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"What distresses me most about Baptist churches today is that they baptize people who show no signs at all of being converted. "

So what? If you actually believe what you say you believe no one can worsen or better a person's chance at salvation since it is solely based on God acting.


"That is a dreadful wickedness, sending people to hell with a pocket-full of false promises in their hands, and the Pastors of such churches will not escape judgement for it (Ezekiel 2:18; James 3:1)."

So what? Once saved always saved. whoops, well they got saved to begin with.

Did you confront and warn this pastor?

As long as your pulling up Ezekiel

Ezekiel 33

7“Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them warning from Me. 8“When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand. 9“But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life.

 

I see you have chosen to divert from the rest of the post in order to escape down another rabbit trail.

Peter is quoting this portion of Joel's prophecy to explain the speaking in tongues and sign gifts that were being heard that day but the baptism in the Spirit was confined to an upper room that was neither seen or heard by the crowds. This is not an explanation of the baptism in the Spirit but the manifestation of spirtiual gifts which followed the filling of the Spirit. He is not explaining the "baptism" but the "pouring out" of the Spirit in spiritual gifts. Note the contextual reason Peter quotes Joel:

For these are not drunken, as you suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, said God, I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath;

"THIS IS THAT"! What is that? What the crowd was describing due to being drunken - speaking in tongues - or the sign gifts of the Spirit not the baptism in the Spirit but the POURING OUT of the Spirit in sign gifts.

ALL FLESH did not speak in tongues when Peter quoted this BUT the baptism had already occured BEFORE he quoted it. ALL FLESH did not prophesy when Peter quoted this BUT the baptism had already occurred BEFORE he quoted it. The only flesh that he applied it to was those who were speaking in tongues. The Spirit was not poured out on "LOST" flesh but only those speaking in tongues.

At the end of the day the Spirit had not been poured out on "ALL FLESH" because not ALL flesh had been saved on Pentecost.

Moreover, reception of these sign gifts was not merely based on being saved but being baptized into the congregation (Acts 2:38-39) showing they were not automatic at the point of salvation but sign gifts are for SERVICE.

Moreover, it would seem these sign gifts were restricted to the 12 apostles as it is only through THEIR HANDS such gifts were being manifested up to Acts 6 and it is not until they laid their hands on others did others receive these gifts.


Finally, this is PARTIAL fulfillment of Joel as Peter stopped right in the middle of Joel 2:31 before its final fulfillment at the Second Coming of Christ.

Joel's prophecy about "all flesh" at this point in time was merely potential with regard to ultimately Gentiles being recipients rather than merely just the Jews.

The coming of the Spirit had many different facets with regard to the establishment of a visible covenant administration. The baptism of the new public house of worship was just one facet. Spiritual gifts as signs of the apostolic office was another facet (2 Cor. 12;12) in connection with completing the Bibical canon is another facet. You are confusing the various facets. Baptism and filling are not the same as filling occurred before Pentecost. If you think not try to use the terms interchangably when you are at the gas station next time. Pouring out spiritual gifts and baptism are not the same as the Spirit was poured out or came upon people for spiritual gifts previous to the baptism in the Spirit. However, this is first time the Spirit is poured out to this extent upon "all flesh" that would eventually include the Gentiles.

 

Happy Thanksgiving to all! I will be taking a break until Friday, so if I don't answer that is why.

 

You have no understanding of Free Grace theology. Although God is sovereign, everyone is still responsible for his actions.

1. 'Once saved, always saved' is an erroneous teaching. I believe in the Perseverance of the Saints.
2. If people show 'no signs at all of conversion' the chances are that they are not converted.

I have flagged it up on this forum, thereby warning dozens of pastors.

 

It does count in that itis 1 of he 2 Ordinances Jesus commanded to us, bu does NOT count in salvation, nor in who is in the Body!

And Immersion isthe best way, but do allow for other modes as long as the person knows Jesus is thei Savior/Lord!

 

Do you think the Holy Spirit does not set and seal each saved person in Christ then?

 

That was not though the Roman Catholic Church, as it did not have the Papacy/Cardinals etc!

 

Yes, as the sinner receives the Spirit/sealed/placed into Christ by Him at rebirth.
No, as we are to be refilled daily, but that other stuff happens one time when saved!

 

"POPE" is honorific title the office is Bishop of Rome. Now if you made out "pope" to mean king of the catholics, presdent of the earth, commander of Christianity. You are mistaken.

Cardinal surprisingly means what it is. "hinge" in the sense people pointed out as being integral, principal, chief. You are cardinal to your family.


Your argument is like saying there is no Christian Airplane Pilots in the bible.......therefore since you do have Christian Airplane Pilots , then you can't be Christian.


Here are the cardinals in the bible:

Acts 15

19“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23and they sent this letter by them,


Joe Blow couldn't stand up in this meeting and say well guys WE PAGANS think that holy spirit says we should worship ten more gods, because he is not hold a important or CARDINAL office in the church the church. Your heart is CARDINAL to keeping your blood pumping. You might have cardinal rules at home.



Look you say your are right and I am wrong, I say you are wrong and I am right.

Lets play this game by your rules WITHOUT CARDINALS.

As a church how do we decide? Lets hold a meeting I got 1.2billion votes ready to tell you, you are wrong. I know you won't agree to it.

You would only consider particular folks as CARDINALS in your own magisterium circle. I can't walk in and have a authoritive say in your congregation.

The main difference between us is, we're already ahead of the curb 2000 years naming stuff you always took for granted.

You have an authority made up of PEOPLE. Can we vote I am king of the Baptists? I got 1.2 billion votes and you got maybe 15-30 million votes.

Everything you do you decide in congregation by vote, But hypocrites don't want a fair vote. A Nazi isn't going say Jew votes count. They going to say Jews are evil, greedy and thieves and worship pagan gods.

Accusation is a virtue of the Devil. Keep your eye on who finger points who with stories. You would not go to a Nazi to learn about Jewish culture. You went to a protestant to learn about Catholicism.....what a joke.

If I want to learn about what Calvinist think, I go James White, Spurgeon, Sproul, Piper.

I would be mistaken to learn from their opposition.

 

The Bible clear;y teaches tat Jesus will baptise His own in/by the Holy Spirit, and that is fo all who are saved, and tha we also will have water baptising going own!

 

Jesus stated that hwould baptize Hos own in/by the Holy Spirit,Paul stated that we are to be Baptized, ande did not evn make a big deal out of water baptising, somust be theone Jesu referred to it being!

 

There is only one baptism.


I find it amazing the folks who think baptism is symbolic and then insist a person has to be dunked or have a say in being baptized.


God isn't limited to neither physical or spiritual mechanics. The holy spirit doesn't have to punch a train ticket to visit your town.

 

Even more incrdible that some would see original sin cleansed by mere water, and that the Holy Spirit coms into the baby a that tme!

 

God makes the final call on how he dispenses grace and salvation, even "mere water" if he wills it.

Even the Blood of Christ is "mere blood" its not that it had some radioactive sin forgiving holy juices, We don't dictate the mechanics of how things are done to God, He makes the calls.

 

I think there was prophecy at the house of Cornelius. Firstly, Acts 10:45-46 and 19:6 are of a piece; they are very similar. Prophecy, as I said before, is not always (or even usually) foretelling, but forthtelling- speaking forth the words of God. Secondly Acts 10:46, 'For they [Peter and his colleagues] heard them speak in tongues and magnify God.' The magnifying of God could certainly be a prophetic word. Thirdly, Acts 11:15, 'And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as on us at the beginning.' Consider Acts 2:36, 'Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.' This is a prophetic word, speaking forth publicly the counsel of God. If the Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius & Co the same was he came upon the apostles, they must have prophesied.

It would make as much, if not more sense to divorce verse 3 from verses 1 & 2. Verse three starts with kai just as verse 4 does and deals with the effects of this immersion just as much as verse 4.

I can't believe that you are calling Peter a liar just to support your theory!! The people ask, "Whatever could this mean?' (Acts 2:12); Peter answers, "This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel (v.16). The Holy Spirit came down on that day and He has never withdrawn Himself.

They waited in Jerusalem so that the coming of the Spirit could be witnessed by thousands of people from all over the Roman world at Pentecost and 3,000 could be saved in one day. The Spirit came down in a new, more powerful way and in that same way He has continued ever since.

Luke 3:7. 'Then [John] said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?........."' There is no mention that these people were 'a certain group' or that John refused to baptize them. This seems clearly to have been his approach to all who come out to be baptized. He told them they were sinners and told them to 'bear fruits worthy of repentance.' He answered questions as to what this meant (Luke 3:10-14) and then presumably he baptized them if they professed repentance. Nowhere does it say that he refused to baptize anybody. Even the Pharisees seem to have made the decision not to be baptized, rather than being refused by John (Luke 7:29-30). Now bearing in mind that all this was pre-Pentecost and the coming of the Spirit in a fuller way, it is my contention that most of these people were not saved and that most of them turned away from the Lord (John 1:11; Matthew 11:18-20ff; John 6:66; John 8:31ff; Matthew 21:43). I do not believe that John 1:4-5 proves anything. It is my contention in the light of Matthew 3:5-6 that many of those repenting in Acts 2:37 would have previously been baptized by John and were given Trinitarian baptism by the apostles.

On the contrary, I do not see that JTB's words can have any other connotation. John is not saying that water baptism gives eternal life; he is saying the exact opposite. He is warning the Jews that coming out to him to be baptized will do them no good if their repentance is not genuine.

I absolutely deny that these people had eternal life absent repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, which no one without the Spirit can have (1 Corinthians 2:14).

You are opening up a whole new can of worms here. Our definition of 'baptism in the Spirit' is obviously different and I don't have time to pursue it. I have one more of your posts to reply to on another thread and then I shall be taking time out from this forum for a while. I am spending much too much time here.

 

This is nothing but a rabbit trail designed to avoidthe fact that the baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with union in Christ as I have proven that already and you and no one on this forum has been able to disprove and here is the proof again:

1. ALL "in Adam" are "in the flesh" (phsyical union) because they have been "BORN of the flesh" without any kind of baptism or church membeship

ALL "in Christ" are "in the Spirit" (spiritual union) because they have been "BORN of the Spirit" without any kind of baptism or church membership.

2. ALL "in Adam" had been CREATED in Adam, likewise, ALL"in Christ" have been "CREATED in Christ" by new birth (Eph. 2:1-10) not by any kind of baptism or church membership.

3.No baptism in the Spirit (as you define it) preceded Pentecost and so no one could be "in Christ" as you define it previous to Pentecost and there is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at any time thus repudiating your theory altogether as your theory demands ANOTHER WAY of salvation OUTSIDE Christ before Pentecost.

4. The NT church cannot precede its own "foundation" which consists of NT materials (apostles) FIRST being "set in" the church by God not OT people of God thus repudiating your whole theory as you define "in Christ" as synonymous with being in the church body of Christ. Thus again, your theory demands another way of salvation prior to Matthew.


5.ALL "in Adam" have been born into this world in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God and that is the how Paul uses the descriptive phrase "in the flesh" in Romans 8:8 and ALL who are "in the flesh" in that spiritual sense are "NONE OF HIS" - Rom. 8:9 - whereas ALL of his are "in the Spirit" which he defines as synonymous with "indwelt by the Spirit" or SPIRITUAL UNION - Rom. 8:9

6. Spiritual SEPARATION which is spiritual DEATH and this is the universal problem and the ONLY possible universal solution to this problem is Spiritual UNION which is spirtual LIFE and that is what BIRTH/quickening NOT any kind of baptism or church membership.

This is not a new can of worms as this part and parcel with any Biblical examination of spiritual union - one must define what they are talking about.

Now, to answer your rabbit trail arguments:

On Pentecost the promise is that those upon the Spirit is poured out shall prophecy in addition to tongues. Peter is the one speaking in this context not Cornelius. No prophetic utterances occurred in this context by Corneilus.

Not only so, but Acts 8 and 19 the gifts were not communicated directly by God as in Acts 2 and 10 but THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF APOSTOLIC HANDS.

Deal with the issue I placed squarely in front of you instead of ignoring it. Baptism is not filling as filling occurs BEFORE pentecost so you are trying to confuse what Scripture separates distinctly from each other. The pouring out followed being "filled" and had to do with SPIRITUAL GIFTS not the baptism in the Spirit. There are multiple facets of the promise of the Spirit that are distinct and seaprate from each other which you are attempting to confuse and fail to distinguish.

The contextual antecedent for "this" is not the baptism in the Spirit as that was neither seen or heard as it occurred in the upper room. It is after the "filled" apostles came down among the crowds where they were seen and heard, and specificall it was tongues they heard which they accused them of being drunk, it was "THIS" that Peter in context is referring to by the prophecy of Joel which also refers to ANOTHER facet of the coming of the Spirit which is SPIRITUAL GIFTS not the baptism in the Spirit.

Context!!!! ONLY the 120 were the objects of this baptism as they ALONE were in that upper room where this baptism occurred. ONLY these "galleans" were objects of the pouring out of the Spirit in SPIRITUAL GIFTS. NTHER BELEIVERS in Israel were the objects of these things and that is why Peter could tell Cornelius that the nearest reference point was "AT the beginning" becuase this was not a REPEATING action upon ANYONE ELSE since Pentecost.

These are rediculous arguments! Matthew 3:6-8 makes it clear there were those john was baptizing and there are those who showed up that he refused to baptize or the words "bring forth fruits of repentance" makes no sense if there were no obstacle to baptizing them.

Where have I ever said water baptism gives eternal life to anyone. Where does the text say that? Where does the text says baptism in the Spirit gives life to anyone? NOWHERE except in your fruitful imagination and theological biased mind.

Readers take note of this denial by Martin as it is what he must deny to be consistent with his position. However, both Jesus and JTB contradict and repudiate Martin's position by using the PRESENT TENSE promise of eternal life upon faith in him (Jn. 3;16; 3:36; 5:24; 6:37-39; 10:27-30) and Jesus tells his water baptized believing disciples their names are aleady written in heaven (Lk. 10:40). He tells them as individuals they already "have" the Spirit with them.

Martin and his allies would have you believe Christ and John are lying when they promise eternal life in present tense to all who belief the gospel.

 

God already declared to us that salvation is by Grace alone, thru faith alone, and so no water or sacrament has ANYTHING to do with saving a sinner!

 

John th Baptist decared Jesus would baptize His own in th eHoly Spirt, as did Paul, as THAT was when the sinner received the indwelling and sealing into Jesus and eternal life!