SDA and the heresy on hell

Destruction just does not support what the Sda says that it does!

 

They misunderstanding the meaning of being destroyed, and also misunderstand sleep as a metaphor for physical death, and so are back again to accepting Ellen White over the scriptures!

 

His point was Sodom was destroyed (and it is the peopple of Sodom in view, God did not take vengeance on a piece of land or city structures) and did not pass out of existence.

Again, the point being they were destroyed and did not pass out of existence kept in mind, let me also mention another point we can find in regards to Sodom (that is relevant to this discussion):



Matthew 11:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.


Scripture presents a variance in degree of punishment for those who reject God's will. We see that here, where in a context indisputably regarding Eternal Judgment, we see that Sodom will fare better than those who reject Christ.

We see that here as well...


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


In view here is not Christians sinning after being saved, in view are those who reject God's will. Those who rejected the Covenant of Law are contrasted with those who reject Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Ministry of the Comforter.

The question I pose to you is this: how, if everyone is simply destroyed...can there be varying degrees of punishment?

God bless.

 

the second death in revelation is not end of existing, its an eternal state apart from God!

 

Once again...

...you impose an eternal context into one that is physical.

Did you read the verse before you posted it, lol?

Look at it again, with a little different emphasis:


18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”

The cessation here is from among the living.

And just because we can apply this to refer to Satan doesn't mean that changes what is very evident as a reference to a man who is physically destroyed from the earth, never to be seen on earth again.


God bless.

 

I would not be dogmatic on this, so understand I am venturing the view I lean to, but, I think it is very likely we can say that the "Tree of Life" did not provide eternal life to Adam and Eve. Not in an eternal context.

It will not provide eternal life in the Eternal State (Revelation 21 and 22), because it is Christ that bestows eternal life through our union with Him. Hence, no need to impose obtaining eternal life in either case.

What Adam and Eve lost, in my view, was the source of extended physical life only. They became separated from God through their sin, thus plunging man into separation from God, which is man's primary problem.

Correct, they do not have the life Christ came to bestow upon men.

Which again, points to the Source of Life, which is not found in a Tree.


God bless.

 

By what do you conclude the Tree of Life granted eternal life?

Men do not "die" the first death, they are born dead, because they are separated from God.

The Second Death is the Resurrection unto Damnation, contrasted with the First Resurrection, which the Resurrection unto Life.

And just as in the first death, there is no cessation of existence, but the opposite, an everlasting state of separation from God.

1 Timothy 6:14-16
King James Version (KJV)

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


Actually the reference is to Christ, and in view is the fact that He is the only One glorified, lol.

Let's see the other two times this word is used:


1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Just not the case, as already shown, but...


Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


God bless.

 

The length of time for the resurrection state of the saved and lost will be the saved, eternally!

 

I thought that the death and resurrection of Jesus on our behalf gives eternal life, not any tree...

 

In point of fact it is:



Matthew 25:41-46
King James Version (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.




Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


But you are welcome to show me why Scripture does not teach that it will be for ever and ever.

There is more than one Hell taught by Christ and the Apostles?

The same subject is in view when these terms are used.

A couple things that have to be considered is that first, man is conceived and born into a state of death. The reason he is dead is because he does not have the Life Christ came to bestow:


John 6:47-53
King James Version (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


The provision of the Old Testament was physical (manna). That is what Christ contrasts Himself with. He is the bread which, if a man eat (and in view is His death, and belief in that death) he will not, perish, but has everlasting life.

Note that those who ate manna (and this would have included Moses) are said to be dead. The reason is because unless one eat of the True Bread (which came down from Heaven)...they have no life.

Secondly, Those who die in a state of being dead are in fact resurrected. And just as the first physical death, where they go into everlasting punishment and are conscious, even so they are conscious in the Second Death (the resurrection unto damnation).

The difference being, the first time they, being dead spiritually (not having life), die physically and go into punishment (as the rich man of Luke 16 is said to have by Christ) without a body; the second time they are raised in physical forms to endure their punishment:


Revelation 20:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Again, the point is...we do not confuse the "life" or their being raised from the dead with the Resurrection unto Life, or ascribe to them the life those who have been saved have.

That is a primary error made by those who seek to support Annihilation.

Death is a separation. Spiritually, it is separation from God, which is remedied in salvation in Christ where the sinner is reconciled to God and brought into eternal union with God through His indwelling of the believer. Physically it is the separation of the spirit from the body.

And is precisely the concept Christ and several New Testament Writers give.

Actually this first is the product of your personal theology and does not represent the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

Let's look at it again:

And the biggest mistake I see is that you speak of "no life ever again," when the fact is those who die and go into Hades...

...never had life to begin with.

One has to be saved in order to have life in an eternal context.

You are calling Christ's teachings satanic:

He is the One who defines the length of the punishment, which is everlasting, and when He does so, giving graphic examples of an enduring state, it would be good to take heed:

Mark 9:43-44
King James Version (KJV)

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Kind of hard to deny an enduring state when he says they go into Hell into a fire that shall never be quenched and their worm dieth not.


Continued...

 

This next "proof" you offer is pretty amazing.

No, it is a fire of judgment and...God will not be there with them.

They go into eternity in the same state they were in when they were physically alive...separated from God.

That God is the Executor of Judgment doesn't make Him the judgment.

The Place of Judgment is a created realm:


Matthew 25:41
King James Version (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It is figurative speech.

Doesn't mean that unbelievers will be "in God" when they are cast into Hell.

This is a physical destruction of physical flesh.

Still doesn't make God...Hell.

And this...

...does not make God...the eternal and all consuming fire of Love.

You can't even produce a verse that combines the two concepts.

Which of these verses even mentions judgment?

Do you see how you have imposed a false concept which is not even in the texts you produced?


God bless.

 

Bob, you are the only one I have ever seen offer that argument.

Who has denied that Christ is teaching of a future resurrection? Can you quote someone other than yourself doing that?

Secondly, it is you overlooking a primary thrust of the passage, which is Christ dealing with the annihilationists, the Sadducees, who believed that when men died that was it, game over, the end.

That is why they were so sad, you see?

While the Lord makes it clear that God is the God of the living, He does not impose a context of all who had died having eternal life, because that would conflict with His teaching that He came to bring life, and bestow it on those who believed in Him (in His death). What He is combating is the false doctrine held by the Sadducees that the spirits of the dead had ceased to exist.

As a matter of fact "How hot Hell is going to be" is very much part of this debate.

Kind of hard, if all unbelievers are poofed out of existence, for this...


Matthew 10:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


...to make sense.

Do those who rejected God less than those who rejected God more get an option for how they are extinguished? But wait, I shouldn't have said that, because...


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


I completely forgot the Lord taught that the fires of judgment would never be extinguished.

Or maybe I was just being facetious...

And you are doing a great job of it.

Well, maybe an adequate job of it.

Okay, you got me, you're doing a terrible job of showing that the Biblical Doctrine Eternal Judgment is a false doctrine, and that your doctrine of eternal poofing is what men should embrace.

The fact is, your doctrine encourages those who reject Christ, because they hold to the false hope that they will just be snuffed out anyway.

How many people are there, Bob, in the world and wishing they had never been born? Do you really think they care about being saved? Repenting of their sin?

So there are some out there that you can tack "...comfort one another with these words."


God bless.

 

Again, you refuse to acknowledge that "sleep" is a euphemism for death:


1 Kings 2:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.


Acts 2:25-29
King James Version (KJV)

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


David died and went to Sheol/Hades like everyone else.

And Daniel 12 doesn't help you much:


Daniel 12
King James Version (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Do you suppose that the everlasting contempt is held by God or those redeemed?

Shame on you if you do. That stands in direct contrast with the nature of God.


Continued...

 

And you ignore that it is the distinct doctrine of annihilation the Lord is addressing.

The box they were in was that men did not cease to exist after physical death.

That there would be a resurrection of the dead was generally held by most, because it is a Basic Principle of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Because the Rapture was yet a Mystery, lol.

No-one was in Christ at that point.

That is evident here:


John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Continued...

 

Kind of destroys your doctrine that Moses went into Heaven alive, doesn't it?

Christ points to...a future Age.

Honestly, Bob.

The point is that Abraham has not ceased to exist. That is what the Sadducees believed. They believed this because they denied the resurrection of the dead, even though Scripture taught it.

Who?

Please quote someone denying this.

Why not, they were dead while alive.

Dead because they did not have the life of Christ.

So the nature of their being "alive" must fit within the revelation and provision men had at that time. We do not say Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive in the sense of eternal life, but that they were alive in the sense of their existence, into which they were born. They were body and spirit, and though the body was dead, the spirit was "alive." Again, not because they had eternal life through Christ, but because they were spirits, and there is no Scripture that teaches spirits cease to exist.

But He didn't say a future resurrection was the only way it could be true, lol. You did.


God bless.

 

In splendor, just as the splendor of Solomon was surpassed by physical flowers.

Not glorified in a resurrected context.

Of course he did.

Just because he was caught up into the sky doesn't mean he was raptured, lol.

Christ states Moses was still dead:


John 6:49
King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.


And we know Moses is included because...


John 6:31-33
King James Version (KJV)

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Simply a false teaching:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

Moses and Elijah were spirits, which is the state of man when he is separated from his physical body. A far cry from being perfectly whole.


Luke 24:36-39
King James Version (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


They were as of yet unbelieving in His Resurrection, and supposed He was still dead, therefore seeing Him they assumed they were seeing His spirit. Not The Spirit, but His spirit, because they were as of yet unbelieving.


God bless.

 

I just have to ask: if a Baptist says "There are a modest number of us (Baptists) who recognize that the Bible teaches Satan is highly misunderstood and isn't as bad as most make him out to be..."

..would we call them Baptists as well?

Just out of curiosity, what kind of Baptist are you? What is the name of the fellowship you attend?


God bless.

 

Well, for some of us there is a concern for those who are lost, as well as those who have fallen into false doctrines.

There is also a concern for those who have not yet learned very good manners.

Just because you express an attitude that you could care less whether they go to Hell or not doesn't mean we all have to be like that.

And how is this different from liberal "Christians" who attend Protestant and Evangelical churches who also endorse women's rights?

Maybe, Walter, if you spent some time discussing how one is saved instead of addressing their politics...you might be able to convince them of the sanctity of life.

Which you yourself seem to be lacking in. Care for the sanctity of life. And if you are charging them with not having a concern for physical life, yet you have no concern for their spiritual life, and their eternal destiny...

...who is worse?

Yeah, he gets his jollies in some strange ways, but then...he's not the only one.

Don't worry about Bob, I'll be glad to point out this fact.

Why don't you run off to the Politics Board where you can find something not discussing Scripture.

As a matter of fact that is not really relevant to this thread.

Did you bother to read the OP?

And...?

And...?

Only to someone who is ignorant of what is being discussed would that seem to be the case.

The issue of Eternal Judgment is one of the big ones, Walter.

Understanding that Doctrine would help you more than having a full knowledge of the statements of SDAs.

Now run along to the Politics board and feed that hatred in you. Thee are more important things being discussed here.


God bless.

 

The "Eternal State" is usually referencing the new heavens and Earth created by God after this current universe passes away.

It is not relevant to the disposition of unbelievers.

But, what is different between eternal life through Christ and an everlasting state of unbelievers is that, just as was the cas when they were physically alive, even so in death (both in Hades and in Hell)...

...unbelievers do not have the Life of Christ.

Because they were never indwelt by God on an eternal basis, which is the basis for believers having eternal life. We are immersed into God, Who is Eternal Life.

Depends on where those individuals are.

In their physical bodies they are dead. This is not relevant to Eternity.

When they die physically they immediately enter into Eternity, and continue to exist, but...

...they do not have life.

On the contrary, Christ spoke numerous times of men not having life, needing life, and unbelievers in Hell when they are judged.

One only obtains life through belief in Christ:


John 6:53
King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Why not? Do not maggots die if there is no source of food for them?

And it is Christ that gives this text an eternal context.

The unquenchable fires of judgment are placed in a context concerning the judgment that will befall unbelievers. The same fate that awaits demons awaits unbelievers, and there is no question that the reason those fires are everlasting is because that which feeds it is everlasting, and we do not confuse this one having eternal life.

And that is the primary basis for the objection to Eternal Judgment, because it is erroneously assumed that if the spirits of the lost were to last forever, they would have everlasting life. The fact is that they never had and never will have the life of God which comes only through Reconciliation with God, and being immersed into God in eternal union.

Can you show me in Scripture where the worm...turns into a fly?

The Lord said "...their worm dieth not." No mention of flies.

Because the source of the fire, that which feeds the fire...never runs out.

Hence:


Revelation 14:9-11
King James Version (KJV)

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Even if you tried to say "only Satan will tormented day and night forever," you still destroy your argument, and you overlook the fact that the Antichrist and the False Prophet have been in Hell for one thousand years...in torment. Unless you want to say "Well the tormenting doesn't begin until Satan gets there."

Annihilation is contrary to Scripture. It is contrary to the teachings of Christ.

And we see you have to add to the Word in order to make your doctrine seem plausible. Show me where the worm turns into flies.


Continued...

 

They were dead when they were physically alive, but still in existence. They were dead when they died physically, but still in existence.

And we are taught that they will forever be in existence in Hell.

And again, I would remind you that Eternal Judgment is described as varying in degree (at least I think it was you, lol, that I spoke to about this):


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The reason, for those who reject Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the Ministry of the Comforter (which is the wilful sin in view), that "there remains no more sacrifice for sin is very simple...

...they have rejected the only Sacrifice that can keep them from judgment and fiery indignation.

Another good point...which detracts from the strength of your argument. Both are equally eternal, everlasting.

You are trying to teach that they are not.

First, is not the very concept of eternal judgment viewed as punishment?

Secondly, we see more than one time where the punishment of the Wicked is described. Its actually a major theme of Scripture. And in regards to Eternal Punishment, it is one of Christ's primary teachings.

Third, consider:


2 Peter 2:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


They are reserved unto judgment...to be punished.

Not snuffed out of existence.

On the contrary, we know nothing of the sort, lol.

Then would He have spoken of the flames which would go out, and where the worm turns into a fly and goes about his business.

I don't think we see a perpetuation of evil by these fellows...


Jude 6
King James Version (KJV)

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Satan won't be perpetuating evil when this happens...


Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So yet again a weak argument shown from Scripture not to be a valid reason to deny Eternal Judgment.

Only those in Hades?

So when the Antichrist and the False Prophet spend a thousand years in Hell...


Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


...they will not experience anything?


God bless.