Cessationism or Continuationism

You are simply parroting their response to proven false prophets among them - ALL their leading well known prophets have been proven to be false prophets - every single one of them. May I ask you "can a clean thing come out of an unclean, NOT ONE". What kind of spirit empowers such false prophets and leads people to follow them???

Benny Hinn was not rejected by ANY ASPECT of Pentecostalism in his hey day as they all bought his books. I bought his books and studied them very intently. Benny Hinn was the one UNIFYING person among Pentecostals, Charismatics, and latter rain right up until he made such obvious false prophecies and then only SOME renounced him.

Of course the power is from Satan as is proved by their FALSE DOCTRINE! But Satan has REAL power not FAKE power.

Using Bibical language means NOTHING! It is the MEANING applied to Biblical languague that determines truth from error. The overwhelming vast majority of tongue speakers denounce grace (its meaning) and embrace (works = which they call grace). All who reject eternal life = meaning life presently in possession that does not end actually beleive in justification by works even though they deny it and call what they believe "grace."

 

Paul said those who speak in tongues edified themselves only, unless they interpret, so others can understand and be edified. This means first century tongue speakers understood what they were saying and were edified. This proves today's claims to the gifts are fraudulent because nobody claiming the gift of tongues knows what they are saying.

 

I agree. I believe several prophecies had both an immediate application and future. I will review the larger context later today.

Whether human languages or not, those who exercised the gift of tongues spoke supernaturally in a language they did not know. I don't understand how the Corinthians abused the gifts. However, I do see how these passages are badly misinterpreted by many (but not all) Charismatics.

Thanks for explaining. I don't think that is the proper application regarding the Gifts of the Spirit, though. They are still for signs, some for believers and others for non-believers.

That doesn't mean there is a mandate for the laying on of hands to receive the gifts, nor is there a mandate for an apostle to impart the gifts.

I must disagree with your interpretation, Sir. I get your point about completing the Canon, but it doesn't apply in the context of the gifts of the Spirit.

While much (maybe most) of what we have today is not Biblical tongues, there are some that do use this gift (as well as the others) as the Bible directs. I've personally witnessed tongues (with interpretations), prophecies, healings, and I believe it's real. Unfortunately, I can't point to any specific events, as it's been many years since I've attended a Charismatic church. (My wife and I were invited to the Southern Baptist Church that we attend about 5 years ago, and we fell in love with it.) I've also witnessed the false way that is so common, and that only hurts our Christian witness.

You are absolutely right that the Pentecost and Latter Day Rain movements have a lot of false prophets. I'm guessing that the early Pentecostal movement must have begun in 1905 from your response. I can only answer to what I understand Scripture to teach, and to what I've personally witnessed.

 

According to two different tongues speakers I have known who experience tongues occasionally in private prayer, they know what they are praying -- although not always expressed in rational thought, but in emotional utterance -- although they do not understand the words they are expressing with their lips. Both persons, from very different backgrounds, had quite similar experiences.

On July 4, 1987, I was part of an interdenominational evangelism team that was doing outreach to all of the July 4 revelers on Stewart Beach on Galveston Island. As part of our ministry, we had a first aid tent and passed out water so that people would not get dehydrated. I left the beachfront with a friend to fetch another large cooler of chilled bottled water from our church bus, and on the long walk back, we walked by a bus that was being used for prayer. Standing outside the bus was a woman praying in tongues. I made some sort of unkind comment about her tongue-speaking to my friend, who was listening to her quite thoughtfully. A moment later, he asked if I could understand what she was saying. I told him that I obviously couldn't, she was babbling. He said that he could. He could hear her sounds, but also hear words in English at the same time. He said, "She is praying specifically for ______ (a man we knew who helped organize the event) because he is confronting a demonized man right now."

That sounded very strange to me. We had seen lots of drunkeness and bad behavior, but nothing like a demonized person. I said, "That's weird." About three or four minutes later, we finally got to the first aid tent with the heavy cooler and _______ was confronting a man with 666 tattooed on his forehead and hand, who had been screaming blasphemies at the group. _______ had commanded him to silence in the name of Jesus, but the man didn't want to hear the gospel. _______ ordered the man in the name of Jesus to leave us alone, and the man left.

(1) Neither one of us had seen this man before, and the whole thing apparently started about 5 minutes after we left.
(2) I heard nothing but babbling when the woman was praying. My only source of information was my friend who apparently interpreted the woman's prayer, who also did not know about the man and who had never experienced the gift of interpreting tongues and did not practice speaking in tongues. In fact, he thought tongues-speaking was quite strange. Moreover, in the next 10 years of being in close association with him, he did not dabble in speaking in tongues, nor associate with many charismatic Christians.

I do not speak in tongues, nor wish to speak in tongues. I don't encourage people to speak in tongues. I also don't think that most modern expressions of tongue-speaking are biblical or valid. If it is done in a public meeting, it needs to be interpreted, and the congregation can determine for themselves if the interpretation is from God.

Yet, based on the scripture and based on a few experiences I have had, as well as similar experiences I have heard from a few trusted and mature Christians, I do not discount any of the "sign gifts" out of hand. God may indeed use them from time to time for His purposes.

 

Sad but true. Still, this only shows that a great many in the Pentecostal / Charismatic movement have been duped. It doesn't prove that the gifts of the Spirit are still for today and will continue until Christ comes again.

Paul didn't specify whether the false prophets would have real or fake power. We only know that they have the power to deceive.

I'm not talking about Biblical language, but teaching according to what the Bible teaches in the manner prescribed in Scripture. I know that there are those who teach that speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation, which is heresy. I also know that there are many who take it just as Scripture teaches - these are gifts, but not everyone gets them. They have nothing to do with being born again.

 

Jesus was full of the Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE and did not speak in tongues and did not have a prayer tongue proving it has nothing to do with spirituality. You are just simply rejecting the evidence against the modern day tongue movement. That is your privilege! I have been part of it, been an avid student of it over 45 years and "tongues" today are nothing more or less than the same kind of tongues practiced by the twelve MORMON apostles.

 

I've witnessed tongues along with interpretations in different Charismatic churches that I've attended. I believe it's relevant today, but badly misinterpreted by a lot of Pentecostals.

 

The Bible doesn't tell us whether Jesus ever spoke in tongues. Still, why would the Son of God need to? Mormon apostles claim to speak in tongues? Is this a modern thing, or something that Joseph Smith and the other early LDS leaders taught?

 

Why would he teach his disciples to pray if tongues were not the more spiritual way to pray? Tongues has a explicit Biblical purpose that is spelled out (1 Cor. 14:20-22; Isa. 28) for a specific people ("this people") and it is explicitly said to be NOT FOR BELIEVERS (1 Cor. 14:21) and Paul refused to speak in tongues in the church (1 Cor. 14:19) but spoke in tongues more than ALL of them combined because he did it according to its Biblical design and purpose - missionary gift TO LOST JEWS.

Pentecostalism rejects all of this; demands it is for believers, for SELF-edification, for use in the church, etc. God is not the author of their confusion and disobedience to God's Word. They do not speak in Biblical tongues but in ecstatic utterances. NNE IN SCRIPTURE SOUGHT to speak in tongues but it was GIVEN and that is why it was not given to all Christians (1 Cor. 12:29-30).

No, it is not a modern thing but a long standing claim and PRACTICE by mormon apostles. Ecstatic utterances can be found universally among all religions and at Corinth among the false religions existing in that day and who practiced it in the church at Corinth.

 

I hadn't realized it before, but you are right in that Pentecostalism demands tongues for self-edification. Thanks for pointing that out. Paul tells us to seek the gifts, and he didn't exclude any of them. That is one of the reasons I believe it is available for all Christians.

I didn't know that about Mormons. Thank you. I'm not convinced either way regarding whether those in Corinth practiced ecstatic utterances in the way you've described. However, I concede that it makes sense as a reason for why Paul felt it necessary to address this issue.

 

1 Corinthians 12:31 can be translated in the imperative mode (as in the KJV) or in the indicative mode. Why would Paul tell them to seek spiritual gifts after telling them that the Spirit gives them to whom he wills (1 Cor. 12:7-11) and He does not give all gifts to all (1 Cor. 12:29-30)? I believe it is more properly interpeted as the indicative mode - this is what you are doing - seeking gifts but let me show you something better to seek - love - ch. 13.

After showing them what they should be seeking rather than spiritual gifts then he directs them to seek spiritual gifts in keeping with love (ch. 14:1) thus in keeping with the Spirit's guideliness and principle. So, I do not believe he is commanding them to seek spiritual gifts as THAT WAS THEIR PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

The Greek form for the imerpative and indicative is the same with this verb so it is a translation decision.

 

What would be the purpose of Jesus speaking in tongues? He ministered in a relatively small area. Moreover, He seemed to be able to communicate without issue to everyone He spoke with. The sign gifts that were broadly distributed are part of the new covenant.

Two issues here:
(1) Jesus teaches and communicates through the Spirit (Acts 1:2; John 16:12-14).
(2) Praying in tongues is simply not a "more spiritual way to pray." It is simply another way to pray, where the Spirit gives the one in prayer more freedom to express what is otherwise inexpressible for that person.

 

Did he not set himself as the pattern for you to follow? "Christlike"??? Furthermore, Paul does not support praying in tongues but is actually condemning it in the context of 1 Cor. 14:15-19.

Precisely, so why would not Jesus communicate with his Father when he prayed "in the Spirit" if praying in tongues is praying "in the Spirit" as all Pentecostals claim and defend it as such?

I have read nearly every article and book published by the primary defenders of the early tongue movement (1918-1990's) and all of them without exception claim that praying in tongues is praying "in the Spirit" and that is why it is superior to normal prayer.

 

I don't deny that some tongue speaking is supernatural. Satan's kingdom is divided against itself with regard to APPEARANCE and that makes it more deceptive. The JW's are opposed to the Mormon's, the SDA are opposed to both, etc., etc.

I started out in that stuff. You find me just one example of a tongue speaker who just started speaking in tongues (really ecstatic utterances) for the first time without being emotionally worked up into an altered state of consciousness? Later, they can just mentally place themselves into a mindset to speak instantly, but that comes later.

I know of several cases where other people could understand a tongue speaker and yet the one speaking in tongues was an absolute heretic when it came to orthodoxy. Satan has power to imitate all the spiritual gifts (2 Thes. 2:9; Mt. 24:24-25).

 

In the KJV, 1 Cor 12:31 is also a rare instance where we are encouraged to "covet" something, although most other translations say "earnestly desire". I think that is more accurate. I agree completely that 14:1 is instruction to seek spiritual gifts in keeping with love. Without love, the gifts are easily misused. That is the root of the problem with many who place a higher value on the gifts than on love.

 

It's all phony. If it was for today all churches would have it spontaneously as they did in Acts. Today they coach each other and "learn how". Furthermore, as I pointed out, original tongue speakers knew what they were saying but others did not, unless someone interpreted.

 

To be sure, a great deal is phony, where they have to get all worked up. I don't believe it's all phony, but it's rare to find a true use of tongues (or any of the other gifts).

 

These are not genuine gifts, long expired. Only the Apostles could impart them through their hands other than the two outpourings. There are no apostles to impart them since those times.

 

It's ALL phony....be careful.

 

Both Christ and Paul predicted a latter day apostolic like signs and wonders movement (Mt. 24:24-25; 2 Thes.2:9) where they used the very same Greek terms that characterized apostolic signs and wonders. That is why Jesus said it would be so DECEPTIVE.

How do we distinguish between this predicted demonic empowered form of apostolic Christianity and Biblical apostolic Christianity? Very simple:

1. Miracles are bestowed by God to CONFIRM the TRUTH of His servants message - apostate miracle workers teach false doctrine with regard to salvation, the nature of God, the person of Christ and other essential truths.

2. Apostolic miralce workers with signs and wonders will match the Biblical characterization, design and purpose and orderly use of such whereas apostate will not.

3. Their prophets will be able to pass all seven Biblical tests of a true prophet of God but the apostate signs and wonders prophets will always fail one or more these tests.

4. Apostolic gifts were imparted by apostles and apostles ceased in the first century as Paul said he was the "last" of all the Apostles. He used the word "eschatos" which means last with none to follow as in "last" Adam with no Adam's to follow and "last" trump with no trumps to follow.

The "first wave" and "second wave" and "early" and "latter rain" Pentecost/charismatic movements fail all three above. Every MAJOR well known prophet that has ever existed among them failed one or more of the Biblical tests of a prophet. The movement and prophetic leadership are characterized by major false doctrines. None of them abide by the characterizations, design, purpose and orderly use of Biblical gifts.