SDA and the heresy on hell

Only in your extreme inference version

Not true at all - 2 Kings 2 is explicit that Elijah (like Enoch was translated).

Less making stuff up ... more Bible.

and Jude 9 references "The Assumption of Moses" as even Robertson's Word Pictures of the NT admits.

And there is no such thing as a "disembodied spirit" except in seance "stories".

They thought Peter was a ghost when he was freed from Jail.
They thought Christ was a ghost when He walked on the water.
They thought Christ was a ghost while bodily resurrected.

They were wrong. Superstitious and wrong.

 

Matt 17 Elijah and Moses stand in glory and appear with the sinless Christ --

Elijah having never died.
Moses having died but as Jude 9 quotes the book 'the Assumption of Moses" -- was resurrected.

The three of them stand in glory in the mount of transfiguration perfectly whole and glorified.

Matt 17
2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

Luke 9
29 And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. 30 And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. 33 And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.


What need would Moses have of a future resurrection if in fact he is perfectly the same in form as the never-dead-but-translated Elijah?

Yet the NT authors argue that we are to "fix our hope" entirely on the future resurrection in 1Thess 4, in 1Cor 15 and in 1 Peter 1:13

 

You are still quoting yourself

 

. Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

Ezek 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"

Until you read the actual Bible.

Ezek 28 - reduced to ashes

Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Matthew 10:28 "DETROY both body and soul in fiery hell" as compared to those who merely "kill the body but unable to kill the soul".

DESTROYED Sodom and Gomorrah -- Luke 17:29 in fire and brimstone.
Destroyed by "reducing them to ashes" - 2 Peter 2:6 ... that city is gone.. buildings wiped out.

Annihilation - reduced to ashes as the text says -- would include cessation from among the living.

In any case your argument needs to ignore almost every contrary detail in the text you quote - that is contrary to your argument.

 

It says nothing of the sort:

2 Kings 2
King James Version (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.


9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


First, we know men did not go into Heaven prior to the Cross;

Second, "heaven" usually refers to the Sky in 2 Kings, and I might go so far as to say all do, with perhaps "the host of heaven" which is a reference to Angels. When it refers to demons, we know the sky is in view;

Third, there is no word that can be construed "translated," which shows your teaching is in error, is that intentional?

Fourth, we see Elijah write a letter to Jehoram after this event:


2 Chronicles 21
King James Version (KJV)

21 Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.


9 Then Jehoram went forth with his princes, and all his chariots with him: and he rose up by night, and smote the Edomites which compassed him in, and the captains of the chariots.

10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.

12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,


Jehoshaphat Is dead when this letter comes, which places it after Elijah is taken away. So we cannot say the letter came during the co-reign of Jehoshaphat and Jehoram.

You mean like ascribing glorification to the Lord when Scripture makes it clear that the Lord was not glorified until after the Resurrection?

Like inserting a "translation" into 2 Kings?

Like saying the devil will be burned up into ashes?

Like referring to extrabiblical material and ascribing it with authority?

Like denying "disembodied spirits," when there are numerous references to them in Scripture?

Like denying Christ is the First to rise from the dead?

Like ascribing glorification to two dead guys before the Lord has been glorified?


I agree...

Continued...

 

And...?

It doesn't change the fact that in view is Moses' body, not his spirit.

Moses would have to be alive for it to refer to him as a "soul." WHen the spirit leaves the body, we can call the spirit the soul, because that is the person. Not so with the body, that is simply a carcass.

Already answered.

Do you think repetition will somehow give credence to what you say?


1 Samuel 28:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.


Samuel is called up.

We see the dead in Heaven:



Revelation 6:9-11
King James Version (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


We see...


1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version (KJV)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Kind of hard to preach to those who are...dormant.

We see the spirits of the Old Testament Saints distinguished from the Church, and...


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


...there is no question they are disembodied spirits, because the Rapture has not yet occurred.

So...

Continued...

 

Which shows they believed man to be spirit and body, and when one was dead, the spirit left the body and could be seen.

Which shows they believed man to be spirit and body, and when one was dead, the spirit left the body and could be seen.

It is your opinion they were wrong, but, the Lord confirms that a spirit can be disembodied:


Luke 24:36-39
King James Version (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


He doesn't say "There's no such thing as seeing a spirit," He states "...a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone."

That the Lord taught disembodied spirits is also seen in His rebuke of annihilation, as embraced by the Sadducees:


Matthew 22:28-32
King James Version (KJV)

28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


So much for annihilation.


Continued...

 

Again...

And again...


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)


Your doctrine is in conflict with Scripture.

Christ was not glorified yet, and would not be until after He died and arose.

Just basic Bible, Bob.


Continued...

 

In view is the glory of the Son overshadowing the veil of His flesh.

This is His innate Deity, not a glorification of His flesh.

Likewise.

Where do we read Elijah never died? Only by a wresting of numerous Basic Bible Principles can one say this of Enoch, and that is error as well, but not Elijah.

So if Moses is still alive, and Enoch is still alive, why isn't these two that appear with Christ on the Mount?

And that is what Paul did, He desired to be Raptured, which is when the Church is glorified:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


Again, we see reference to a disembodied spirit. Paul states "Not that we be unclothed (without our earthly house, the physical body), but that we be clothed with that house made without hands, that mortality be swallowed up with life:"


1 Corinthians 15:52-54
King James Version (KJV)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


But that does nothing to show Moses was alive on the mount, or that Christ was glorified. Both of which conflict with what Christ taught:


John 6:31-32 & 58
King James Version (KJV)

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.


58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The fathers are dead. This includes Moses during Christ's Ministry.


Continued...

 

Right, not...

"...fear Him Who is able to kill both body and soul in Hell."

Again, this flies in the face of your teaching, because we see destruction for both the body and the person, which implies a conscious destruction.

And I am still waiting for you to address the fact that Israel had been destroyed:


Matthew 10:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



Matthew 10:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


"Go to the "destroyed" of the House of Israel.

But you know what, Bob? They were still in existence, besides being in a state of destruction.

In fact the whole world was in a state of destruction:


Matthew 18:11-14
King James Version (KJV)

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


Mankind was Lost. Destroyed. Yet still in existence.

It is not God's will that men be destroyed in Hell, as opposed to be destroyed in their lifetimes (a constant state until saved).

Nothing in Matthew 10:28 about cessation of existence, but everything about the condition of men which already exists.


Continued...

 

That is correct, Bob, but it will de destruction that is identical to the destruction mankind already exists in, which is a state of separation from God.

In both men have a body. In this life, a physical body. In Hell, a body that will last forever.

And just to head off the typical argument to the Dead having bodies which endure eternity, this is not a "glorified body, because glorification is the Resurrection unto Life, whereas the Dead undergo the Resurrection unto damnation:


John 5:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


John 5:29
King James Version (KJV)

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Again, men have no life until saved. One obtains eternal life through faith in Christ, and those who end up in Hell will be dead...

...already.

So it is a false argument to ascribe eternal life to a being who has a body, and a spirit, and if they last forever that they have eternal "life," because that is just not the case.

They are dead, even if they have physical life.


Continued...

 

The person that sins...shall die.

Still waiting for you to tell me you believe men could gain eternal life by keeping the works of the Law listed in relation to being put to death, Bob.

That is the only way we can make this mean that in view is an eternal context, and the greatest problem you have is that if you maintain this teaching...

...you are denying Scripture, which teaches no man could be justified on an eternal basis through the works of the Law.

Nor did the Law give life to any man.

This would another gospel.

You know it, I know it, and anyone with a shred of common sense knows it.


Continued...

 

I like how you leave off the beginning of this context:


Ezekiel 28:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

And I have already shown the temporal context, maybe you might understand that better if I did it this way:


Ezek 28

13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;

I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.


And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.


In view is simply this King will no longer bring dread upon the earth.

When we apply it to Satan, again, that same principle, he will no longer bring dread upon the earth through his wickedness.

This last verse warrants another look, because the temporal context is clear, which shows what fate is being spoken about:


Ezekiel 28:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


In other words, he is not going to be present among the people any more. THis has application to both the temporal and the eternal, because Satan will no longer deceive the nations in a temporal sense (during the Millennial Kingdom) and in the eternal, because He will be in Hell.

And that his fate is everlasting torment is clear:


Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So again...

Continued...

 

Again, its a temporal context which involves physical bodies: read what it states.

Satan deceives the nations of the earth.

They are raised from the dead to be cast into Hell:


Revelation 20:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The Lake of Fire is The Place of Judgment. That is where the Dead are going to go, and it is an everlasting punishment.


Continued...

 

Don't you mean, "Until you read the Bible and apocryphal books."

No-one is arguing that Satan will at some point no longer be seen by the people of the (New) Earth.

Right, and for your doctrine to make sense it would have to state "Kill the body and soul in Hell."

It does not, it says God will destroy them, and as shown, this destruction does not demand cessation of existence, because Israel and all of mankind were conceived and born into that same state of destruction.

What do buildings have to do with the context?

It is the people that are destroyed, not the buildings. C'mon Bob, think about it a little.

And the people, the ones who suffered the judgment of God (which was physical death, by the way)...

...are still around:

Matthew 10:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


And as mentioned before, we see a variance of degree of punishment, which doesn't fit with your doctrine of annihilation.

There can't be varying degrees of annihilation, lol.


Continued...

 

It says the physical cities were reduced to ash, but their spirits stil exist, and will be judged, and cast into Hell.

Going into Hell is the judgment.

So not sure why you think repeating the same thing over and over is going to change what Scripture actually teaches. Do you really think this is a good argument? When in fact they were not reduced to ashes, but held over for judgment?

My arguments reduce yours to ashes, Bob.



So take this guy's advice...

God bless.

 

You are still placing the teachings of Ellen White above those of Jesus Christ!

 

Again "quoting yourself' since in this case you have no quote of me quoting Ellen White -- and we both know it.

At some point you need to give up creative writing and simply settle for "actual facts"

 

Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

Ezek 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"

Ezek 28 - reduced to ashes

Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Matthew 10:28 "DETROY both body and soul in fiery hell" as compared to those who merely "kill the body but unable to kill the soul".

DESTROYED Sodom and Gomorrah -- Luke 17:29 in fire and brimstone.
Destroyed by "reducing them to ashes" - 2 Peter 2:6 ... that city is gone.. buildings wiped out.

Annihilation - reduced to ashes as the text says -- would include cessation from among the living.

In any case your argument needs to ignore almost every contrary detail in the text you quote - that is contrary to your argument.

Indeed ... the cities "destroyed" by reducing them to ashes.
In the same way we see "both body and soul of the wicked" -- 'destroyed' in Matthew 10:28

And in hell "destroyed both body and soul".

So then the cities "Destroyed.. reduced to ashes" in the time of Abraham.

But the people that live there "destroyed" "both body and soul" Matt 10:28 after the millennium.

How are these details helping you?

Because the irrefutable texts - and the irrefutable point that goes with the details in those texts - do not get deleted by the mere fact that they were "posted once".... obviously.

You have conflated two different things --

the cities DESTROYED by reducing them to ashes.

Vs the wicked people of those cities "DESTROYED both body and soul in fiery hell" at the end of the 1000 years - in the lake of fire.

Were we "Simply not supposed to notice"??

How is this helping your argument?

Answer: it is not. Which is why I keep bringing it up.

more wishful thinking.

 

The scriptures do NOT teach either soul sleep or non existing anymore, but Ellen White did!