Speaking in Tongues Continued

"The gifts and calling of God" in Romans 11:29 are not speaking of the gifts of the Holy Spirit which are discussed in chapters 12-14. If you continue to assert that the gifts of prophecy and tongues and such continue to the time of the coming of Christ or longer you actually deny the Word of God. God says they cease; you say they continue. I will believe God over you.
DHK

Ray said:I feel sorry for some of your lack of spiritual insight in trying to push the 'gifts of the Spirit' into your own erring spiritual handbag. No, His gifts and callings are without repentance; have you also forgot this Scripture? Review Romans 11:29. Jesus message in His Book tells us that it is not over until He says it is over!! When? At the ending of all world and human history.

Amen Brother

Glad Tidings to all,

Tam

DHK,

Do you believe/swallow everything your pastor or denomination feeds you? I see very little discernment and understanding of the Word. In Romans 9:11 the Lord does not classify any particular gift so it is an all inclusive statement.

Does He give a sinner salvation and later take it away from Him? Does God sanctify a sinner made Christian--set them apart for holy service and then allow him to totally defect from the faith? Do you still learn 'knowledge' as you learn from the Bible and other grounded Christians? Is His grace give and then taken away? The 'gifts of knowledge, tongues and prophecy'/preaching will endure because He is still calling people to repentance and faith through the preaching of the Gospel, not unless you believe as Mr. {Calvinist} Camping thinks. Jesus general statment stands. 'His gifts and callings are without repentance' no matter what you were wrongfully taught. If you keep backing up on light--the Spirit of God will take away other things because of your lack of understanding and belief in His statements.

What other things were only given to the church temporarily? You see my point . . .

At least do not quench the Spirit of God in your heart by attributing the things of the Lord, which you do not yet understand, to the evil one. You will never grow into a greater understanding of the Lord, if you repel His words of truth.

DHK,

It is a common occurance on this board for people to totally ignore the passages and interpretation of other people, by never answering what they think those verses mean. Why? Because they have no light or enlightenment on those passages.

People have a tendency when they do not know the truth to merely repeat what Uncle John said years ago. Of course, he was never trained in a Bible College by the doctors of the church.

But, God forbid you tell him how to weld at the steel plant where he works. He knows his line of work and should stay out of guessing as to what Scripture is saying. Let those type of people learn before they scatter their error among us.

Some of the ideas are laughable while others are sad or sick views.

Hello Ray,

You are assuming that DHK has not had the benefit of a Bible College or Seminary education.

Brian,

"You have been shown time after time that Tongues ends at a different time."

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No...we havent.

The ATTEMPT has been made time after time to show us, but those attempts have been completly unconvincing in light of the testimony of Gods scriptures.

Grace and peace,

Mike

By the way, has everyone noticed that I am now in the "1000 posts" club?

Dont mean to brag or anything, but its right there...under my name...

"1000 Posts Club"

I notice that I am currently 73 posts behind Tamborine Lady(another new member of the 1000 posts club) so if I seem to be posting a lot you'll know why. I'm aiming to jump ahead of her by the 1st of February 06.

(Not that I'm overly competitive or anything...)

I now return you to your regularly scheduled posting.

Mike

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

Do you believe/swallow everything your pastor or denomination feeds you? I see very little discernment and understanding of the Word. In Romans 9:11 the Lord does not classify any particular gift so it is an all inclusive statement.

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Ray, by the demeanor of your posts you seem to put a lot of stock in one's educational background, and assume that others have none at all. I find that in the last two or three posts that you have written to me you have come across like that, in a way as making it almost as a personal attak, which is totally unnecessary. I do not believe it is necessary--ever--to put down my qualifications to defend myself. I don't defend myself or my position through my educational background, but rather through the Scriptures. I exhort you to do the same. If you can't then it appears that your position is the one that is obviously wrong.

At any rate, just to satisfy you, I will state that: I have been a pastor for 30 years, and a missionary for 20 years, and a Bible College teacher for 25 years. I don't delight in listing my qualifications for I don't believe it is necessary. I have had 8 years of post-secondary education, enough to accumulate a number of degrees, which I am not going to list for you here.

Thus my conclusions do not come from my pastor (which I am), or my denomination (which I don't have). They come from my own study of the Scriptures. I exhort you to do the same.

Does He give a sinner salvation and later take it away from Him?

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No, we are eternally secure in the hand of God (Rom. 8:1: John 10:27-30)

Does God sanctify a sinner made Christian--set them apart for holy service and then allow him to totally defect from the faith?

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Man is not to judge. The Bible says that: "The Lord knows them that are his." It doesn't say that "man knows them that are God's" Man presumes too much upon himself. There will be surprises in heaven. Sometimes when a person "defects" from the faith we cannot tell if he was never a Christian in the first place, or if he simply is backslidden. Only God knows the heart (Jer.17:9)

Do you still learn 'knowledge' as you learn from the Bible and other grounded Christians?

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The day we cease learning is the day we die. We are always learning. But the gift of knowledge (1Cor.13:8), which is specifically revelatory knowledge, and has nothing to do with common knowledge, has ceased, and ceased at the end of the first century. It was a gift, a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit given to the early church of the first century that is ho longer needed today for the entire Word of God has now been completed.

Is His grace give and then taken away? The 'gifts of knowledge, tongues and prophecy'/preaching will endure because He is still calling people to repentance and faith through the preaching of the Gospel, not unless you believe as Mr. {Calvinist} Camping thinks. Jesus general statment stands. 'His gifts and callings are without repentance' no matter what you were wrongfully taught. If you keep backing up on light--the Spirit of God will take away other things because of your lack of understanding and belief in His statements.

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First of all, I do not know who "Camping" is.
Secnodly, I am not a Calvinist.
Thirdly, the gifts and calling of repentance mentioned in Romans chapter 11 are in the middle of a context that deals with the nation of Israel. Whereas 1Cor.12-14 are chapters which deal with spiritual gifts. The two statements or passages have little in common with each other. Romans 11:29 has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit described in 1Cor.12-14. Taking Scripture out of context is not wise. It is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

What other things were only given to the church temporarily? You see my point . . .

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No, I don't see your point at all. Read through the book of Acts. You will see that the early church was a church in transition, and there were many things applicable to them that are no longer applicable to us.

At least do not quench the Spirit of God in your heart by attributing the things of the Lord, which you do not yet understand, to the evil one. You will never grow into a greater understanding of the Lord, if you repel His words of truth.

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You say I do not understand. Who are you to judge? I believe it is you that does not understand the Scriptures here. Tongues and other sign gifts ceased at the end of the first century. Then all of a sudden reappeared at the beginning of the 20th century. So are you to tell me that during 1900 years of church history the Holy Spirit was dead? Is that your belief? Incredible!
Do you deny the Word of God, and in effect call God a liar? What did God say?
Read 1Cor.13:8. He said these gifts would cease, didn't he. He did not say they would continue, but cease. You are the one that is saying they will continue, directly contradicting what God has written in his Word. Who are we to believe: Ray or God's Word? I know where my decision lies.
DHK

DHK,

You posted...

"At any rate, just to satisfy you, I will state that: I have been a pastor for 30 years, and a missionary for 20 years, and a Bible College teacher for 25 years. I don't delight in listing my qualifications for I don't believe it is necessary. I have had 8 years of post-secondary education, enough to accumulate a number of degrees,"

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Thats the 1st time I've seen you share that, and your statement there brought to mind the Apostle Paul.

He had multitudes of qualifications of course..."Hebrew of the Hebrews", "a Pharisee", "concerning the Law, blameless", etc.

Yet I believe that passage in Philippians is the only time in his writings he ever mentioned his scholastic learning in any way, and that only to say it meant nothing to him compared to knowing Christ.

You share his trait of humility and perspective.

God bless,

Mike

Mike when Paul syas that Tongues and Prophecy/Knowledge will cease he uses one verb to say when Tongues will cease and one verb to show when P. and K. will end. "Katargeo" is used for P and K. and the way it is used means that something will make them end, Thus it can be said that P. and K. will end when something happens that makes them end. That we know is the coming of the "Perfect". "Pauo" is used for when Tongues will end. Used in the way it is used, (reflexative, etc...) it means "to stop on their own", so Paul says of tongues literally, "They will stop on their own" or "They will fade away by themselves" I used earlier the example of a candle burning out. Paul used the two words for a reason. The Bible is not written in some willy-nilly fashion. Paul had a message for us on Tongues, just by the words the Holy Spirit chose for him to use. It makes no sense to say that Tongues and P.and K. end at the same time. If you can't refute this proof then it has to be true.

I challange M4H, Mike, Link, or Ray to show another expalnation of why Paul chose the words I listed above. Thanks!!

In Christ,
Brian

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Briguy,

I wasn't going to ask, but I decided I will.

How does one "pray in the Holy Ghost"?

Jude 1-Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost.

I know how I do it, but tell me, do you pray in the Holy Ghost, and if so, how.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

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Briguy,

I know you have been busy, so I just wanted to bring this to your attention.

Peace,

Tam

DHK,

You said, You say I do not understand. Who are you to judge? I believe it is you that does not understand the Scriptures here. Tongues and other sign gifts ceased at the end of the first century. Then all of a sudden reappeared at the beginning of the 20th century. So are you to tell me that during 1900 years of church history the Holy Spirit was dead? Is that your belief? Incredible!
Do you deny the Word of God, and in effect call God a liar? What did God say?
Read 1Cor.13:8. He said these gifts would cease, didn't he. He did not say they would continue, but cease. You are the one that is saying they will continue, directly contradicting what God has written in his Word. Who are we to believe: Ray or God's Word? I know where my decision lies.

I am judging you through the Word of God which you reject at to 'gifts of the Spirit.' I can only evaluate you by what you write down in the post. I have no reason to not like you as a person.

I have been to denominational schools and I know how they can run 'rough shod' over Scripture that does not fit into their denominational teaching. I always had enough spiritual insight and 'guts' not to 'buy in on' what they said just to stay in a particular denomination. I left one denominational seminary because they were unbending in favor of their 5 points of Calvinism. The professor never even wanted to hear, yet allow for debate against his heresies.

Give us a verse saying that the 'gifts' ended by 70 A.D. or the first century. Some of the church fathers indicate that the 'gifts' were still being manifest into the second century, which discounts you wrong view.

The 'gifts' never reappear; there always has been a remnant of Christians who believed every word in the N.T. The Holy Spirit has been at work in every century even in spite of the multiple evils in our days and lives.

It is difficult for me to acknowledge that you were or are a Bible College teacher in the light that you have stated that people who have these gifts are of the Devil an say that 'am I a liar' toward the Lord. While you may be a Bible College teacher, you are also a spiritual bigot because you allow for no 'movement' between such a clear teaching of the Word of God. When we have Christ's love in our heart we allow for other Christians to have their justifiable reasons for their belief system, though we do not have to agree with them. An educated person 99 44/100 of the time is open to other views knowing that men and women of God hold other positions than their own. This does not mean that we cannot knock down their wrong interpretations and know our own to be right.

I Corinthians 13:8 says they will cease, but He did not lock down the time framework that you argue for because of a denominational bias.

Yes, we are to believe the Lord and His Word, the Bible.

All of us notice how you never take on passages like Revelation and the two prophets who prophecy.
Imagine, prophecying in the future to our time. When you do not stay on issue of our stated verses you show you total lack of authorative and Christian credibility.

You have repeatedly refused to answer our objections to your view and thus have 'fallen by the wayside' as counterfeits.

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One more question in light of all the words being thrown around. Now 1 Cor. has been torn at alot and my question is this. Some say perfect is nuter. Ok who says it is? Did scholars come together and figure all this out and drew their own conclusions? The bible should not have to be that dificult to understand what Paul is talking about there. It don't say nothing about 70 AD ending the gifts of the Spirit nor that they will cease after John got the Revelation book written and then later when the bible was canonized. I am usually not thick headed and will always try to look at the other side of the coin. But so far no scripture is proving tongues or prophecy have ceased yet.
MOHO(my own humble opinion).... Paul would have known this when writting 1Cor 12 and stated somewhere the gifts would be for a short time pointing to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD or when the word is completly written in canon bible book form.

DHK

First of all, the book of Revelation says that the beast will make war against the saints, and since the resurrection does not occur until the end of the book, and no other verse of scripture that I have ever seen says there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, I believe the church will be here until Christ returns.

But really that is beside the point. I Corinthians 13 says that when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away. It does not say anything about tribulation or church ages. If prophecy has ceased, then there is no reason to think it will start up again. And if it will be here in the future, there is no reason to think that the gift has only temporarily ceased. If prophecy ceased, and will be here during the tribulation, what's to say it will not come back before the tribulation, in an end times move of God that started around 1900?

Briguy

Assuming what you said is true, I don't see anything in the passage that tells when tongues will 'fade out by themselves.'

Something about your argument does not seem realistic to me. I just read an article by a Greek scholar explaining that a lot of assertions that people make about the Greek present tense are not true, and demonstrating this from multiple examples from scripture. He often does this in his emails. A lot of preachers and theologians make assertions about the meanings of Greek verb tenses that are not really true.

music4Him,

You make a very excellent point. I am sure that 98% of the Greek speaking people did not understand the technical grammatical nuances of the language.

The Bible was written down for the average person to understand enough to get to Heaven and to live for the Lord Jesus through love and witnessing to what Christ has done for us.

TamborineLady,

You asked Briguy again about your question concerning how he "prays in the Holy Ghost".

You may have accidently scrolled past this, but I believe this was his response.

From his post of Dec 15, 2005, 12:14pm, on page 2 of this thread...

(Answering earlier question)
Romans 14
[17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1 cor. 2
10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 tim. 1
[12] For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
[13] Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[14] That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Hi Guys, Praying in the Holy Spirit/Ghost means to me that the Holy Spirit guides my prayer. Things are brought to memory by the Holy Spirit as well as Truths being understood. The Holy Spirit dwells within me. There is not a way I can pray without the Holy Spirit. Now I could, during prayer, ignore the Holy Spirit or saying something that is not right but I believe the Holy Spirit working in me would convict me and bring about in me what He desires. So, Praying in the Holy Spirit is to pray in Truth, joy, understanding, and love(that is putting others needs in front of your own). Well, that was a short, sweet answer. Hope it helps you to understand my perspective.

In Christ,
Brian

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Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
music4Him,

You make a very excellent point. I am sure that 98% of the Greek speaking people did not understand the technical grammatical nuances of the language.

The Bible was written down for the average person to understand enough to get to Heaven and to live for the Lord Jesus through love and witnessing to what Christ has done for us.

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Anyone with any basic knowledge of the Greek language would know that "teleion" is a neuter noun in the Greek. It doesn't take a scholar to figure that out. It is basic Greek. If English is the only language you know you may not understand that concept. Anyone speaking their language would understand immediately that nouns and pronouns must agree in gender. God doesn't make mistakes in grammar. Are you suggesting he does?
Any French speaking person would realize right away that "la maison" means "the house," and that it is a feminine noun preceded by the feminine form of "the" or "la," instead of the masculine "le." Grammar is not that difficult. Nouns, adjectives, etc. must agree in gender. No one speaking French would ever say "le maison." It wouldn't even make sense to them. It doesn't sound right. There are two words of two different genders juxtaposed one against each other, one trying to define the other. It doesn't happen. Greek is even more precise in its grammar than French is. "teleion" is a Greek neuter noun, and there is no argument against it. Even the common slave would understand that. It is not a technical term. It is basic grammar or speech.

The Bible was written down for the average person to understand enough to get to Heaven and to live for the Lord Jesus through love and witnessing to what Christ has done for us.

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This statement is fallacious. The Bible is God's revelation to mankind. It was written primaarily to believers, not to show how unbelievers can get to heaven, but rather how believers ought to live in light of the salvation that God has provided for them.

Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
DHK

Originally posted by Link:
DHK

First of all, the book of Revelation says that the beast will make war against the saints, and since the resurrection does not occur until the end of the book, and no other verse of scripture that I have ever seen says there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, I believe the church will be here until Christ returns.

But really that is beside the point. I Corinthians 13 says that when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away. It does not say anything about tribulation or church ages.

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It doesn't have to say anything about it does it?
That is like the non-trinitarian saying: Give me one verse of Scipture to demonstrate the doctrine of the trinity. There may not be "one" verse of Scripture. However, by a comparison of many Scriptures we see that the trinity is clearly taught in the Scriptures.
In like manner, it doesn't have to say "the church age" right there in 1Cor.13. There are many other passages of Scripture to go to.

First realize that this is an epistle written to "a church."
Second, it was written in answer to the "church" having first written Paul. Now Paul is writing back and he is answering and correcting the abuses that are apparent in "their church." They were "church problems." The gifts of the Holy Spirit" wwere being discussed because they were being abused. They were problematic "in the church at Corinth."
Third, recognize what the Scripture itself says:

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
--Paul writing to "this church" said that they came behind in to gift (i.e., spiritual gift). They were gifts given to the churches, and at the church at Corinth all the spiritual gifts were manifest. This was not true of every church. Not every church had need of every gift. But every gift was manifested at Corinth.

Fourth, realize that these gifts will cease.
1Cor.13:8 says specifically concerning prophecy, tongues, and (revelatory) knowledge, that they will all pass away or cease. He did not say continue; he said cease. That is an important point to remember. They will cease! They will not continue! There are some comparisons made in that chapter. I will give you one of them. He mentions "faith, hope and love." Love is the only gift that will continue on into eternity. Therefore "the greatest of these is love." Faith and hope will end. They will cease to be when Christ comes again. We walk by faith and not by sight. When Christ comes we will have no more need of faith and hope. Yet Paul does not speak directly of faith and hope ceasing. He does speak directly of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge ceasing. They, of a necesity must cease before faith and hope. He is making a comparison. These are temporary gifts. They will not last as long as faith and hope; thus he says specifically that they will cease, and not continue--as faith and hope will until the coming of Christ.

If prophecy has ceased, then there is no reason to think it will start up again. And if it will be here in the future, there is no reason to think that the gift has only temporarily ceased. If prophecy ceased, and will be here during the tribulation, what's to say it will not come back before the tribulation, in an end times move of God that started around 1900?

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You are bringing red herrings into this subject when they are not needed. They have ceased. Period. We are speaking of this church age and not of any other age. The church will be raptured before the Tribulation starts. There is no church in the tribulation. There is no church in the Millennial Kingdom. Christ sets up his own kingdomm, a monarchy. The church is for this age only. The only "church" after the rapture, is the assembly gathered in heaven when all believers assemble together before God.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

If prophecy has ceased, it has ceased. Case closed. We are not speaking of ceasing and restarting. It has ceased. If you want to start a thread on the Tribulation period, then so be it. But that is not what this thread is about.
I say again: The Charismatic theology teaches that the Holy Spirit has been dead for 1900 years since tongues ceased at the end of the first century and then suddenly reappeared 1900 years later at the beginning of the 20th century.
DHK

Hi D28 Guy! Yes I did miss that post by Briguy. Thanks!!

For anyone else that is reading this. Here is my belief on tongues:

The gifts of the Spirit are all still here.

They are being used all the time.

They will be here until Jesus returns.

Jesus will return at the last trump.

The last trump will occur after the tribulation.

Then the 1000 year reign of Christ comes next.

Blessing to All,

Tam