matter and pay attention to the spiritual things. In truth, we cannot attend to the spiritual but through our bodies. I suggest we should present our bodies as living sacrifices, which is our spiritual act of worship.

Jhn 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him inspirit and in truth.

2Co 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

The flesh, even physical life , is only important as it affects the spiritual

JonC · Mar 1, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
Jhn 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him inspirit and in truth.

2Co 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

The flesh, even physical life , is only important as it affects the spiritual

Yet you, I take it, are here on earth longing for the redemption of your body.

TomLaPalm · Mar 1, 2016

JonC δοῦλος said:
Yet you, I take it, are here on earth longing for the redemption of your body.

I do not care about this body , it is only a vessel, not the real me.

percho · Mar 2, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
I do not care about this body , it is only a vessel, not the real me.

Permit me to ask.

YLT Rom. 8:23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

YLT 2 Cor 5:2 for also in this we groan, with our dwelling that is from heaven earnestly desiring to clothe ourselves,

Are those in bold the same? The hope of Romans 8:24,25?

and for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again. So that we henceforth have known no one according to the flesh, and even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him no more; 2 Cor 5:15,16

Should we care about that house from heaven?

1 cor 15:46 YLT but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

TomLaPalm · Mar 3, 2016

percho said:
Permit me to ask.

YLT Rom. 8:23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

YLT 2 Cor 5:2 for also in this we groan, with our dwelling that is from heaven earnestly desiring to clothe ourselves,

Are those in bold the same? The hope of Romans 8:24,25?

and for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again. So that we henceforth have known no one according to the flesh, and even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him no more; 2 Cor 5:15,16

Should we care about that house from heaven?

1 cor 15:46 YLT but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

Hurray for the Young's

Romans 8 23 is the redemption of the body ofChrist, not individual BODIES Body is singular plural. One body of Believers Ourselves is plural , It is not referring to countless bodies . but one

2Co 5:1

¶
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

our "body" of Heaven is not flesh and blood

I Cor 15 46 is comparing two things Adam and Christ , Natural and spiritual , etc.

Not ranking importance.

(this type of post seems famaliar, did we meet on another site previously?)

percho · Mar 3, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
Hurray for the Young's

Romans 8 23 is the redemption of the body ofChrist, not individual BODIES Body is singular plural. One body of Believers Ourselves is plural , It is not referring to countless bodies . but one

2Co 5:1

¶
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

our "body" of Heaven is not flesh and blood

I Cor 15 46 is comparing two things Adam and Christ , Natural and spiritual , etc.

Not ranking importance.

(this type of post seems famaliar, did we meet on another site previously?)

YLT Phil 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

Is the, body of Christ, the body of our humiliation?

Does Phil 3:21 take place at the same moment as the adoption, the redemption of the body, of we who groan together?

Considering 1 Cor 15:45 and 46 did the last Adam, come, born of woman in body of humiliation and then, afterward, after the resurrection have body of glory?

and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8 YLT

Phil 3:21
G5014
ταπείνωσις tapeinōsis

From G5013 Phil 2:8
G5013
ταπεινόω tapeinoō

From G5011

TomLaPalm · Mar 4, 2016

percho said:
YLT Phil 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

Is the, body of Christ, the body of our humiliation?

Does Phil 3:21 take place at the same moment as the adoption, the redemption of the body, of we who groan together?

Considering 1 Cor 15:45 and 46 did the last Adam, come, born of woman in body of humiliation and then, afterward, after the resurrection have body of glory?

and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8 YLT

Phil 3:21
G5014
ταπείνωσις tapeinōsis

From G5013 Phil 2:8
G5013
ταπεινόω tapeinoō

From G5011

We know flesh and blood will not enter the Kingdom of God, We also know we shall not all sleep but be changed,

To be subject to this human body and in the presence of sin was humiliation for Jesus . We too are in humiliation, but will be glorified..

The fleshly body is how unique individually created spiritual beings share in the Cross, the death of one can affect many, As sin of one man can affect many.

JonC · Mar 4, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
We know flesh and blood will not enter the Kingdom of God, We also know we shall not all sleep but be changed,

To be subject to this human body and in the presence of sin was humiliation for Jesus . We too are in humiliation, but will be glorified..

The fleshly body is how unique individually created spiritual beings share in the Cross, the death of one can affect many, As sin of one man can affect many.

For my understanding will you please clarify if I have misunderstood your comments. I understand you to be saying that you do not believe Christians will be resurrected bodily, but instead will experience eternal life as spiritual (not physical) beings. Have I misunderstood or is this your position?

Sent from my TARDIS

TomLaPalm · Mar 4, 2016

JonC δοῦλος said:
For my understanding will you please clarify if I have misunderstood your comments. I understand you to be saying that you do not believe Christians will be resurrected bodily, but instead will experience eternal life as spiritual (not physical) beings. Have I misunderstood or is this your position?

Sent from my TARDIS

not my comments, just from Jesus.

Jesus was bodily resurrected to show us He was who he said He was and that all He said was True.

What would my resurrection prove? Why do I want this body,\? Corruptible to the incorruptible, remember?

What age body do I get for eternity? No, this body I do not need.

Rev 4:2

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Bodies? We don't need no stinking bodies.

JonC · Mar 4, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
not my comments, just from Jesus.

Jesus was bodily resurrected to show us He was who he said He was and that all He said was True.

What would my resurrection prove? Why do I want this body,\? Corruptible to the incorruptible, remember?

What age body do I get for eternity? No, this body I do not need.

Rev 4:2

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Bodies? We don't need no stinking bodies.

I'm not arguing with you, just making sure I am tracking.

And while I'm not agreeing, I like how you summarize your view in that last sentence ...just wondering. The Treasure of the Sierra Madre or Blazing Saddles? [emoji2]

When you speak of Heaven, are you referring to a spiritual world or do you believe that the physical world will be renewed (Creation destroyed or reconciled)?

Sent from my TARDIS

TomLaPalm · Mar 5, 2016

JonC δοῦλος said:
I'm not arguing with you, just making sure I am tracking.

And while I'm not agreeing, I like how you summarize your view in that last sentence ...just wondering. The Treasure of the Sierra Madre or Blazing Saddles? [emoji2]

When you speak of Heaven, are you referring to a spiritual world or do you believe that the physical world will be renewed (Creation destroyed or reconciled)?

Sent from my TARDIS

Reconcile suggest a previous relationship restored , are you sure you want to go there?

JonC · Mar 5, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
Reconcile suggest a previous relationship restored , are you sure you want to go there?

Yes, I am positive I want to go there, so much so that I will stand on the conviction that God was through Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

Sent from my TARDIS

TomLaPalm · Mar 5, 2016

JonC δοῦλος said:
Yes, I am positive I want to go there, so much so that I will stand on the conviction that God was through Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

Sent from my TARDIS

So ,when in our doctrine did we ever had a relationship with God, that was broken and now is/ being reconciled?

JonC · Mar 5, 2016

TomLaPalm said:
So ,when in our doctrine did we ever had a relationship with God, that was broken and now is/ being reconciled?

I don't know about "our" doctrine, but Paul tells us in 2 Cor 5 that through Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, and in Col 1 that through Christ God reconciles all things. We are even told in Rom. 5 that while we were enemies we have been reconciled to God through Christ's death. I'll stick with reconciled.

Sent from my TARDIS

What are your thoughts on Jesus quoting "Ye are gods" ?

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