SDA and the heresy on hell

[Yeshua1]

What you have shown is that it is true, Bob.

That is why you refuse to address a closer look at the word destroy, and acknowledge that it does not always impose cessation of existence. That is also why you interject irrelevant issues into the discussion. That is also why you continue to use physical contexts and impose eternal context into them.

You poor soul!




God bless.

Destruction just does not support what the Sda says that it does!

 

[Yeshua1]

I know, over and over and over...

They have to, because their doctrine limits them to a few select proof texts which they think supports their doctrine. As I said, their conclusions are based on simplistic errors which apparently most will refuse to consider.


And I am out of time, Bob, so I will come back to this and see if you have anything new we haven't already covered in the last couple of threads.

Or if I am just bored.




God bless.

They misunderstanding the meaning of being destroyed, and also misunderstand sleep as a metaphor for physical death, and so are back again to accepting Ellen White over the scriptures!

 

[Darrell C]

Annihilationist teaching generally does not teach total destruction until after the final judgment. So they would be around at the final judgment, and would readily be available for that duty without undermining annihilationist teaching.

His point was Sodom was destroyed (and it is the peopple of Sodom in view, God did not take vengeance on a piece of land or city structures) and did not pass out of existence.

However, your Bible has things in it that mine doesn't seem to have. Do you have a scripture that claims inhabitants of Sodom will have a speaking role in the final judgment? There's scripture very similar to that regarding the men of Nineveh (Matthew 12:41), but I think you are inventing scriptural support for your view.

Again, the point being they were destroyed and did not pass out of existence kept in mind, let me also mention another point we can find in regards to Sodom (that is relevant to this discussion):



Matthew 11:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.


Scripture presents a variance in degree of punishment for those who reject God's will. We see that here, where in a context indisputably regarding Eternal Judgment, we see that Sodom will fare better than those who reject Christ.

We see that here as well...


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


In view here is not Christians sinning after being saved, in view are those who reject God's will. Those who rejected the Covenant of Law are contrasted with those who reject Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Ministry of the Comforter.

The question I pose to you is this: how, if everyone is simply destroyed...can there be varying degrees of punishment?

God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Ezek 18;4 "the soul that sins it shall die"


Not true in Ezek 18 -- since in that chapter the saints never die and all the wicked die

But when it comes to "physical death" in this life BOTH the wicked and the saints die -- as we all know.

the second death in revelation is not end of existing, its an eternal state apart from God!

 

[Darrell C]

18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Once again...

...you impose an eternal context into one that is physical.

Did you read the verse before you posted it, lol?

Look at it again, with a little different emphasis:


18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”

The cessation here is from among the living.

And just because we can apply this to refer to Satan doesn't mean that changes what is very evident as a reference to a man who is physically destroyed from the earth, never to be seen on earth again.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I don't know what SDAs teach about God's intent for humans to have eternal life, but it seems that the story of the tree of life in Genesis 3 was a picture of eternal life provided by God, since Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden so that they would not live forever in their fallen state. When they disobeyed God, they began the process of dying (the Hebrew says something along the lines of "dying you shall die"). In Adam, all of us die. So as children of Adam and Eve, we do not have eternal life in ourselves. But in Christ, we can all live. God will preserve who we are and we will be raised in resurrection bodies (Christ's was the first fruit - the guarantee of what God will do for us) and we will live in our bodies again, have free access to the Tree of Life and living water (Revelation 22:14, 17), and will reign with Christ forever (Revelation 22:5).

I would not be dogmatic on this, so understand I am venturing the view I lean to, but, I think it is very likely we can say that the "Tree of Life" did not provide eternal life to Adam and Eve. Not in an eternal context.

It will not provide eternal life in the Eternal State (Revelation 21 and 22), because it is Christ that bestows eternal life through our union with Him. Hence, no need to impose obtaining eternal life in either case.

What Adam and Eve lost, in my view, was the source of extended physical life only. They became separated from God through their sin, thus plunging man into separation from God, which is man's primary problem.

Children of Adam and Eve who do not also enter into the life of Christ do not possess eternal life, nor live forever in any form.

Correct, they do not have the life Christ came to bestow upon men.

Which again, points to the Source of Life, which is not found in a Tree.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

True - Adam and Eve had access to the Tree of Life and hence to eternal life - but when they chose rebellion they were removed from the tree and God said "lest man eat from the tree of Life and live forever" mankind was kicked out of the Garden and two Angels were stationed there to guard the way against anyone of mankind returning.

By what do you conclude the Tree of Life granted eternal life?

True. Aging and dying. But the "wages of sin is death" Romans 6 and it is more than the "first death" that all - even the righteous die... it is the second death - the lake of fire... fiery hell. And it is the second death from which Christ has saved us.

Men do not "die" the first death, they are born dead, because they are separated from God.

The Second Death is the Resurrection unto Damnation, contrasted with the First Resurrection, which the Resurrection unto Life.

And just as in the first death, there is no cessation of existence, but the opposite, an everlasting state of separation from God.

True - as Paul reminds Timothy in 1 Tim 6 "God alone possess immortality".

1 Timothy 6:14-16
King James Version (KJV)

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


Actually the reference is to Christ, and in view is the fact that He is the only One glorified, lol.

Let's see the other two times this word is used:


1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Even Satan will be "reduced to ashes" and "will cease to be forever" Ezek 28

Just not the case, as already shown, but...


Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

By what do you conclude the Tree of Life granted eternal life?




Men do not "die" the first death, they are born dead, because they are separated from God.

The Second Death is the Resurrection unto Damnation, contrasted with the First Resurrection, which the Resurrection unto Life.

And just as in the first death, there is no cessation of existence, but the opposite, an everlasting state of separation from God.





1 Timothy 6:14-16
King James Version (KJV)

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


Actually the reference is to Christ, and in view is the fact that He is the only One glorified, lol.

Let's see the other two times this word is used:


1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.




Just not the case, as already shown, but...


Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


God bless.

The length of time for the resurrection state of the saved and lost will be the saved, eternally!

 

[Yeshua1]

By what do you conclude the Tree of Life granted eternal life?




Men do not "die" the first death, they are born dead, because they are separated from God.

The Second Death is the Resurrection unto Damnation, contrasted with the First Resurrection, which the Resurrection unto Life.

And just as in the first death, there is no cessation of existence, but the opposite, an everlasting state of separation from God.





1 Timothy 6:14-16
King James Version (KJV)

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


Actually the reference is to Christ, and in view is the fact that He is the only One glorified, lol.

Let's see the other two times this word is used:


1 Corinthians 15:53-54
King James Version (KJV)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.




Just not the case, as already shown, but...


Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


God bless.

I thought that the death and resurrection of Jesus on our behalf gives eternal life, not any tree...

 

[Darrell C]

Everlasting punishment, is not everlasting punishing.

In point of fact it is:



Matthew 25:41-46
King James Version (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.




Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


But you are welcome to show me why Scripture does not teach that it will be for ever and ever.

These two phrases are not synonymous.

There is more than one Hell taught by Christ and the Apostles?

The same subject is in view when these terms are used.

The first is a single event [punishment] that has eternal results - ie, death from which there is no resurrection, no life ever again, 2nd death, the wages of sin.

A couple things that have to be considered is that first, man is conceived and born into a state of death. The reason he is dead is because he does not have the Life Christ came to bestow:


John 6:47-53
King James Version (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


The provision of the Old Testament was physical (manna). That is what Christ contrasts Himself with. He is the bread which, if a man eat (and in view is His death, and belief in that death) he will not, perish, but has everlasting life.

Note that those who ate manna (and this would have included Moses) are said to be dead. The reason is because unless one eat of the True Bread (which came down from Heaven)...they have no life.

The first is a single event [punishment] that has eternal results - ie, death from which there is no resurrection, no life ever again, 2nd death, the wages of sin.

Secondly, Those who die in a state of being dead are in fact resurrected. And just as the first physical death, where they go into everlasting punishment and are conscious, even so they are conscious in the Second Death (the resurrection unto damnation).

The difference being, the first time they, being dead spiritually (not having life), die physically and go into punishment (as the rich man of Luke 16 is said to have by Christ) without a body; the second time they are raised in physical forms to endure their punishment:


Revelation 20:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Again, the point is...we do not confuse the "life" or their being raised from the dead with the Resurrection unto Life, or ascribe to them the life those who have been saved have.

That is a primary error made by those who seek to support Annihilation.

Death is a separation. Spiritually, it is separation from God, which is remedied in salvation in Christ where the sinner is reconciled to God and brought into eternal union with God through His indwelling of the believer. Physically it is the separation of the spirit from the body.

The second is an ongoing, never-ending process, wherein there is never an actual 2nd death, but sustained immortal sinners in torments.

And is precisely the concept Christ and several New Testament Writers give.

The first is just and rightfully belongs to God the Judge,.

Actually this first is the product of your personal theology and does not represent the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

Let's look at it again:

The first is a single event [punishment] that has eternal results - ie, death from which there is no resurrection, no life ever again, 2nd death, the wages of sin.

And the biggest mistake I see is that you speak of "no life ever again," when the fact is those who die and go into Hades...

...never had life to begin with.

One has to be saved in order to have life in an eternal context.

while the second is the product and ideology of a warped mind and depraved character, namely that of satan.

You are calling Christ's teachings satanic:

He is the One who defines the length of the punishment, which is everlasting, and when He does so, giving graphic examples of an enduring state, it would be good to take heed:

Mark 9:43-44
King James Version (KJV)

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Kind of hard to deny an enduring state when he says they go into Hell into a fire that shall never be quenched and their worm dieth not.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

This next "proof" you offer is pretty amazing.

The everlasting / eternal fire is actually a reference to JEHOVAH God and God's just vengeance, for it is written:

No, it is a fire of judgment and...God will not be there with them.

They go into eternity in the same state they were in when they were physically alive...separated from God.

Deuteronomy 32:35 KJB - To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Deuteronomy 32:41 KJB - If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

Psalms 94:1 KJB - O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself.

Romans 12:19 KJB - Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
etc.

That God is the Executor of Judgment doesn't make Him the judgment.

The Place of Judgment is a created realm:


Matthew 25:41
King James Version (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Deuteronomy 4:24 KJB - For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 9:3 KJB - Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Deuteronomy 12:29 KJB - For our God is a consuming fire.

It is figurative speech.

Doesn't mean that unbelievers will be "in God" when they are cast into Hell.

Therefore, read Jude 1:7, etc, in this light, since it was JEHOVAH Emmanuel that came down to destroy it, see Genesis 17-19 KJB. It is saying that those cities were literally destroyed, permanently by JEHOVAH, the eternal and all consuming fire of Love:

This is a physical destruction of physical flesh.

Still doesn't make God...Hell.

And this...

1 John 4:8 KJB - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16 KJB - And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Song of Solomon 8:7 KJB - Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.

...does not make God...the eternal and all consuming fire of Love.

You can't even produce a verse that combines the two concepts.

Which of these verses even mentions judgment?

Do you see how you have imposed a false concept which is not even in the texts you produced?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

First of all that Matthew 22 discussion was what Christ claimed as bullet-proof iron-clad argument in favor of ... not the living dead... but the future resurrection. Christ argued two points that the Sadducees could not deny.
1. God is not the God of the Dead.
2. God said He was the "God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" when talking to Moses centuries later at the burning bush.

Christ said the only way both those statements can be true - is if there is a future resurrection and it is such a compelling point that the text says the Sadducees were silenced. Had no come-back... no retort.

Yet many people today by glossing over every detail in the text will argue that Christ utterly failed to prove His future resurrection point and instead chose to totally undermine it by arguing that Moses was alive while God was talking to Moses as "the living dead". Which is something the Sadducees were not about to accept "in silence" and is something that would have totally destroyed his argument for future resurrection with a group like the Sadducees.

The only way Matt 22 works as "proof of future resurrection" is to be just as hard and fast on the dormant state of man "God is not the God of the dead" as the Sadducees.. and then Christ's argument becomes irrefutable logic in favor of the future resurrection which is what Christ claimed it was when He said "but regarding the resurrection have you not read that.."

The temptation to completely ignore Christ's statement that it is a proof of the future resurrection and instead to hijack it as proof of the "living dead who need no resurrection to be the children of God while dead" -- is strong.

Bob, you are the only one I have ever seen offer that argument.

Who has denied that Christ is teaching of a future resurrection? Can you quote someone other than yourself doing that?

Secondly, it is you overlooking a primary thrust of the passage, which is Christ dealing with the annihilationists, the Sadducees, who believed that when men died that was it, game over, the end.

That is why they were so sad, you see?

While the Lord makes it clear that God is the God of the living, He does not impose a context of all who had died having eternal life, because that would conflict with His teaching that He came to bring life, and bestow it on those who believed in Him (in His death). What He is combating is the false doctrine held by the Sadducees that the spirits of the dead had ceased to exist.

This is not a debate on "how hot" is hell. It is about "how long do the wicked remain unpunished to the full amount owed".

The Bible says they fully pay.

The immortal worm/immortal soul/immortal hell group claims that never in all of eternity do they actually pay the debt owed.

As a matter of fact "How hot Hell is going to be" is very much part of this debate.

Kind of hard, if all unbelievers are poofed out of existence, for this...


Matthew 10:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


...to make sense.

Do those who rejected God less than those who rejected God more get an option for how they are extinguished? But wait, I shouldn't have said that, because...


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


I completely forgot the Lord taught that the fires of judgment would never be extinguished.

Or maybe I was just being facetious...

eternal life in hell is the false doctrine that is being opposed here.. not "how hot is hell"

And you are doing a great job of it.

Well, maybe an adequate job of it.

Okay, you got me, you're doing a terrible job of showing that the Biblical Doctrine Eternal Judgment is a false doctrine, and that your doctrine of eternal poofing is what men should embrace.

The fact is, your doctrine encourages those who reject Christ, because they hold to the false hope that they will just be snuffed out anyway.

How many people are there, Bob, in the world and wishing they had never been born? Do you really think they care about being saved? Repenting of their sin?

So there are some out there that you can tack "...comfort one another with these words."


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Ok then we have Daniel 12, John 11 and 1Thess 4 (and 1Cor 15) all teaching that the state of the first death is sleep... a dormant state.

This means that we need to look "very carefully" at any text that we think might be teaching "awake while asleep" or something of that nature.

Again, you refuse to acknowledge that "sleep" is a euphemism for death:


1 Kings 2:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.


Acts 2:25-29
King James Version (KJV)

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


David died and went to Sheol/Hades like everyone else.

And Daniel 12 doesn't help you much:


Daniel 12
King James Version (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Do you suppose that the everlasting contempt is held by God or those redeemed?

Shame on you if you do. That stands in direct contrast with the nature of God.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus declared this in the debate about future resurretion -
Matt 22
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together

How did Jesus prove His doctrine on future resurrection in that example??

Answer: He put the Sadducees into a box where the ONLY SOLUTION - is the future resurrection.

And you ignore that it is the distinct doctrine of annihilation the Lord is addressing.

The box they were in was that men did not cease to exist after physical death.

That there would be a resurrection of the dead was generally held by most, because it is a Basic Principle of the Hebrew Scriptures.

31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead,-- He starts with "God is not the God of the DEAD" when proving his doctrine on the "resurrection of the DEAD". He does not call them "the resurrection of the ALIVE in Christ while dead"

Because the Rapture was yet a Mystery, lol.

No-one was in Christ at that point.

That is evident here:


John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Luke 20
34 Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.”

Kind of destroys your doctrine that Moses went into Heaven alive, doesn't it?

Christ points to...a future Age.

But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed... Christ states that the subject is about the future resurrection of the DEAD - and the proof given argues that only because of the future resurrection can God say to Moses while Abraham is dead - "I am the God of Abraham".

Honestly, Bob.

The point is that Abraham has not ceased to exist. That is what the Sadducees believed. They believed this because they denied the resurrection of the dead, even though Scripture taught it.

This is the very point of the iron clad argument Christ makes -- and the very point many Christians would flat out deny.

Who?

Please quote someone denying this.

But the Sadducees were not about to leap off the cliff of "must be alive while dead" so they took this as irrefutable proof of future resurrection... unlike the popular views today.

Why not, they were dead while alive.

Dead because they did not have the life of Christ.

So the nature of their being "alive" must fit within the revelation and provision men had at that time. We do not say Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive in the sense of eternal life, but that they were alive in the sense of their existence, into which they were born. They were body and spirit, and though the body was dead, the spirit was "alive." Again, not because they had eternal life through Christ, but because they were spirits, and there is no Scripture that teaches spirits cease to exist.

If one claims that the dead are dormant, you undermine everything that Jesus has said about the subject.

On the contrary - if you take that view then Jesus' own claim that the future resurrection is the only way those statements can all be true -- WORKS!

But He didn't say a future resurrection was the only way it could be true, lol. You did.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Matt 17 Elijah and Moses stand in glory and appear with the sinless Christ --

In splendor, just as the splendor of Solomon was surpassed by physical flowers.

Not glorified in a resurrected context.

Elijah having never died.

Of course he did.

Just because he was caught up into the sky doesn't mean he was raptured, lol.

Moses having died but as Jude 9 quotes the book 'the Assumption of Moses" -- was resurrected.

Christ states Moses was still dead:


John 6:49
King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.


And we know Moses is included because...


John 6:31-33
King James Version (KJV)

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

The three of them stand in glory in the mount of transfiguration perfectly whole and glorified.

Simply a false teaching:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

The three of them stand in glory in the mount of transfiguration perfectly whole and glorified.

Moses and Elijah were spirits, which is the state of man when he is separated from his physical body. A far cry from being perfectly whole.


Luke 24:36-39
King James Version (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


They were as of yet unbelieving in His Resurrection, and supposed He was still dead, therefore seeing Him they assumed they were seeing His spirit. Not The Spirit, but His spirit, because they were as of yet unbelieving.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

FWIW, I am a Baptist. There are a modest number of us who recognize that the Bible teaches conditional mortality (aka annihilationism).

I just have to ask: if a Baptist says "There are a modest number of us (Baptists) who recognize that the Bible teaches Satan is highly misunderstood and isn't as bad as most make him out to be..."

..would we call them Baptists as well?

Just out of curiosity, what kind of Baptist are you? What is the name of the fellowship you attend?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Why debate this? Who cares what heretical views the SDA embraces?

Well, for some of us there is a concern for those who are lost, as well as those who have fallen into false doctrines.

There is also a concern for those who have not yet learned very good manners.

Just because you express an attitude that you could care less whether they go to Hell or not doesn't mean we all have to be like that.

Their pro-abortion position clearly stated on their official website and the daily practice of hacking apart babies in the womb in their Adventist hospitals should be more than enough to immediately sicken and turn away bible believing Christians from this cult. S

And how is this different from liberal "Christians" who attend Protestant and Evangelical churches who also endorse women's rights?

Maybe, Walter, if you spent some time discussing how one is saved instead of addressing their politics...you might be able to convince them of the sanctity of life.

Which you yourself seem to be lacking in. Care for the sanctity of life. And if you are charging them with not having a concern for physical life, yet you have no concern for their spiritual life, and their eternal destiny...

...who is worse?

Satan bellows in delight with each and every abortion performed in/by Adventist doctors in Adventists hospitals.

Yeah, he gets his jollies in some strange ways, but then...he's not the only one.

I'm sure I will be accused by Bob of trying to derail the thread by bringing up his churches position on abortion.

Don't worry about Bob, I'll be glad to point out this fact.

Why don't you run off to the Politics Board where you can find something not discussing Scripture.

However, he would like nothing better than to distract you from the official leaderships decisions to support something that bible believing Christians know is a 'stench in the nostrils of the Lord'.

As a matter of fact that is not really relevant to this thread.

Did you bother to read the OP?

You can have an elective abortion performed at his Adventists hospitals but you cannot order a ham sandwich in that same hospitals cafeteria.

And...?

You will notice that the other SDA posters (exception being Bob) on the BB took off like flies when they were called out on their churches pro-choice statements on the SDA website.

And...?

This thread 'strains gnats and swallows camels'.

Only to someone who is ignorant of what is being discussed would that seem to be the case.

The issue of Eternal Judgment is one of the big ones, Walter.

Understanding that Doctrine would help you more than having a full knowledge of the statements of SDAs.

Now run along to the Politics board and feed that hatred in you. Thee are more important things being discussed here.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

What is the difference between an "eternal state" and the eternal life that Jesus offers?

The "Eternal State" is usually referencing the new heavens and Earth created by God after this current universe passes away.

It is not relevant to the disposition of unbelievers.

But, what is different between eternal life through Christ and an everlasting state of unbelievers is that, just as was the cas when they were physically alive, even so in death (both in Hades and in Hell)...

...unbelievers do not have the Life of Christ.

Because they were never indwelt by God on an eternal basis, which is the basis for believers having eternal life. We are immersed into God, Who is Eternal Life.

It seems to me that being physically death and spiritually dead is an "eternal state."

Depends on where those individuals are.

In their physical bodies they are dead. This is not relevant to Eternity.

When they die physically they immediately enter into Eternity, and continue to exist, but...

...they do not have life.

Those in hell will have immortality, but not eternal life...

You are claiming something that Jesus did not.

On the contrary, Christ spoke numerous times of men not having life, needing life, and unbelievers in Hell when they are judged.

One only obtains life through belief in Christ:


John 6:53
King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

He taught that the chaff will be burnt up and quoted Isaiah 66 as a vision of the aftermath of the final judgment where the "dead bodies" of those who have rebelled against God will be seen in dishonor, where the maggots won't die

Why not? Do not maggots die if there is no source of food for them?

And it is Christ that gives this text an eternal context.

The unquenchable fires of judgment are placed in a context concerning the judgment that will befall unbelievers. The same fate that awaits demons awaits unbelievers, and there is no question that the reason those fires are everlasting is because that which feeds it is everlasting, and we do not confuse this one having eternal life.

And that is the primary basis for the objection to Eternal Judgment, because it is erroneously assumed that if the spirits of the lost were to last forever, they would have everlasting life. The fact is that they never had and never will have the life of God which comes only through Reconciliation with God, and being immersed into God in eternal union.

where the maggots won't die (they will eventually turn into flies)

Can you show me in Scripture where the worm...turns into a fly?

The Lord said "...their worm dieth not." No mention of flies.

and "the fire will not be quenched."

Because the source of the fire, that which feeds the fire...never runs out.

Hence:


Revelation 14:9-11
King James Version (KJV)

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Even if you tried to say "only Satan will tormented day and night forever," you still destroy your argument, and you overlook the fact that the Antichrist and the False Prophet have been in Hell for one thousand years...in torment. Unless you want to say "Well the tormenting doesn't begin until Satan gets there."

Annihilation is contrary to Scripture. It is contrary to the teachings of Christ.

And we see you have to add to the Word in order to make your doctrine seem plausible. Show me where the worm turns into flies.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

These persons are dead, not being tormented.

They were dead when they were physically alive, but still in existence. They were dead when they died physically, but still in existence.

And we are taught that they will forever be in existence in Hell.

And again, I would remind you that Eternal Judgment is described as varying in degree (at least I think it was you, lol, that I spoke to about this):


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The reason, for those who reject Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the Ministry of the Comforter (which is the wilful sin in view), that "there remains no more sacrifice for sin is very simple...

...they have rejected the only Sacrifice that can keep them from judgment and fiery indignation.

Jesus almost ALWAYS contrasted eternal life with perishing, death or destruction.

Another good point...which detracts from the strength of your argument. Both are equally eternal, everlasting.

You are trying to teach that they are not.

In one place, He refers to it as punishment.

First, is not the very concept of eternal judgment viewed as punishment?

Secondly, we see more than one time where the punishment of the Wicked is described. Its actually a major theme of Scripture. And in regards to Eternal Punishment, it is one of Christ's primary teachings.

Third, consider:


2 Peter 2:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


They are reserved unto judgment...to be punished.

Not snuffed out of existence.

From the context of the rest of His teaching, we know that He means what we call "capital punishment."

On the contrary, we know nothing of the sort, lol.

Then would He have spoken of the flames which would go out, and where the worm turns into a fly and goes about his business.

If God makes evil immortal, He is not destroying evil but perpetuating it.

I don't think we see a perpetuation of evil by these fellows...


Jude 6
King James Version (KJV)

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Satan won't be perpetuating evil when this happens...


Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So yet again a weak argument shown from Scripture not to be a valid reason to deny Eternal Judgment.

Those who are consumed in hell will not experience anything.

Only those in Hades?

So when the Antichrist and the False Prophet spend a thousand years in Hell...


Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


...they will not experience anything?


God bless.