Speaking in Tongues Continued

[Ray Berrian]

You said, 'When one of those millions of people come forward and describe a personal experience that lines up with and corresponds to an experience described in the Bible then we will have something to talk about.'

We are not talking about Tam and I as being the only ones who experienced this spiritual blessing. There are multi-millions of Assembly of God people around the world and in the isles of the sea who have had this profound experience.

Why does God give this experience to Tammy multiple times and me only once. Only God knows. For one thing He is sovereign in His ministry in our hearts and lives [I Cor. 12:11]. Why do I not speak in tongues--because He has not sovereignly given me this gift, at least at this point in time.

And if I might say respectfully to you, why have you never experienced something like this? First, because you deny the 'gifts of the Spirit.' Some even have attributed the things of the Spirit of God to Satan.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bible boy,

You sound like a cult in Lancaster Country, Pennsylvania called, "Jesus Only." Are you one of them. Apparently, you are trying to dismanel the Trinity to prove your erring view.

Go check with your theology professor about the Three Persons of the Godhead and see if he allows you to divide up God in three Persons.

That is why when Saul saw the light it was the Godhead who was approaching him as he was knocked or fell to the ground.

Saul only heard about the Lord who he was persecuting and had not yet learned the Trinitarian truth that you are in this passage of Acts nine are trying to deny. The entire Godhead was in the mysterious light.

The answer to your question about the Jesus Only thing: No, I am not one of them.

Whatever... that is your interpretation. I don't agree with it and neither does the actual text of Scripture when read in a literal, historical grammatical sense and understanding.

I am not dividing up the Godhead. My whole argument here is based on the manifestation of the persons of the Godhead. If I'm off about that please explain what in the world Jesus was talking about in Luke 24:49? Where was the Holy Spirit that Jesus had to send Him to the disciples if according to your view the Holy Spirit was manifest right there with Jesus. It makes no sense.

[ December 21, 2005, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

'One argument I have gotten is look at such and such church and see how it is growning. Sorry, but the Muslims are the fastest growing religion in the world. That doesn't mean they are the ones being blessed of God. Experience is not a valid test of truth.'

I think we thought you believed the Muslim faith was a false religion. I guess we should not take things for granted.

I am saying that within Christendom, many of the Assembly of God churches are growing quickly because they do not throw barriers in front of the Person of the Holy Spirit. They worship Him, the Son and the Father--the one God.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
'Furthermore, follow this line of reasoning out to its logical conclusion. If what you are saying is correct then we should expect to see people "falling out" every time God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit have interactions with (or draw near to) people throughout the Bible. However, it simply does not happen.'

Here again you are trying to place God in your mold and say that He has to minister in the venue that you lay down. God ministers to people in diverse ways even in bring people to conviction and convincing them of their sins.

In church you may feel a special closeness to the Lord on one Sunday and your best friend might not always experience what the Lord was doing in your life at that moment.

Remember He is sovereign in His ministrations [I Corinthians 12:11].

Nope... I am just following your line of reasoning out to its logical conclusion, and I am finding out that it does not work according to the Scripture.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-boy,

You said, 'Acts 9 does not say this same trifold manifestation occurred. It only says that the exalted Christ was there.'

So in John 10:31 when God says, 'I and My Father are one' that they were only one while Jesus said this in this chapter. After that They split and went their ways. Right?

Were you ever taught the Omnipresence of the Godhead that He is ever present everywhere at the same time. But this, in your view, is not true in Acts 9. Only Jesus showed up for this confrontation with Saul.

Are you also saying that since Jesus was on or near the earth with Saul, that He was absent from Heaven for a brief time?

Interesting personalized theology you are pushing. [II Peter 1:20][End Quote].

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
You said, 'When one of those millions of people come forward and describe a personal experience that lines up with and corresponds to an experience described in the Bible then we will have something to talk about.'

We are not talking about Tam and I as being the only ones who experienced this spiritual blessing. There are multi-millions of Assembly of God people around the world and in the isles of the sea who have had this profound experience.

Why does God give this experience to Tammy multiple times and me only once. Only God knows. For one thing He is sovereign in His ministry in our hearts and lives [I Cor. 12:11]. Why do I not speak in tongues--because He has not sovereignly given me this gift, at least at this point in time.

And if I might say respectfully to you, why have you never experienced something like this? First, because you deny the 'gifts of the Spirit.' Some even have attributed the things of the Spirit of God to Satan.

The subjective personal experiences of millions of people do not trump the ovjective truth of the final authority of God's Word. No matter how many people's experience you reference if it does not line up with and correspond to Scripture it is an appeal to inappropriate authority and make s your argument invalid.

 

[Ray Berrian]

You said, 'If I'm off about that please explain what in the world Jesus was talking about in Luke 24:49?'

It was only after Pentecost that the Holy Spirit filled the believing Christians. This was His sovereign choice.

I believe this though some may not. God is everywhere present at the same time, except in the hearts of the lost sinners. [End Quote].

 

[Ray Berrian]

You said, 'The subjective personal experiences of millions of people do not trump the ovjective truth of the final authority of God's Word. No matter how many people's experience you reference if it does not line up with and correspond to Scripture it is an appeal to inappropriate authority and make s your argument invalid.'

I agree 100% in your post above. Jesus words while on earth and through His Apostolate are the final authority.

The problem is you guys try to dismantel I Corinthians 12 & 14 and once you start doing this then we might move on to dislodge other parts of the Word of God. If we are in a desert in Africa we could discontine water baptism because we might not think it all that important. But, Scripture gives us no excuse to even thank that thought.

The 'gifts of the Spirit' will melt away at the Second Coming of Christ in keeping with what the Bible has to say.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bible-boy,

You said, 'Acts 9 does not say this same trifold manifestation occurred. It only says that the exalted Christ was there.'

So in John 10:31 when God says, 'I and My Father are one' that they were only one while Jesus said this in this chapter. After that They split and went their ways. Right?

Nope... they are always one in the sense that they are of the exact same essence and nature. However, each person of the Godhead does not always manifest Himself at the same time that one ro two of the other persons do.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Were you ever taught the Omnipresence of the Godhead that He is ever present everywhere at the same time. But this, in your view, is not true in Acts 9. Only Jesus showed up for this confrontation with Saul.

Nope, you are misrepresenting my view. One of the characteristics of the Triune God is His omnipresence. However, again all three of the persons of the Godhead don't always manifest themselves at the exact same time and place (see Luke 24:29).

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Are you also saying that since Jesus was on or near the earth with Saul, that He was absent from Heaven for a brief time?

Nope... again you are purposefully misrepresentling what I am saying. It is all about when and where the different persons of the Godhead choose to manifest their presence. How many times do I have to say this?

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Interesting personalized theology you are pushing. [II Peter 1:20].

Whatever... if you can't debate the issue and discuss the text of Scripture I guess you can always attack the person presenting the opposing view. BTW doing so is a personal attack and against the posting rules of the BB. You have been warned about this previously. If you continue you may lose your posting privilages.

[ December 21, 2005, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

I don't think any Christian who has studied would say that when they accepted Christ they did not also receive the Spirit of God and God the Father.

You cannot receive the one without the other Persons of the Godhead.

 

[Brian30755]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Bible-boy): John was taken spiritually (via a vision) and given a view of the exalted Christ, things in heaven, and things that will come to pass here on earth. No one alive on this earth today has had the exact same experience.
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Brian30721:
You know every experience that every person alive on this earth today has had? Are you God?
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Bible-Boy:
No I'm not God. So... who on earth today has been in the presence of the exalted Christ, saw His physical presence, heard His audible voice with their own physical ears? Anyone?

You said John was taken spiritually (via a vision) and given a view of the exalted Christ, things in heaven, and things that will come to pass here on earth.

So, if you are asking me who on earth today has had this experience, I can't answer you, because I am not God. How can you know that no one on this planet has had this experience (unless you are God)? You may think it's unlikely, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I could say "No one on this earth today has ever heard God speak to them", but how would I know for sure? I could say "No one on this earth today has ever been healed by the power of God", but how would I be sure.

By the way, how do you know that no one on earth today has ever heard the audible voice of God? Is it because you've never heard anyone say they've heard the audible voice of God? I can pretty much be sure that if someone said they heard God speak to them in an audible voice, you wouldn't believe them anyway.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
You said, 'If I'm off about that please explain what in the world Jesus was talking about in Luke 24:49?'

It was only after Pentecost that the Holy Spirit filled the believing Christians. This was His sovereign choice.

I believe this though some may not. God is everywhere present at the same time, except in the hearts of the lost sinners.

But you are not arguing when the Holy Spirit was given to indwell believing Christians. You are attempting to argue that because of the Triune Godhead that when the text of Acts 9 says that the exalted Christ was manifest with Saul it means that the Holy Spirit and God the Father were also manifest at the same time and place. Therefore, I am asking you to explain, if your view is correct, why the Holy Spirit was not already manifest with Jesus when He was present with the disciples? Your above answer does not address that question.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I don't think any Christian who has studied would say that when they accepted Christ they did not also receive the Spirit of God and God the Father.

You cannot receive the one without the other Persons of the Godhead.

It is the Holy Spirit who indwells believers according to the Scriptures. Is there a pasage of Scripture that says that God the Father indwells believers?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

As this thread has reached the 20th page, it will be closed no sooner than 12:00 P.M. EST today.