OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test

Yeshua1 · Jan 6, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑

To repeat.

1. God is in the business of evangelizing unbelievers. That is the whole point of the Gospel and Jewish saints are listed in Hebrews 11.
2. "you stand only by your faith" and "you must persevere in doing good -- or else" message of Romans 11 is not at all about "persevering as an unbeliever" -- it is spoken to a believer -- telling the believer they must persevere in their position or else be cut off as were jews who chose unbelief.

Your argument is "with the text"

It is Paul that identifies them this way

1. but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
2. God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness

That is not the identification of an "unbeliever" -- this is incredibly obvious to all of us.

your question then is to Paul -- asking why he is warning the believer against turning to unbelief

21 for if God did not spare the natural branches (Jews), He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

"otherwise" is pointing to a different future - instead of a "continue in his kindness" future - the one who 'stands by faith" may in the future choose some other course and is being warned not to do that... warned to "persevere" as Paul also says in Romans 2.

Your question is to Paul.

you can not fail to "continue" to persevere in something you never had to start with -- your statement is expressed in the form of a self-contradiction so that it could never happen -- which is a good example of what we do NOT find Paul writing in Romans 11.

You knew that right?

By contrast these are examples of statements that are not self-conflicted

1. If you DO persevere as a lost person in your unbelief - you will still be lost.
2. If you do NOT persevere as one 'who stands by faith" and so in the future you choose not to "continue" in his kindness - you will be lost

OSAS does not survive the test of Romans 11 and this is obvious to unbiased objective Bible students.

"reworking" or "fixing" the text as with all the texts in my list - is what OSAS "needs" to do ... but in this case there is 'no fix' that makes sense so it is stuck ignoring almost every detail in the text in its efforts to "rewrite it" to fit.

What false doctrine in the dark ages could not "thrive" if such methods in wrenching the text were legit? We all know that 'nothing' would have been rejected in such a case.
Click to expand...

So there is a sin that the saved commit that the blood of Jesus can not deal with? That the Holy Spirit can be overpowered and driven out of us?

Yeshua1 · Jan 6, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑

Which brings them to salvation -- having experienced "full forgiveness of sins"

But then... "they live another day" - in that day Romans 2:4-16 applies
And in that day Matthew 18:32-35 applies
And in that day 1 Cor 9 applies

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached (the gospel) to others, I myself should be a castaway.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Click to expand...

Does castaway in this passage mean lose salvation?

steaver · Jan 6, 2018

utilyan said: ↑

This is the easy thing for you to prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

"For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

There goes your commandment keeping salvation right out the door! You do believe what Pope Peter had to say don't you? ...ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

utilyan said: ↑

Paul is not the pope. Moses is not God. Moses Law is like circumcision 613 jewish laws.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Apostle Paul, not Pope Peter.

SO your answer is Paul is not talking about all the Law, not the ten commandments, and Moses Law is something different than God's Law?? Is that your solution for believing your commandment keeping justifies you before God? Even though Paul says salvation is "not of yourselves" Eph 2?

BobRyan · Jan 6, 2018

Even on other threads - people are asking for thisi

BobRyan said: ↑

[/COLOR]

Matthew 18 the teaching of Christ is "I forgave you ALL that debt" - shouldn't you after having experienced FULL forgiveness have forgiven your brother?

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

If we are Christians then by definition we listen to the teaching of Christ.
Click to expand...

BobRyan said: ↑

Until you read the text ...

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive (GENTILE) were grafted in among them (JEWS) and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they (JEWS) were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches (Jews), He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree (i.e. - a believing gentile), and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

"every branch IN ME"

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3...6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Christ is not in the business of taking all the lost and casting them away - rather He draws them to Himself for salvation.

The ones being cut off and cast away are the one's "IN ME" that do not bear fruit.
Click to expand...

utilyan · Jan 7, 2018

steaver said: ↑

"For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

There goes your commandment keeping salvation right out the door! You do believe what Pope Peter had to say don't you? ...ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

Sorry, Apostle Paul, not Pope Peter.

SO your answer is Paul is not talking about all the Law, not the ten commandments, and Moses Law is something different than God's Law?? Is that your solution for believing your commandment keeping justifies you before God? Even though Paul says salvation is "not of yourselves" Eph 2?

Click to expand...

This is the easiest challenge of all.

Show me that saved fella who hates God and hates his neighbors. Give me a name.

Then you can name one fella who loves God and loves neighbor and is damned.

Piece of Cake.

Name one, and then you are absolutely correct!

You can't name any, its because you are absolutely WRONG.

steaver · Jan 7, 2018

utilyan said: ↑

This is the easiest challenge of all.

Show me that saved fella who hates God and hates his neighbors. Give me a name.

Then you can name one fella who loves God and loves neighbor and is damned.

Piece of Cake.
Click to expand...

That certainly would be a piece of cake. Anyone who says they love God and hates his neighbor is a liar if he says he is saved (Apostle John)

David, a man after God's own heart, found his good deeds and commandment keeping could not justify himself before God, he needed the blood of Jesus Christ whom He looked forward to, his Savior. what sayeth the scripture?

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." (Ps 51:10)

"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" (Proverbs 20:9)

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

There goes your commandment keeping salvation right out the door! You do believe what Apostle Paul had to say don't you? ...ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

BobRyan · Jan 8, 2018

steaver said: ↑

That certainly would be a piece of cake. Anyone who says they love God and hates his neighbor is a liar if he says he is saved (Apostle John)

David, a man after God's own heart, found his good deeds and commandment keeping could not justify himself before God, he needed the blood of Jesus Christ whom He looked forward to, his Savior. what sayeth the scripture?

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." (Ps 51:10)

"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" (Proverbs 20:9)

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

There goes your commandment keeping salvation right out the door! You do believe what Apostle Paul had to say don't you? ...ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."
Click to expand...

1. How is it that a person can accept the Gospel offered through the blood of Christ? -
2. How is it that a person can lose salvation as in the Matthew 18 example of "forgiveness revoked"

Free will - in both cases is required. It is not the "blood of Christ" that changes ... but the free will choice of the man.

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His own received Him not" -- why is that? Is it "deficient blood of Christ"?? or is it the free will choice of "His OWN" in that case?

You and I and Utilyan all know that It is the free will choice.

BobRyan · Jan 8, 2018

Which brings them to salvation -- having experienced "full forgiveness of sins"

But then... "they live another day" - in that day Romans 2:4-16 applies
And in that day Matthew 18:32-35 applies
And in that day 1 Cor 9 applies

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached (the gospel) to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Yeshua1 said: ↑

Does castaway in this passage mean lose salvation?
Click to expand...

John 15 "Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is cast away... burned in the fire"

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified (from it).

Paul seeks to "attain" to the resurrection of the dead at the first resurrection

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

utilyan · Jan 8, 2018

steaver said: ↑

That certainly would be a piece of cake. Anyone who says they love God and hates his neighbor is a liar if he says he is saved (Apostle John)

David, a man after God's own heart, found his good deeds and commandment keeping could not justify himself before God, he needed the blood of Jesus Christ whom He looked forward to, his Savior. what sayeth the scripture?

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." (Ps 51:10)

"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" (Proverbs 20:9)

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

There goes your commandment keeping salvation right out the door! You do believe what Apostle Paul had to say don't you? ...ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."
Click to expand...

"That certainly would be a piece of cake. Anyone who says they love God and hates his neighbor is a liar if he says he is saved (Apostle John)"

How deceptive,

Lets look at what he really says without butchering and shoving in words for a fake evil verse.

1 John 4

20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

First it says CANNOT love God. You can't even get to being saved or regenerate or accept Jesus/God. You have no capacity to love God unless you have the capacity to love your brothers and sisters you do see.

Wow a illiterate would claim this passage tops off with some "LAW OF MOSES" the COMMANDMENT of Jesus Christ, something we are not required to do.

Lastly, get glasses or have someone read the challenge to you. You can't even get what I am saying right, its no surprise you have the bible all messed up.

You have failed miserably:

Here it is again:

This is the easiest challenge of all.

Show me that saved fella who hates God and hates his neighbors. Give me a name.

Then you can name one fella who loves God and loves neighbor and is damned.

Piece of Cake.

The entire point of contention is you claim there is someone who hates God in heaven.

The commandment LOVE GOD is required.

Yeshua1 · Jan 8, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑

Which brings them to salvation -- having experienced "full forgiveness of sins"

But then... "they live another day" - in that day Romans 2:4-16 applies
And in that day Matthew 18:32-35 applies
And in that day 1 Cor 9 applies

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached (the gospel) to others, I myself should be a castaway.

John 15 "Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is cast away... burned in the fire"

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified (from it).

Paul seeks to "attain" to the resurrection of the dead at the first resurrection

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Click to expand...

We are before salvation spiritual corpses, so go into a cementary and preach all night, any takers?

BobRyan · Jan 8, 2018

Yeshua1 said: ↑

We are before salvation spiritual corpses, so go into a cementary and preach all night, any takers?
Click to expand...

So we should "delete the bible pages" wherever we find satan "blinding the eyes" of the lost or the lost having their "hearts hardened" since all of that shows "activity" that is "worsening" when in fact they supposedly start off at the worst point - dead and unable to choose.

Yeshua1 · Jan 8, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑

So we should "delete the bible pages" wherever we find satan "blinding the eyes" of the lost or the lost having their "hearts hardened" since all of that shows "activity" that is "worsening" when in fact they supposedly start off at the worst point - dead and unable to choose.
Click to expand...

No, we should rather just keep speaking/teaching/preaching Jesus ., and the Holy Spirit will do His part, for as Satan blinds the lost still further, HE opens up the eyes of the elect in Christ!

BobRyan · Jan 8, 2018

Yeshua1 said: ↑

We are before salvation spiritual corpses, so go into a cementary and preach all night, any takers?
Click to expand...

So we should "delete the bible pages" wherever we find satan "blinding the eyes" of the lost or the lost having their "hearts hardened" since all of that shows "activity" that is "worsening" when in fact they supposedly start off at the worst point - dead and unable to choose.

Yeshua1 said: ↑

No, we should rather just keep speaking/teaching/preaching Jesus ., and the Holy Spirit will do His part,
Click to expand...

Agreed - the Bible works perfectly - it is OSAS that does not fit it.

Yeshua1 said: ↑

for as Satan blinds the lost still further,
Click to expand...

Then even you admit there is activity among the lost hardening hearts or softening them... blinding them more or opening the eyes.

And that brings us back to what the Holy Spirit says in these examples --

BobRyan said: ↑

Which brings them to salvation -- having experienced "full forgiveness of sins"
Click to expand...

But then... "they live another day" - in that day Romans 2:4-16 applies
And in that day Matthew 18:32-35 applies
And in that day 1 Cor 9 applies

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached (the gospel) to others, I myself should be a castaway.

John 15 "Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is cast away... burned in the fire"

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified (from it).

Paul seeks to "attain" to the resurrection of the dead at the first resurrection

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Yeshua1 · Jan 8, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑

So we should "delete the bible pages" wherever we find satan "blinding the eyes" of the lost or the lost having their "hearts hardened" since all of that shows "activity" that is "worsening" when in fact they supposedly start off at the worst point - dead and unable to choose.

Agreed - the Bible works perfectly - it is OSAS that does not fit it.

Then even you admit there is activity among the lost hardening hearts or softening them... blinding them more or opening the eyes.
Click to expand...

The elect have the Holy Spirit working on and in them, while the rest have Satan active on them.

steaver · Jan 8, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑

Free will - in both cases is required. It is not the "blood of Christ" that changes ... but the free will choice of the man.
Click to expand...

If not for the uniquiness of the rebirth you would have a point. With out being born of God all free choice is... is just another choice of religion. To believe you can lose your salvation would be to not understand the rebirth, the new creation, becoming one with Jesus Christ, personally knowing Christ is in you, unless one believes the saved breaking a commandment cancels out one's salvation, which of course is not biblical but we both know this.

BobRyan · Jan 8, 2018

steaver said: ↑
That certainly would be a piece of cake. Anyone who says they love God and hates his neighbor is a liar if he says he is saved (Apostle John)

David, a man after God's own heart, found his good deeds and commandment keeping could not justify himself before God, he needed the blood of Jesus Christ whom He looked forward to, his Savior. what sayeth the scripture?

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." (Ps 51:10)

"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" (Proverbs 20:9)

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

There goes your commandment keeping salvation right out the door! You do believe what Apostle Paul had to say don't you? ...ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."
Click to expand...

Which brings them to salvation -- having experienced "full forgiveness of sins"

But then... "they live another day" - in that day Romans 2:4-16 applies
And in that day Matthew 18:32-35 applies
And in that day 1 Cor 9 applies

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached (the gospel) to others, I myself should be a castaway.

John 15 "Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit is cast away... burned in the fire"

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified (from it).

Paul seeks to "attain" to the resurrection of the dead at the first resurrection

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

1. How is it that a person can accept the Gospel offered through the blood of Christ? -
2. How is it that a person can lose salvation as in the Matthew 18 example of "forgiveness revoked"

Free will - in both cases is required. It is not the "blood of Christ" that changes ... but the free will choice of the man.

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His own received Him not" -- why is that? Is it "deficient blood of Christ"?? or is it the free will choice of "His OWN" in that case?

You and I and Utilyan all know that It is the free will choice.

steaver said: ↑

If not for the uniquiness of the rebirth you would have a point. With out being born of God all free choice is... is just another choice of religion.
Click to expand...

In John 1:11 'they had another choice" because it is in the context of the supernatural work of Christ to draw them... they still chose no.

In the case of 1 Cor 9 already born again yet still concerned that he may be castaway from the Gospel.
In Romans 11 - born again - "you stand only by your faith" -- but "should fear" and perservere 'or else"

Phil 3 - born again already - yet still striving to "attain to the resurrection of the dead"

Matthew 18 - only the born-again are "fully forgiven" yet they are being warned about "forgiveness revoked"

Ezek 18 -- only the born-again are "righteous" - yet they are being warned about salvation revoked.

To believe you can lose your salvation would be to not understand the rebirth, the new creation, becoming one with Jesus
Click to expand...

Your argument is "with the text"

BobRyan said: ↑

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Click to expand...

The problem OSAS has with the Bible is that it turns Bible warnings "into nonsense" as if God had written a bunch of warning so we would beware of "turning into eagles after you eat breakfast" -- warning of scenarios that can not possibly happen and yet spending all that Bible-resource to warn us against the odd and impossible.

steaver · Jan 8, 2018

utilyan said: ↑

This is the easiest challenge of all.

Show me that saved fella who hates God and hates his neighbors. Give me a name.

Then you can name one fella who loves God and loves neighbor and is damned.

Piece of Cake.
Click to expand...

Wasn't trying to confuse you. Let me try again to answer more clearly.

To the first, no such fella exist.

To the latter, no such fella exist. Only those who love Jesus Christ and believe He is the Son of God will be saved. Fellas can say they love God, even do many wonderful things, yet without knowing Jesus Christ as Lord they shall be damned.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7)

No Jesus Christ in you, all those wonderful works are as filthy rags.

steaver · Jan 8, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑

The problem OSAS has with the Bible is that it turns Bible warnings "into nonsense" as if God had written a bunch of warning so we would beware of "turning into eagles after you eat breakfast" -- warning of scenarios that can not possibly happen and yet spending all that Bible-resource to warn us against the odd and impossible.
Click to expand...

All the warnings are for our assurance. They are to warn the hearer to not be playing church. They are to warn the true believer there will be false believers among you.

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

BobRyan · Jan 8, 2018

steaver said: ↑

All the warnings are for our assurance. They are to warn the hearer to not be playing church. They are to warn the true believer there will be false believers among you.

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
Click to expand...

If that is the case then the warning to the fake non-saved is "Do NOT persevere in your present course"

But notice Romans 11 for example - it is "you must persevere in your present course... or else"

This is irrefutable -- it is "in the text"

Hebrews 6 is a great example of condemnation for "NOT persevering on course".

None of the "failure to persevere on course" warnings "can exist" if the ONLY possible scenario was "you are not on course - get on course! do not persevere in your present course"

utilyan · Jan 8, 2018

steaver said: ↑

Wasn't trying to confuse you. Let me try again to answer more clearly.

To the first, no such fella exist.

To the latter, no such fella exist. Only those who love Jesus Christ and believe He is the Son of God will be saved. Fellas can say they love God, even do many wonderful things, yet without knowing Jesus Christ as Lord they shall be damned.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7)

No Jesus Christ in you, all those wonderful works are as filthy rags.
Click to expand...

Your bible verse is like shooting yourself in the foot.

Works iniquity describes you precisely. Look the word up.

Love God and Neighbor remains priority that can't work inequity.

Faking good works is evil. call it as we see it. Evil is evil and good is good.

The good work of loving God and neighbor is required.

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

utilyan Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

utilyan Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

utilyan Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Useful Searches

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member Site Supporter

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

utilyan Well-Known Member Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

utilyan Well-Known Member Site Supporter

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

steaver Well-Known Member Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member Site Supporter

BobRyan Well-Known Member

utilyan Well-Known Member Site Supporter

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

utilyan Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

utilyan Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

steaver Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

utilyan Well-Known Member
Site Supporter