The Limited Gospel?

Van said:

Assertions without relevant citations are like obfuscation without truth.
Did Abraham physically die? Yes.(Genesis 25:7). Therefore according to your view, he was not righteous temporally.

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I have just given numerous citations in the preceding posts, Van. That is in fact the focus of the discussion at this point (and really the focus of the discussion in the OP.

According to Scripture's teaching, not my view, Abraham was righteous according to the flesh (temporally), not righteous on an eternal basis as men are when they are freely justified through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

And I wish you would learn a new word, brother. Obfuscation is a really cool word, but if you use it in every sentence it gets rather tiresome.

If you would like to address something I have said, please do so, but please don't charge me with a view that is the exact opposite of what I have just posted. That too gets tiresome.


God bless.

Gup20 said:

whereas the covenant of "works of the Law" was made with Moses on Mt. Sainai.

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Correct.

Gup20 said:

Yet, God calls Abraham's covenant the "eternal covenant."

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An everlasting covenant, not The Everlasting Covenant:



Hebrews 13:20-21
King James Version (KJV)


20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


The Everlasting Covenant was inaugurated with the Blood of Jesus Christ, not the blood of animals:


Genesis 15:8-10
King James Version (KJV)

8 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.


The Abrahamic Covenant is not the New Covenant, nor does it contain all of the Promises God would add to the promises made unto Abraham. The New Covenant does not nullify the specific promises given to Abraham, and those promises are fulfilled in the New Covenant, but, it is not the Abrahamic Covenant.


Continued...

Gup20 said:

In fact, one of the major arguments Paul makes in Galatians 3 is that you cannot apply tenets of covenant of The Law to the covenant of faith.

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You'd have to be a little more specific, lol.

The fact is that we can apply tenets of the Covenant of Law to the New Covenant, because GOd's principles are taught in the Law, and we establish those same principles in our lives. At least we are supposed to.

For example, we still do not commit idolatry, steal, lie, murder, etc.

However, it has to be understood that the Covenant of Law was specific to the Nation of Israel, it was not given to the world in general. Israel is an Old Testament picture of the Church, who herself is a picture of the One Fold seen in the Eternal State.

We are a witness nation unto God, His people.

Gup20 said:

It goes on to say that the covenant of faith was made 430 years before the covenant of the law, and that the covenant of faith was ratified and once ratified you can't add conditions to the covenant.

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Sure you can: the seed being revealed as the Seed, yet Abraham receiving the seed (singular), and the seed (plural, as innumerable as the stars).

What he says is that the Abrahamic Covenant was not nullified, it does not say God did not add to tehphysical understanding Abraham would have received it as. And in fact we see that even the Disciples of Christ looked for a physical fulfillment. Which is why Peter rejected the notion of Messiah dying, which was a rejection of the Gospel, by the way, though he is not found guilty because God was not revealing this to men, not giving them the understanding He would when the Spirit was sent.

Gup20 said:

This means that the tenets of the covenant of The Law have no bearing on the covenant of faith because the covenant of faith was ratified 430 years before the law was given.

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That is like trying to say "The Abrahamic Covenant did not add to the promise of redemption in the Adamic Covenant."

Its not "adding," or changing, its the nature of progressive revelation, Gup. The Gospel of Christ has always been the Plan of Redemption (from before the world was formed), and it is slowly revealed throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.


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Gup20 said:

This means that the tenets of the covenant of The Law have no bearing on the covenant of faith because the covenant of faith was ratified 430 years before the law was given.

Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

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Again, the Abrahamic Covenant is not "the Covenant of Faith."

The Faith of Christ is the Faith in view when Paul writes...


Galatians 3:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


This dogmatically denies the "faith of Abraham" is the Faith of Christ.

The Faith of Christ did not come until the appointed time, and is not equable to believing God concerning physical provision.

That is why the Writer of Hebrews denies to his brethren that they can continue to function, and be in relationship to God through the Foundational Principles of the Word of God (which would have been the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament):


Hebrews 6:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


Abraham had a general faith in God, that is evident, because The Faith of Christ had not yet come, and would not until He had arisen from the grave, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter (the Spirit of Promise, the Spirit of Grace, the Spirit of Truth) to bring conviction in a ministry directly to the hearts of men. He enlightens the natural mind to the spiritual things of God, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

...heads that list.

We are not called to go into another country, and we do not whine to GOd that we have no heir...

...we have received the Promises God has given mankind through Christ.


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Gup20 said:

So we see that this is the death knell to works-based salvation.

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Completely irrelevant to anything I said.

You quoted two things I have said, and presented a page of commentary...based on a false argument.

I made it clear that salvation has always been by the grace of God through faith. You respond with "Faith is not a work."

Gup20 said:

It shows that the covenant of faith pre-dated The Law by 430 years and was ratified, thereby demonstrating that the covenant of faith has always, and does now exist outside of and apart from The Law.

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That is a popular notion, but that does not warrant equating the Abrahamic Covenant with the New Covenant.

If it were the New Covenant of the New Testament, then someone should have told the Lord:


Matthew 26:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Animal blood inaugurated the Abrahamic Covenant, not the Blood (death) of Christ.

Someone should have told Paul as well:


2 Corinthians 3:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


We are not "ministers of the Abrahamic Covenant," but ministers of the New Covenant.

Gup20 said:

Yet, The Law has never existed alone and was meant to turn people back to the original covenant of faith.

Gal 3:24
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

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Sorry, but that is simply incorrect.

Look at your proof text again, and you will see that the Law was meant to lead us to Christ...

...not Abraham.


God bless.

Darrell C said:

First, I would point out that not only did I not say faith is a work, I pointed out clearly that salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Now that the false argument is out of the way, I would ask you to reconsider the point being made: salvation is by grace through faith, so, to credit Abraham's faith apart from the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to credit Abraham as being declared righteous on a basis of the faith itself.

And that is not the case.

You are equating salvation in Christ to the justification received by men who had not had the Gospel of Christ revealed to them, and they were not saved by believing part of the Gospel, because there is nothing there for them believe on. They did not understand (just as even the disciples of Christ did not understand) that when Messiah would come that He would not establish temporal redemption, but that in dying in their stead He would redeem them eternally and indwell them eternally. They did not believe (even as the disciples of Christ did not believe) that He would rise from the dead, because they did not know that He would die and thus rise from the dead.

That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That He died in the stead of the sinner that men might be reconciled to God. This took place when He manifested in flesh, died, arose, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter to reveal the Gospel to the hearts of men. No eye had seen, no ear had heard, and it had not entered into the hearts of men the things which God had prepared for them from before the world began.

You can impose understanding in them by misunderstanding what Paul speaks to the Galatians, but it still does not change the fact that Abraham died still in need of Atonement. As I said, if you say Abraham received Atonement prior to the Cross, then you will also have to supply the means for that Atonement.

Eternal Life began when Christ came, and not before:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


John 6:48-53
King James Version (KJV)

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Eternal Life was not given to men in the Old Testament, hence no man prior to the True Bread coming from Heaven can be ascribed as having eternal life.

This is seen throughout the Gospels. Here is one more example:


John 3:13-16
King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Abraham was credited righteousness based on what he did, not eternal life based on what Christ did. His faith brought about justification in a temporal sense, just as even today Christians can be justified in a temporal sense based on their faith and works, but, that is completely separate from being justified freely through the REdemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:20-25
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


As I said before, when we get to Romans 4 Paul is using Abraham as an example of men being justified by grace through faith, but he does not equate that justification with justification by His grace through the Redemption of Jesus Christ.


Continued...

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Moses, Elijah, Abraham, David NONE of them had eternal life?

DarrelC, your citations do not support your assertions. Abraham was not righteous, his faith was.
The claim that making a person's faith righteous makes the entire person righteous has no support in scripture. It is just an assertion. The claim Abraham was righteous temporally is shown to be false because he died physically.
So in the absence of any support for your erroneous assertions, you find fault with how I say things rather than address what I say.
Go figure.

Yeshua1 said:

Moses, Elijah, Abraham, David NONE of them had eternal life?

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Not until they received the promise of eternal inheritance and were made perfect.

They received eternal life retroactively when Christ died for their sins. While they were alive the only provision they had for sin was the blood of bulls and goats and calves, which could not take away sins. The last sacrifice for sins they would have offered up would have been that of an animal, who died in their stead to bring about temporal remission of sins, which was temporary, and had to be continually offered as long as one was alive.

The Law could not take away sins, nor make one perfect (complete) in regards to remission of sins:


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


And that includes animal sacrifice prior to the establishment of the Covenant of Law, noted by the Writer here:


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


He takes animal sacrifice back to the first person we see offering up sacrifice, Abel. We know that it is not His death in view, because it would make little sense to contrast Christ's death with Abel, who died for no-one, and died in need of Christ dying for him.

The Law could not give life:


Galatians 3:21-22
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


But Christ's Sacrifice does take away sins, and makes the comer thereunto perfect (complete) in regards to Remission of Sins...forever:


Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


And His Sacrifice (of Himself) and Resurrection does give life:


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. To remedy the condition of separation that began in Adam.

It is a common misconception that the Old Testament Saints received the Atonement prior to the Cross. That view cannot be supported by Scripture, and in fact is denied by the Word of God.


God bless.

Darrell C said:

Not until they received the promise of eternal inheritance and were made perfect.

They received eternal life retroactively when Christ died for their sins. While they were alive the only provision they had for sin was the blood of bulls and goats and calves, which could not take away sins. The last sacrifice for sins they would have offered up would have been that of an animal, who died in their stead to bring about temporal remission of sins, which was temporary, and had to be continually offered as long as one was alive.

The Law could not take away sins, nor make one perfect (complete) in regards to remission of sins:


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


And that includes animal sacrifice prior to the establishment of the Covenant of Law, noted by the Writer here:


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


He takes animal sacrifice back to the first person we see offering up sacrifice, Abel. We know that it is not His death in view, because it would make little sense to contrast Christ's death with Abel, who died for no-one, and died in need of Christ dying for him.

The Law could not give life:


Galatians 3:21-22
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


But Christ's Sacrifice does take away sins, and makes the comer thereunto perfect (complete) in regards to Remission of Sins...forever:


Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


And His Sacrifice (of Himself) and Resurrection does give life:


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. To remedy the condition of separation that began in Adam.

It is a common misconception that the Old Testament Saints received the Atonement prior to the Cross. That view cannot be supported by Scripture, and in fact is denied by the Word of God.


God bless.

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So you would see them as being saved and having their sins remitted by God due to the promised messiah who would come to take away their sin debt obligation, but that they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit as we all now have today under the NC?

Darrell C said:

But the sad thing is, Gup...you are teaching salvation by faith through grace.

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That was a slip of the tongue (or the fingers on the keyboard).

[/quote]

You are placing Abraham's faith and belief that God would give him an heir of his own bowels as the reason for his eternal redemption, and that is not the case.

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Perhaps this is where you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying this was the reason for his eternal redemption, but rather this was the reason for his selection. It is also the reason we are included in the selection (why they and we were chosen to bear that blessing).

He was eternally redeemed by the Shed Blood of Christ (His Death)...alone.

That is the Gift.

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I agree.

As I have already shown you, God promised the Seed in the Garden:

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I agree.

We can see the Gospel in that statement, but Abraham did not (and I am just going to explain that joke right now, lol: The Pentateuch didn't exist yet).

Nor did Abraham understand that the Seed was Jesus Christ, a Man that was God manifest in the flesh at a future time.

You are imposing into Galations 3 an understanding of those prior to the Revelation of the Mystery of Christ.

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None but that which Paul intended to convey.

My friend, this is not the Gospel.

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That's not what Paul said:


Paul says what he lays out in Galatians is The Gospel of Christ and any other gospel is "another gospel." He says anyone who teaches a contrary gospel of Christ than that which he preaches in Galatians 3-4 should be accursed.

No man was saved, much less Eternally Redeemed...

...because of their heritage.

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This isn't my idea, it's Paul's idea.

So I take exception to your statement that "I am not a son of Abraham, I am a son of God." If you are to believe the scripture, you are certainly both, this is HOW salvation works. I believe you are most certainly a child of God and therefore a child of Abraham and an heir with Christ according to the promise God gave Abraham.

They could not believe that which God did not reveal.

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Yet, God revealed the tiniest part of the Gospel and it was faith in that which qualified Abraham to be chosen.

They could not place faith in a Risen Savior until He died.

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I agree. This is why Peter said,

Mere belief? Christ died for us, and there is nothing "mere" about that.

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I agree. Yet this statement is from our perspective, not Jesus' perspective. For our part, nothing is required except for mere belief. If our belief is genuine, then our actions should correspond to what we believe (which as the point of the book of James).

Darrell C said:

First, the other thread deals, not with the Mysteries revealed in the New Testament, but the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has to be distinguished from other Mysteries.

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Are you a follower of the Babylonian Mystery Religion? Of course how and why faith matters to salvation is part of the Mystery.

Secondly, I hope that by the time we sort out your understanding of the Gospel in relation to those who received the Gospel but did not have the understanding of it revealed to them you will have a better overall understanding of the Faith of Abraham.

What is the Mystery?

You can't possibly believe it is now revealed to the Saints and...

...still argue that Paul taught that the Mystery of the Gospel was revealed to Abraham.

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Not the fullness of it, but enough to qualify him to receive righteousness.

You keep saying you believe it then proceed to deny in your own statements that you believe that.

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I think you are conflating what I mean with your own understanding of what "the mysteries" mean.

The fact is Abraham did not have the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed to Him...at all.

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I agree, and another fact is he didn't need it to be. Understanding (a full understanding) wasn't required, only belief. God knew the mystery, God preached the gospel (in mystery form) and Abraham believed it insofar as he could understand it. This was enough to qualify him to be chosen for the blessing.

The imputation of righteousness was based on what he did, which was to obey GOd, believe God, and place his faith in God's promises.

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Sure.

That is why he was saved in the eternal perspective, and did not go into torment as unbelievers did, but awaited his Eternal Redemption through the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

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I don't disagree.

Darrell C said:

So what...was he saved from? lol

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Abraham's righteousness was temporal, based on what he did...that cannot be denied.

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First, it wasn't Abraham's righteousness because it was given to him by God. Yes, it was based on what he did - he believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ that God preached to him.

Abraham was saved by grace through faith, just as every man is,

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On this we agree 100%.

but, he was not eternally redeemed because he believed God would provide the heir He said He would.

And he was not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not even partially, as you insist.

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Is Abraham now eternally redeemed? I believe yes, he is. When did he have a chance to do this - before or after his death? After Jesus completed his work, yes?

So the works and faith of Abraham in believing the Gospel of Christ God preached to him was sufficient to qualify him for the blessing yet to come, wasn't it? So my point is that this was so that we - who also believe the Gospel of Christ as Abraham did - are inheritors of Christ's righteousness given to Abraham and the promise that he would be heir of the world was through the righteousness that comes by faith so that he would be the father of all who believe.

Darrell C said:

Is that the Gospel you preach to men, Gup?

"You can believe any part of the Gospel...?"

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It is the same Gospel, yet we have a fuller understanding now and it is that fuller understanding (of the same Gospel of Jesus Christ) which I preach.

Why would what Abraham believed and what men today are commanded to believe be any different?

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It isn't different, we just know more of the details. For exmaple, I don't need to know that gravity pulls things down at 9.8m/sec on earth to believein gravity. Having the greater amount of detail gives me a more accurate understanding and enriches my belief.

Let me make a point you cannot argue: if salvation was possible simply by believing on the promised Messiah, then guess what, you have just ascribed salvation to all the Jews...

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Now that it has been revealed that Jesus is that Messiah, I must believe that greater revelation to qualify as a descendant. Obviously, in Abraham's day Jesus hadn't come yet so believing that He had would have been believing another gospel. Isaiah hadn't come yet in Abraham's day either, so Abraham didn't have to believe the things about Messiah that Isaiah said either. All Abraham had to do was believe that which had already been revealed by God at that time... which is all we have to do also, it's just that we have had more revealed.

...still waiting for Messiah to come the first time.

Understand the problem there, Gup?

You have just said that "believing part of the Gospel" is acceptable to God, and that one can be saved thus. That is a false gospel, my friend. And again, I don't say this to offend you, but to point out the error in your doctrine.

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I see your point and am willing to change my thinking to adopt the position that Abraham needed only believe that which had been revealed up to that point. See, our conversation has progressed my own understanding.

The fact is that the Jews still awaiting Christ are those who have rejected Jesus Christ, and that has been true for two millennia:

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It is also a fact that the Jews have been exiled from the promised land for 2000 years (until 1967) and remain without a Temple as a result of crucifying the Messiah.

Darrell C said:

That's great, but, I will preach Christ crucified (accomplished fact) so that men might be made the sons of God.

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I wouldn't advocate anything else.

Being "a son of Abraham" is figurative for the Christian, but being a son of God is...a necessity.

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Both are a necessity as this is the legal form salvation takes. This is how Jesus Himself could inherit again the righteousness he gave up by "becoming sin" on our behalf.

We are born of God, not born of Abraham. Abraham was just a man, though a picture of faith. But we cannot make the picture of faith equal to the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

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And if we belong to God (are born of God) then are we Abraham's descendants and heirs of Christ's righteousness which was given to Abraham and then promised as an inheritance to all his descendants.

God is Sovereign in Salvation, and supplies the belief necessary Himself, because our belief (as well as the belief of those who reject Christ) is a result of the Comforter's Ministry, not something that is found within man.

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God doesn't lie. He promised it as an inheritance to Abraham's descendants - those with the same faith in the Gospel of Christ that Abraham had. He blesses because of His promise. He chooses because of His promise. God doesn't indivually "elect" people to believe, but rather, it is a choice He gives men. It is not a decision God makes in heaven (who will believe), but is something he sets before men to choose.

Yeshua1 said:

So you would see them as being saved and having their sins remitted by God due to the promised messiah who would come to take away their sin debt obligation, but that they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit as we all now have today under the NC?

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No I would not see them as having their sins remitted due to Christ...that is the entire point of the Writer of Hebrews: Remission of Sins was not accomplished until Christ died, and the sins of the Old Testament Saint (the Just) we redeemed at the same time:


Hebrews 9:12 and 15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The Eternal Indwelling is not something they had either, which is evident in Christ's teaching throughout John 14.

For example:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Here we see the eternal indwelling of the Spirit and the Son.

Here...


John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


...we see the indwelling of the Father and Son. Now the important thing we want to notice is that it is...

...not happening at the time of the teaching.

Christ is speaking of what is going to happen when He sends the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter.


God bless.

Gup20 said:

That was a slip of the tongue (or the fingers on the keyboard).

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UNderstood, it happens to all of us, lol. I once spent about three pages addressing what came out of a "slip of the tongue."

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

You are placing Abraham's faith and belief that God would give him an heir of his own bowels as the reason for his eternal redemption, and that is not the case. He was, as explained in my previous response...justified according to the flesh through his belief, faith, and works.

He was eternally redeemed by the Shed Blood of Christ (His Death)...alone.

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Perhaps this is where you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying this was the reason for his eternal redemption, but rather this was the reason for his selection. It is also the reason we are included in the selection (why they and we were chosen to bear that blessing).

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Neh 9:7
“You are the LORD God,
Who chose Abram
And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees,
And gave him the name Abraham.
8 “You found his heart faithful before You,
And made a covenant with him
To give him the land of the Canaanite,
Of the Hittite and the Amorite,
Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite—
To give it to his descendants.
And You have fulfilled Your promise,
For You are righteous.

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So you are now saying that Abraham did not receive the Gospel of Christ and understand it?

We shall see.

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

We can see the Gospel in that statement, but Abraham did not (and I am just going to explain that joke right now, lol: The Pentateuch didn't exist yet).

Nor did Abraham understand that the Seed was Jesus Christ, a Man that was God manifest in the flesh at a future time.

You are imposing into Galations 3 an understanding of those prior to the Revelation of the Mystery of Christ.

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None but that which Paul intended to convey.

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On the contrary, you are imposing what I just said above.

The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to Abraham, nor to any saint, nor to the sons of men...in Ages and generations prior to the coming of the Spirit of Truth:


Ephesians 3:3-6
King James Version (KJV)

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


This stands a,one and clarifies the Mystery revealed to Paul was not made known prior to this revelation.

To limit it to a context of Gentile Inclusion is the mistake most make because of the following statement:


6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


The revelation is the Mystery of Christ, and that is not limited to Gentile Inclusion, even as it is not here:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Made known to "all nations" includes Israel.


Continued...

Gup20 said:

That's not what Paul said:

Gal 1:6
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Paul says what he lays out in Galatians is The Gospel of Christ and any other gospel is "another gospel." He says anyone who teaches a contrary gospel of Christ than that which he preaches in Galatians 3-4 should be accursed.

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Gup20 said:

This isn't my idea, it's Paul's idea.

Rom 4:11
and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Gal 3:6
Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
So I take exception to your statement that "I am not a son of Abraham, I am a son of God." If you are to believe the scripture, you are certainly both, this is HOW salvation works. I believe you are most certainly a child of God and therefore a child of Abraham and an heir with Christ according to the promise God gave Abraham.

Click to expand...

This is what you said, to which I said "...that is not the Gospel:"

Gup20 said:

they didn't earn it... they just inherit it by being qualified as descendants of Abraham.

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We don't just inherit it by being qualified as descendants of Abraham. We must...

...belong to Christ.

Secondly, that is the whole point I am making: you are equating those who "followed in the steps of Abraham" with those who, in this Age, have turned to Christ through the Gospel.


"Abraham believed God" is contrasted with those who receive the blessing Abraham was foretold of, but did not himself receive. We believe on the Risen Savior, not generalities as Abraham did.

So if you want to "take exception" to the simple fact that I am not a son of Abraham, that is your choice, lol. This I can tell you, Abraham was not a son of GOd as we are made sons of God now that the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ has been revealed. I don't have to adopt modern concepts to "believe the Scripture."


And lastly, you are still overlooking one simple fact...

Gup20 said:

I believe you are most certainly a child of God and therefore a child of Abraham and an heir with Christ according to the promise God gave Abraham.

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...Abraham did not receive the Promise.

So why do you equate Abraham's faith with that of my own, or yours.

Abraham was given promise, but did not receive it. I have made that point numerous times and yet you still ignore it, and continue to present Abraham as though his faith is equal to ours, rather than a model, as Paul makes clear.

Gup20 said:

I agree. This is why Peter said,

1Pe 3:19
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

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Bingo.

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

They could not place faith in a Risen Savior until He died.

Click to expand...

I agree. Yet this statement is from our perspective, not Jesus' perspective. For our part, nothing is required except for mere belief. If our belief is genuine, then our actions should correspond to what we believe (which as the point of the book of James).

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You don't agree, lol. You keep arguing that they "placed faith in the Risen Savior" outside of time.

They did not. That would make the teaching of the Mystery of the Gospel moot.

And as far as "Jesus' Perspective, that is another thing you overlook" the Man Jesus Christ has a beginning in time. He was the Eternal Son of GOd born into human flesh at a specific point in time.

And that is what Abraham was promised, yet he did not know this. Paul makes this point and in no way does he impose an understanding in Abraham, while at the same time teaching that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery.

Its either one or the other, not both.


God bless.

Darrell C said:

No I would not see them as having their sins remitted due to Christ...that is the entire point of the Writer of Hebrews: Remission of Sins was not accomplished until Christ died, and the sins of the Old Testament Saint (the Just) we redeemed at the same time:


Hebrews 9:12 and 15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The Eternal Indwelling is not something they had either, which is evident in Christ's teaching throughout John 14.

For example:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Here we see the eternal indwelling of the Spirit and the Son.

Here...


John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


...we see the indwelling of the Father and Son. Now the important thing we want to notice is that it is...

...not happening at the time of the teaching.

Christ is speaking of what is going to happen when He sends the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter.


God bless.

Click to expand...

God though was able to apply saving grace towards them, as he saved on Cross that to Him was already a done deal!

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

First, the other thread deals, not with the Mysteries revealed in the New Testament, but the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has to be distinguished from other Mysteries.

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Are you a follower of the Babylonian Mystery Religion?

Click to expand...

Would you like to post what it is that warrants a question like this?

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

First, the other thread deals, not with the Mysteries revealed in the New Testament, but the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has to be distinguished from other Mysteries.

Click to expand...

Of course how and why faith matters to salvation is part of the Mystery.

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How is this even relevant to what I said?

You said this:

Gup20 said:

I actually have no idea what the purpose of this thread is or what argument you're making and why this doesn't have to do with "the mysteries." This IS the mystery that has now been revealed to the saints.

Click to expand...

I think I've already dealt with this sufficiently, but let me say again, there are Mysteries (plural) revealed in the New Testament, and the other thread dealt with one of those Mysteries (plural), the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Its not a matter of "how and why faith matters," but the object of faith, which is different between Abraham and believers today, who do not have a general faith in God or His Promises, but place their faith specifically in Jesus Christ.

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

First, the other thread deals, not with the Mysteries revealed in the New Testament, but the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has to be distinguished from other Mysteries.

Click to expand...

Secondly, I hope that by the time we sort out your understanding of the Gospel in relation to those who received the Gospel but did not have the understanding of it revealed to them you will have a better overall understanding of the Faith of Abraham.

Click to expand...

RIght, lol. And this is the same thing you first said to me, "praying" I would change my view. You would have me adopt yours? A teaching that it doesn't really matter if men place their faith in Christ or not?

That Abraham was just as saved as we without believing on Christ?

No thanks, my friend, I will stick with my own view that you, and most, equate the faith of Abraham with the faith of the born again believer, who have been, unlike Abraham, forgiven their sins through the Atonement, Reconciled to God through Christ's death, and indwelt by God in eternal union.

So, begin sorting, Gup.

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

You can't possibly believe it is now revealed to the Saints and...

...still argue that Paul taught that the Mystery of the Gospel was revealed to Abraham.

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Not the fullness of it, but enough to qualify him to receive righteousness.

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You did it again, lol.

You simply do not have an understanding of what a Mystery is.

It is knowledge...not previously revealed.

Do you also think the Rapture was known in part in the Old Testament?

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

You keep saying you believe it then proceed to deny in your own statements that you believe that.

Click to expand...

I think you are conflating what I mean with your own understanding of what "the mysteries" mean.

Click to expand...

My own understanding has nothing to do with the fact that you are, publicly...making up position as you go. That is why your position is so unstable.

And you have just said one thing then reversed yourself..again:

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

You can't possibly believe it is now revealed to the Saints and...

...still argue that Paul taught that the Mystery of the Gospel was revealed to Abraham.

Click to expand...

Not the fullness of it, but enough to qualify him to receive righteousness.

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That's the point of this thread, Gup...Abraham did not receive a "limited Gospel."

He did not receive "part of the mystery."

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

The fact is Abraham did not have the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed to Him...at all.

Click to expand...

I agree, and another fact is he didn't need it to be.

Click to expand...

Again, you say you agree, all the while arguing against what it is you say you agree with.

Now you say he didn't need it to be, which denies most of the arguments you have already submitted..

Now, the fact is, you are right here...he did not need the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to him to be saved, he simply needed to be obedient to the revelation he did receive, believe God, and place his faith in God.

And that is quite different from what men are called to believe in today. They are called to believe on Jesus Christ, and general faith for those who have heard the Gospel will result in Eternal Judgment.

Gup20 said:

Understanding (a full understanding) wasn't required, only belief.

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You're still trying to defend your previous arguments, lol. "A full understanding?"

There was...no understanding, because the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to the sons of men, or the saints, in any Age or Generation, but is now revealed to His holy Apostles and Prophets by the Spirit.

Once you set your pride to the side and stop trying to defend it, you can move on to embracing doctrine that is stable, and stands against the isleading concepts popularly held by many these days.

Gup20 said:

God knew the mystery, God preached the gospel (in mystery form)

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Here we go again.

You denying what you've just said.

Gup20 said:

God knew the mystery, God preached the gospel (in mystery form) and Abraham believed it insofar as he could understand it.

Click to expand...

Abraham did not place faith in the Gospel of Christ as understood by Paul as Paul expounds the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Gup20 said:

This was enough to qualify him to be chosen for the blessing.

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What blessing? Blessing was to come through Abraham, and what Paul teaches is that the blessing...was Christ.

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

The imputation of righteousness was based on what he did, which was to obey God, believe God, and place his faith in God's promises.

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Sure.

Click to expand...

But you don't really believe that.

You have been arguing that Abraham placed faith in Jesus Christ.

Gup20 said:

Darrell C said:

That is why he was saved in the eternal perspective, and did not go into torment as unbelievers did, but awaited his Eternal Redemption through the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree.

Click to expand...

So you believe two things to be true?


God bless.

Yeshua1 said:

God though was able to apply saving grace towards them, as he saved on Cross that to Him was already a done deal!

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This is false doctrine, and I have shown you several times that it is.

Now, go find Scripture to support your heresy.


God bless.