Speaking in Tongues Continued

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

You call 'speaking in tongues'---gibberish. No the only way you might begin to speak to that issue if you personally heard someone 'speaking in tongues' probably in a worship service. Be honest with us. Have you ever heard someone 'speaking in tongues' with an 'interpretation of tongues' directly afterward? We will anxiously await you honest answer.

Have I heard people speaking in tongues (so-called) in a service? Yes.
Have I heard them interpret? No. This is rare occurence in modern day Charismatic churches. Even if one did interpret you couldn't prove whether his interpretation was fake, imaginary, of the flesh, or even demonic. Whatever it is, it is not of God. Tongues have ceased. We know that because of what the Scripture says. God does not contradict himself.

If you ever really heard 'speaking . . . ' you would never mock it by calling something that the Lord God is doing through one of His saints--as 'gibberish.' The 'gift of tongues' is a distinct language but not a nationalistic language--meaning coming from any country.

I have heard the modern day "speaking in tongues". It is fleshly, carnal, not of God. It glorifies man not God. It causes divisions among believers. Those who have spoken in tongues look snobbishly down upon those who haven't thinking they have achieved a greater degree of spirituality. That is all of the flesh. It isn't of God. When a person opens their mind up and just "lets go", then they have just given entrance for the devil to enter in and have his way.

My best idea is that it is the language of Heaven, or as the Apostle Paul says in I Corinthians 13:1 it might be the language of the angels of God.

Either the language of the flesh or the devil, but certainly not of God. There are no heavenly languages this side of heaven. We live on the earth. The resurrection has not yet taken place. And you (and other Charismatics here) are certainly no angels!

One would think that since the Lord sends His angels/messengers to and from earth that God would be speaking or communicating with His created beings.

Not through the fraudulent so-called gift of tongues--something that ceased over 2,000 years ago. This movement was started by men who became the founders of false religions and cults such as William Branham and the Branhamites, Kathryn Khulman, The Kansas City Prophets (they were great charlatans), etc.
The Lord doesn't work through such frauds, and false prophets.

I am not saying that the 'gift of tongues' is the language of angels but it very well could be. Only the Lord knows what this distinct communication is all about, but from I Corinthians 12 and 14 we know it is of the Lord.

Paul never admitted to a language of angels. It was a figure of speech. Read the context. That expression didn't have anything to do with the gift of speaking in tongues. This modern-day "distinct communication" is fleshly and carnal, and sometimes demonic, and doesn't have anything to do with true worship.
From 1Cor.12-14, we know that there was a gift in the first century that was of God--a gift of speaking in foreign languages--a gift that is not present today. Isn't it odd how the Charismatics claim to have the gift of tongues and yet their missionaries still have to go to language school just like any other denominational missionary??

Some of these pastors 'floor me' as to how little they understand about the New Testament truths that are so apparent to Biblical expositors.
Berrian, Th.D.

Yes, I am puzzled in the same way.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

But I must say I agree with Ray, the people that preached in Acts 2 spoke one language, and the people heard it in their own native tongue, because it was traslated by the Holy Ghost!

Then you too disagree with the Bible.
How do you explain what the Bible plainly says:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'Either the language of the flesh or the devil, but certainly not of God.'

You certainly set yourself up as the alleged right hand man for interpreting, judging and hang man against what the Lord has said to His people in many denominations who experience this working of God.

My guess is the Holy Spirit is more active in their churches than yours. How many congregants do you have at a Sunday morning worship with your limited views of Scripture?

1,000; 400, 100, 55, or 90 people?

Always remember the Holy Spirit does not enter where He is not wanted. No hurt to you intended.

When a pastor sets up these 'hard and fast positions' he or she will turn off more people than he will attract to Jesus our Lord.

Assembly of God people are not controlled by demonic spirits, as you carelessly suggest. This is the height of _______.

 

[DHK]

Ray, I don't ask for your venom. In fact I have asked you and even warned you to stop. If you continue this way you will be forced to stop.

I have stated my position clearly with Scripture. The gifts have ceased. I have plainly shown that through the Scriptures, which position has not been refuted. Tongues was a sign gift. The sign has been removed. Its purpose has been accomplished. I have demonstrated that over and over again through the Scriptures. It is quite evident that, that being true, what goes on in other churches today, is not of God. If Biblical tongues have ceased, then modern tongues is not of God. That is not hard to figure out. If Biblical tongues have not ceased demonstrate it through Scripture, not personal attacks and innuendo.
DHK

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

You said, 'Either the language of the flesh or the devil, but certainly not of God.'

You certainly set yourself up as the alleged right hand man for interpreting, judging and hang man against what the Lord has said to His people in many denominations who experience this working of God.

How has the Lord said these things to His people? Are you referencing an objective truth recorded in Scripture, or a subjective personal experience?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Some people speak bad about men and women of God who are educated as I notice before on this topic.

In Philippians 3:4 especially the Apostle Paul has great confidence as to his studies under Gamaliel a doctor of the Temple.

He does admit that with all of his intellectual understanding he counts it as nothing, but rather focuses on Christ and his hope of Heaven.

Peter is only credited with writing two epistles and only had about a fourth grade education if he was fortunate. You recall he was a fisherman.

Paul wrote 13 N.T. books of the Bible and some think he may have written the Book of Hebrews which would make up 14 books of the N.T.

The Lord is not anti-education and we all can use more understanding and training even if we have a Ph.D. after our name.

God uses all Christians to spread His Gospel by way of witnessing if they yield to Him, but only those who are trained to see Scripture through Calvinistic and Arminian views can begin to get a grasp of what Jesus is really teaching His people as truth.

Now count up again how much of the N.T. God ordained the Apostle Paul to write down for our guidance and illumination.

Those who write on this board without any formal Biblical training, show it everytime they open their erring mouths. That is part of the reason why the church gets so messed up with all of these various alleged true interpretations of Scripture.

Notice, though the Roman Catholic Church teaches much error they allow for only one speaking voice to represent their branch of the church.

Protestants and other non-Protestants, in many cases, let a man study one or two years an then give him a church. This is foolish. Thank God some denominations set up a Board of Review to see that a man is not going to spread a lot of false doctrine and erring ideas about alleged truth.

There should be years of preparation for Christian ministry, while any Christian is free to tell what Christ has done in his or her life.

The gift of prophecy/preaching is given only to those people who really sense a call from the Lord on their life. For pastors study should be a daily way of life.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

I read your post; what is your point.

I guess you think my middle paragraph is all folly.

You ignored my question as to whether you ever heard the 'gift of tongues' in a worship service? If you never have heard this phenomenon, then you in no wise should describe it as 'gibberish.' That would be dishonest, right? I'll try AGAIN to look for your answer.

You are like the beagles we used to hunt with. I thought you were following my tracks, but you lost the trail. No offense intended.

I saw Jimmy Swaggart (spelling?) do it once on T.V. (just a few weeks before his tearful confession).

Basically, he informed the audience that we are going to speak in tongues now, and then he counted to three and started making sounds that I could not understand and was joined by people in the congregation (I can't remember if anyone interpeted or not).

Then I saw it once in an AG church in Manassas, VA. At this particular service no one interpreted what was being spoken.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Some people speak bad about men and women of God who are educated as I notice before on this topic.

In Philippians 3:4 especially the Apostle Paul has great confidence as to his studies under Gamaliel a doctor of the Temple.

He does admit that with all of his intellectual understanding he counts it as nothing, but rather focuses on Christ and his hope of Heaven.

Peter is only credited with writing two epistles and only had about a fourth grade education if he was fortunate. You recall he was a fisherman.

Paul wrote 13 N.T. books of the Bible and some think he may have written the Book of Hebrews which would make up 14 books of the N.T.

The Lord is not anti-education and we all can use more understanding and training even if we have a Ph.D. after our name.

God uses all Christians to spread His Gospel by way of witnessing if they yield to Him, but only those who are trained to see Scripture through Calvinistic and Arminian views can begin to get a grasp of what Jesus is really teaching His people as truth.

Now count up again how much of the N.T. God ordained the Apostle Paul to write down for our guidance and illumination.

Those who write on this board without any formal Biblical training, show it everytime they open their erring mouths. That is part of the reason why the church gets so messed up with all of these various alleged true interpretations of Scripture.

Notice, though the Roman Catholic Church teaches much error they allow for only one speaking voice to represent their branch of the church.

Protestants and other non-Protestants, in many cases, let a man study one or two years an then give him a church. This is foolish. Thank God some denominations set up a Board of Review to see that a man is not going to spread a lot of false doctrine and erring ideas about alleged truth.

There should be years of preparation for Christian ministry, while any Christian is free to tell what Christ has done in his or her life.

The gift of prophecy/preaching is given only to those people who really sense a call from the Lord on their life. For pastors study should be a daily way of life.

Who are you assuming does not have an advanced Christian education?

Personally, I have been a Christian (student of the Bible for nearly 28 years). I have a BA in Biblical Studies and the History of Ideas (double major), and I am in my thrid year of my Masters Degree studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-boy,

I am telling you objective truth from the N.T.; I have not personally 'spoken in tongues' but neither will I ignore what is written in N.T. Scripture. I was 'slain in the Spirit' and thereby know the mighty power of the Holy Spirit in meeting our needs at times in our lives.

Some call this not of God. Pastor Hinn, is a great Christian pastor and is a balanced man of God. When people fall under the power of the Spirit they are disarmed/disabled with a mighty blessing coming from the Lord.

Not every time they fall out under the power of the Spirit, are they healed of their sicknesses. But, from experience, I can honestly say that the Spirit of God is not limited by what some clergy say against Him. He is sovereign as to where and when he moves in churches and in individual lives.

I think if we can strive to respect each other as brethren we will better please the Lord our God. I should know by now at age 62 that it is infinitely better for the Spirit of God to show a person truth, than to get it second hand from another Christian including pastors.

Some a afraid, skeptical and unbelieving about various doctrines of the Bible. God give to each of us a 'measure of faith' and some never allow the Holy Spirit to enlighten them as to the deep things of God.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-boy,

Congratulations on being a formal student of the Word. I applaud your work.

I had no reference to any particular person on this board in the writing of my post.

Listening to other Christian's experiences in their faith life will go a long way in keeping from being set in our ways, theologically speaking. At the end of the day it is all a matter of interpretation.

 

[D28guy]

Ray Berrian,

You said...

"It really doesn't matter. My guess is if some one came into your congregation and spoke in tongues with an appropriate 'interpretation of tongues' you might even stop this phenemenon that was happening. Am I right?"

I was sitting in a discipleship training class of a Southern Baptist Church a few years ago.

(I just say that to be accurate, not to slam the SBC. I have been involved with other SBC Churchs that were fantastic. Also, this just have easily could have been a United Methodist, Presbyterian USA, or Lutheran or any number churchs.)

The subject of tongues came up in conversation and the pastor said that if anyone began praising God in an unknown tongue during one of the their worship services he would have some of the men take them out. And then he said if someone started speaking in tongues right there in that class he would jump right through the window.

Pretty quickly after that I completly broke with that church. I didnt make a stink of it or anything...although I considered talking with the pastor privately...I simply disappeared.

What an absolutely mind bogglingly tragic and heartbreaking thing that is...considering we are talking about one of Gods beautiful "Gifts of the Holy Spirit"!

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Rat Berrian said...

"Those who 'get out to other churches' have experienced this 21st century event and have found that the interpretation is always uplifting in ones spirit and the message always praises the Lord especially in the expressions that He will always stand with His people and will love them. Ask Tam if I am telling the truth.

Or ask me.

He's telling the truth.

We have our Lords gift of tongues in evidence in our fellowship, and it follows the biblical guidelines.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Bible-boy]

Okay,

but reading through the discussion here I see DHK making a valid and sound argument based upon the objective Word of God. The Word is sure.

When we base our doctrinal beliefs on something other than the Word we are prone to err. This is particularly true when we build doctrinal beliefs on subjective feelings and experiences. Remember the enemy can just as likely cause you have a feeling or experience. If our experience and feelings do not fall in line with the objective truth of the Word it is our experiences and feelings that we must reject.

With reference to Benny Hinn didn't he prophesy that Jesus would appear on stage with him at his crusade in Nairobi, Kenya? Did that happen? If he said such a thing and it did not happen does that make him a false prophet?

 

[Ray Berrian]

I was sorry to hear about the failure of Pastor Jimmy Swaggart. Each of us as Christian have our own temptations so our attitude must be as Galatians 6:1 tells us to be toward other Christians who fail the Lord.

Even without 'tongues' he is a great preacher in my estimation.

If he did what you said, and I at times have heard him go off into his pray language, this is clearly the wrong place to do this in church service. It confuses even some Christians. If there were an 'interpretation of tongues' that would be within the will a good pleasure of the Lord.

Every demonination has had men of God who had eyes for their pianist or organist. This is not good for the credibility of the Christian church.

I always look at it this way. The Lord has given me a couple or possibly three gifts to uplift His holy Name, Person and glory. I am more than sure that there are many out in the Christian world who have more 'gifts coming from the Spirit of God' than He has given me. But, I celebrate those who have more influence in the Christian world than I do. I am a black sheep but nevertheless a sheep of His flock.

Every victory we can contribute to the Lord whether we are a Peter or Paul is to be celebrated because in this Christ is elevated in the world as the only Savior from sin Who gives everlasting life.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bible-boy,

Congratulations on being a formal student of the Word. I applaud your work.

Thank you for the encouragement.

I had no reference to any particular person on this board in the writing of my post.

As a moderator here on the BB I would encourage you not to make a generalization like that in your presentation of your arguments. It comes off as an attack against the person rather than as debating an issue.

Listening to other Christian's experiences in their faith life will go a long way in keeping from being set in our ways, theologically speaking.

I agree so long as what they say falls in line with the clear objective teaching of the Scripture. If not it must be rejected as error. We must pass our feelings and experiences through the sieve of the Word and not try to force the Word through the sieve of our feelings and experiences. If we do that (pass the Word through our feelings and experiences) we set ourselfs up as an authority over the Word. The Word is and must always be our final authority.

At the end of the day it is all a matter of interpretation.

I agree. Furthermore, I maintain that there is only one correct interpretation of the Word. That correct interpretation of the Word is the interpretation and meaning that the author of Scripture intended when He inspired it to be written. Our job is to expose (preach) that correct Holy Spirit inspired interpretation through the use of sound hermeneutics and solid exegesis of the text of Scripture.

[ December 17, 2005, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Those people who are 'slain in the Spirit' know that the evil one does not bless us in the name of the Spirit of God. In my own case, if felt like the Lord poured liquid Divine love in my soul.

I am not asking other people to believe me. They are welcomed to stay in their unbelief in the promises of God for those who are open to His great blessings.

I don't know if Tam has ever experienced such a beautiful experience coming from the Lord. I hope she reads this post and enlightens us to her experiences of faith coming from the Lord.

For me, this only happened once and I have had a spiritual dream and a vision of the evil one or one of his demons.

I think it was DHK who asked me long ago if I can heal the sick. No, the Lord heals the sick but I have anointed people will oil who were cancer patients and they were healed. Another time my first born son was dying and I called for my parents to come to my pastorate because he was dying. I anointed him with oil as James 5 indicates that Elder should do for their flock and the Lord healed him completely. I was embarrassed when my parents arrived at the parsonage five hours after my phone call, and he was recovering very quickly.

I have no powers to heal but I know how to pray fervently for those who are in trouble. Though a black sheep, He still hears my prayers.

I sound arrogant at times, but in my heart the Lord knows I place my face in the dust every night because it is only by His mercy and grace that I will be saved.

I sound authorative because I understand the Word of God, but this is light years away from being a proud man of God.

Ask my wife; she and the Lord keep me humble.

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

As you may have seen, in spite of our differences on this topic, on this (or another thread) I mentioned Paul as an example of someone who was hesitant to flaunt his credentials. I then commented on, and complimented you for, your unwillingness to flaunt your training and studies...comparing you to Paul.

And I meant that sincerely.

But something has just come to me in reading through the new...to me...posts on this thread tonight.

Paul of course, as you know, was staunchly...violently...set against the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his followers. Even to the point of hunting down christians to have them killed.

Until a glorious and miraculous encounter with the resurrected Lord on the road to Damascus.

In light of that, and your vehement anti-tongues stance, I believe that you are a prime candidate...and I believe it will happen...to one day in the future be in a service somewhere praising God in your native language, when out of Gods heaven...and to your complete surprise...a beautiful heavenly language of praise lifts to God from your heart and through your vocal chords and mouth.

I dont know why..(although I have some ideas)..but I believe that it is going to happen one day.

Just something to think about.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK,

As you may have seen, in spite of our differences on this topic, on this (or another thread) I mentioned Paul as an example of someone who was hesitant to flaunt his credentials. I then commented on, and complimented you for, your unwillingness to flaunt your training and studies...comparing you to Paul.

And I meant that sincerely.

But something has just come to me in reading through the new...to me...posts on this thread tonight.

Paul of course, as you know, was staunchly...violently...set against the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his followers. Even to the point of hunting down christians to have them killed.

Until a glorious and miraculous encounter with the resurrected Lord on the road to Damascus.

In light of that, and your vehement anti-tongues stance, I believe that you are a prime candidate...and I believe it will happen...to one day in the future be in a service somewhere praising God in your native language, when out of Gods heaven...and to your complete surprise...a beautiful heavenly language of praise lifts to God from your heart and through your vocal chords and mouth.

I dont know why..(although I have some ideas)..but I believe that it is going to happen one day.

Just something to think about.

Grace and peace,

Mike

Hello Mike,

If we establish some way to monitor DHK for the rest of his natural life and what you have stated does not happen does that mean that you have been a false prophet? If so, are we to stone you as the O.T. says?

 

[DHK]

Thank you for the compliment, and the spirit in which you post Mike. I appreciate your contributions to the discussions, even though we may be on the opposite sides of the fence on this issue.

Perhaps I will speak in a heavenly language when I get to heaven. That would be the obvious place for one to do so, wouldn't it?

I believe in the Biblical gift of tongues as it was used in the New Testament, and often have wished that God would have given it to me on the mission field, so I wouldn't have had to learn a foreign language. But, alas, that is not the way that God works today. I believe that is what Paul meant when he said to the Corinthians "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than ye all." He had need of them more than they did. He traveled more than they did, and had to use foreign languages in the different nations to which God sent him during his missionary travels. Therein was the purpose of tongues. It was that the church might be edified--for all the believers, even those present that might speak another language. But it was probably translated back into Hebrew as a sign to the Jews. The Jews were scattered all throughout the known world at that time.
DHK

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Those people who are 'slain in the Spirit' know that the evil one does not bless us in the name of the Spirit of God.

How do you know that in an objective manner (from the Word)? Who said that the blessed experience was in the name of the Spirit of God? Is there a corresponding experience documented in the text of Scripture? If not, how do we know what really took place?

Also please consider the fact that the enemy is a master deceiver. If what we experience can not be validated by the objective truth of the Word there is a problem with our understanding of the experience (not the other way around).

[ December 17, 2005, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]