Water and Blood

Paul did not tell the jailor when asked 'what must I do to be saved?' to 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized and you will be saved'.

It is true we see the jailor being baptized afterword, but Paul did not tell him it was a prerequisite.

Romans 10:9,10,13 do not tack on baptism as a prerequisite for salvation. All that is needed for salvation there is believing with the heart, and confessing with the tongue.

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Paul did not tell the jailor when asked 'what must I do to be saved?' to 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized and you will be saved'.

It is true we see the jailor being baptized afterword, but Paul did not tell him it was a prerequisite.

Romans 10:9,10,13 do not tack on baptism as a prerequisite for salvation. All that is needed for salvation there is believing with the heart, and confessing with the tongue.

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Let's read the passage.

Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and (BG)your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34 And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

Let's notice a couple of things. The first response was he needed to believe in the Lord Jesus and he would be saved.

Believe what? Did he know enough right then? No, because Paul and Silas "spoke the word of the Lord to him".

Did that include instructions to be baptized? Most certainly it did because he was baptized immediately. Now imagine if you spoke the word of the Lord to someone and did not mention baptism, then tried to baptize that person, they would not submit to that.

Let's look at some other examples where Christ was preached. "Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them." (Acts 8:5) and they "believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike"(vs12).

Philip preached the good news (gospel) about Jesus and when they believed it, they were baptized. The only way they would submit to baptism is if the preaching of the gospel contained instructions for water baptism. Can you imagine trying to baptize a group of people that had never even heard of baptism.

Also, Acts 8:35-26, "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

This was a logical question that Philip answered. If you believe, you may. The eunuch then professed his belief about Jesus and was baptized. Therefore, the preaching of Jesus does include instructions for water baptism, clearly seen in this example. If it did not, then the God chosen preacher would have corrected him. Is that what happened? No, Philip baptized him and he went on his way rejoicing.

The jailer also rejoiced. When? When he was described as "having believed". Ok, Paul says believe and you will be saved, then later we see he was rejoicing having believed. What took place in between these two events? They spoke the word of the Lord to him and he was baptized, therefore he could rejoice, "having believed".

He could rejoice because he believed and was baptized, therefore he was in a saved condition, just as our Lord said in Mark 16:16.

Goodness, this topic is moving so fast. I'm gonna let y'all duke out Mark 16:16 et al (I just used "y'all duke out" and "et al" in the same sentence...).

There is no doubt that the statement Jesus made to the Thief was made under the old law. About that there is no doubt. Jesus could not have made that statement after His death. There is no record of any further conversation between the two. What is so hard to understand about this?

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There is nothing hard to understand about when the statement was made. You seem to have missed that the statement was not applied until the New Covenant.

The promise was given completely before the new covenant was in full affect.

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So the New Covenant was not in full effect after the death of Jesus? That's news to me.

See, if the thief lived under the New Covenant and died under the New Covenant without needing baptism, then everybody else who was righteous (or made so) under the Old Covenant and lived under the New Covenant was in the same situation; none of them needed baptism, either. Yet, then we're at a loss to explain, in your theological framework, the rebaptism of John's disciples, among other things. Furthermore, what about people like the adulteress of John 8? Did she need to be baptized after Jesus died? She had been forgiven, too, you know.

The simple fact of the matter is that the thief was alive in the New Covenant, which began at Jesus' death. He died under the New Covenant. He did not require baptism. Therefore, there are ONLY two possibilities, as I listed previously:

One--Baptism was not required under the New Covenant.

Two--Jesus' promise violated His own Covenant.

I've not seen that objection answered. The only "answer" I have seen is that the promise was given under the Old Covenant. Yet, the promise was not applied until the New, and so the application of the promise of Jesus there either had to violate the Covenant or it showed that baptism is not required in the Covenant.

On a side note, how do you mesh "Well, the thief on the cross didn't need baptism because he was under the Old Covenant!" with "Nicodemus needed baptism based on John 3:5!"?

Michael

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Romans 10:9,10,13 do not tack on baptism as a prerequisite for salvation. All that is needed for salvation there is believing with the heart, and confessing with the tongue.

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Do you really think that we can read one verse or passage and exclude all other verses that talk about salvation?

Using this logic, repentance is un-necessary and unessential. This verse does not mention repentance therefore, one does not need to change the way they are living, they can contiue in sin that grace may abound.

Is that what you are saying?

What should we do with the other verses that mention salvation? Ignore them? Cut them out of the bible? Mark through them with black ink?

What do we do with those other verses????

Don't make the mistake of holding on to one verse and letting go of all the others. To have the truth, we need all God has said on the subject. We need to hold on to one verse without letting go of the others.

It is a dangerous place to be when we ignore scripture. Look at where your logic trail can lead. Where did the Jailer confess? Confession must not be essential.

Where were those in Acts 2:37-38 told to believe? Belief must be unessential for salvation.

Where was the eunuch told to repent? Repentance must be unessential for salvation.

You can exclude everything, (belief, repentance, confession and baptism) using your logic.

However, if you include everything from every example and instruction, you will end up with a complete picture.

Acts 2:37-38 - Repentance and baptism
Acts 8:35-26 - Belief, confession of that belief, and baptism
Acts 16:312-34 - Belief and baptism
Rom 10:9-10 - believing and confession
I Pet 3:21 - Baptism
Acts 22:16 - baptism
Gal 3:26-27 - Faith/baptism

Lets look at all that God says about the subject and accept it all.

mman,

You saying that the thief on the cross was still under the old covenant.

Well, my question is, what about a person who is in the hopsital is dying to neat death, if suppose a person believes in Jesus Christ with repent of sins, but no time or too weak to be baptized. Once a person accepted Christ at death bed few minutes before died. Is a person go to heaven without being baptized?

Please ponder it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

mman,

Your illogical twisting of God's Word does not leave hope for the person who is on his or her deathbed who truly is repentent of their sins, and truly cries out to the Lord for forgiveness of sin.

Baptism is only an outward confession of an inward faith in Christ Jesus.

Just the fact that the jailor asked 'What must I do to be saved?' shows he was repentent.

The eunuch? He was not told by Phillip that he had to be baptized, only that if He was a believer Phillip would baptize Him.

Jesus said in John 3:16 He that believeth would have everlasting life. Nowhere there do I see 'he that believeth and is baptized.

Yes, we must rightly divide the Word of Truth, but we must make sure we are rightly dividing.

When Paul said 'Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved', he did not include 'and is baptized.'

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone,in Christ alone.

Originally posted by Snitzelhoff:
Goodness, this topic is moving so fast. I'm gonna let y'all duke out Mark 16:16 et al (I just used "y'all duke out" and "et al" in the same sentence...).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
There is no doubt that the statement Jesus made to the Thief was made under the old law. About that there is no doubt. Jesus could not have made that statement after His death. There is no record of any further conversation between the two. What is so hard to understand about this?

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There is nothing hard to understand about when the statement was made. You seem to have missed that the statement was not applied until the New Covenant.

The promise was given completely before the new covenant was in full affect.

Click to expand...

So the New Covenant was not in full effect after the death of Jesus? That's news to me.

See, if the thief lived under the New Covenant and died under the New Covenant without needing baptism, then everybody else who was righteous (or made so) under the Old Covenant and lived under the New Covenant was in the same situation; none of them needed baptism, either. Yet, then we're at a loss to explain, in your theological framework, the rebaptism of John's disciples, among other things. Furthermore, what about people like the adulteress of John 8? Did she need to be baptized after Jesus died? She had been forgiven, too, you know.

The simple fact of the matter is that the thief was alive in the New Covenant, which began at Jesus' death. He died under the New Covenant. He did not require baptism. Therefore, there are ONLY two possibilities, as I listed previously:

One--Baptism was not required under the New Covenant.

Two--Jesus' promise violated His own Covenant.

I've not seen that objection answered. The only "answer" I have seen is that the promise was given under the Old Covenant. Yet, the promise was not applied until the New, and so the application of the promise of Jesus there either had to violate the Covenant or it showed that baptism is not required in the Covenant.

On a side note, how do you mesh "Well, the thief on the cross didn't need baptism because he was under the Old Covenant!" with "Nicodemus needed baptism based on John 3:5!"?

Michael </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus told Nicodemus how the enter the kindgom/church. The church was not established until after the death of Jesus, in Acts 2.

In Acts 2, it is clear how they entered the church. If you read vs 38,41, and 47, the Lord added them when they were baptized/saved.

That is in agreement with what he told Nicodemus that he needed to be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom. He could not enter the instant Jesus made the statement, because it had not yet been established.

Neither could the thief. Furthermore, we don't know whether he was baptized under John's baptism or not.

One thing we know for certain, after Jesus death and resurrection, he told his Apostles to go preach the gospel to every creature/nation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned."

If you had been standing there, would you have corrected Jesus and said, "That's not true. Remember the thief crucified next to you. You didn't tell him to be baptized and he was saved."

That is certainly not a defense I would like to use when I stand before the judgment seat of Christ and say, I know you said we would be judged by your words and I know you said, "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but I didn't think you really mean it, because that's not what you told the thief.

Either Jesus didn't mean what He said, was kidding, was wrong or He meant what he said. I chose the believe the latter, that He meant what he said.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Baptism as a picture of the inward work?

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The NIV renders it this way:
1Pe 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[5] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I thought Water was the Baptism...

So, I maintain that Water Imersion baptism is a physical expression of the inward work in a man's heart...

It portrays that the person is publicly confessing that he belongs to Jesus. That his old life is buried, and that he has been symbolically raised in newness of life as a new creation...

We make a big show of having converts come forward and confess Christ publicly at an altar...

The thief *was* promised Paradise...

When was he baptized?

Or, did Jesus mislead him into thinking he'd make heaven?

Mike Sr.

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
mman,

You saying that the thief on the cross was still under the old covenant.

Well, my question is, what about a person who is in the hopsital is dying to neat death, if suppose a person believes in Jesus Christ with repent of sins, but no time or too weak to be baptized. Once a person accepted Christ at death bed few minutes before died. Is a person go to heaven without being baptized?

Please ponder it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

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I don't make the rules and I am thankful I am not the judge.

What about the person who dies just before they believe? That person is lying on their death bed and they are waiting for someone to share the good news about Jesus with them. Someone who is about to share that good news walks into the room and the person dies before he hears the first word. If they had lived, they would have believed, but they died before they believed. Surely you are not saying that belief is required. Your beliefs do not allow for God to save the non-believer.

We can all come up with "what-ifs". God gives us many chances to obey Him. We have his divine word at our fingertips. I truly believe that anyone seeking truth will find it.

As for your scenario, I can only go on what the scriptures say.

I know that it is impossible for God to lie (Heb 6:18).

I know that salvation is in Christ (II Tim 2:10)

I can only find one way into Christ and that is through baptism (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27).

I do not see an exception clause in Mark 16:16.

Again, God is the judge, and His judgments are righteous.

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
mman,

Your illogical twisting of God's Word does not leave hope for the person who is on his or her deathbed who truly is repentent of their sins, and truly cries out to the Lord for forgiveness of sin.

Baptism is only an outward confession of an inward faith in Christ Jesus.

Just the fact that the jailor asked 'What must I do to be saved?' shows he was repentent.

The eunuch? He was not told by Phillip that he had to be baptized, only that if He was a believer Phillip would baptize Him.

Jesus said in John 3:16 He that believeth would have everlasting life. Nowhere there do I see 'he that believeth and is baptized.

Yes, we must rightly divide the Word of Truth, but we must make sure we are rightly dividing.

When Paul said 'Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved', he did not include 'and is baptized.'

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone,in Christ alone.

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So you don't believe Mark 16:16?

We have an actual example of someone calling on the name of the Lord - Read Acts 22:16. How did he call on the name of the Lord?

Baptism is for the remission of sins - Acts 2:38
Baptism washes away sins - Acts 22:16

Nowhere is baptism described as an outward confession of an inward faith.

I certainly do believe Mark 16:16. But I do not believe that it is speaking of water baptism there.

John the Baptist did indeed baptize with water but He that came after him baptized with the Holy Ghost and with Fire.

What happened on the day of Pentecost? They were baptized with the Holy Ghost and with Fire.

Was there a water baptism too? Yes, I am sure there was. But it was not to save them. For they had already been saved by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ and in His name.

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Baptism as a picture of the inward work?

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The NIV renders it this way:
1Pe 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[5] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I thought Water was the Baptism...

So, I maintain that Water Imersion baptism is a physical expression of the inward work in a man's heart...

It portrays that the person is publicly confessing that he belongs to Jesus. That his old life is buried, and that he has been symbolically raised in newness of life as a new creation...

We make a big show of having converts come forward and confess Christ publicly at an altar...

The thief *was* promised Paradise...

When was he baptized?

Or, did Jesus mislead him into thinking he'd make heaven?

Mike Sr.

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The thief was not mislead. It is truly hard for me to fathom the desperate nature in which so many hold on to the "thief on the cross", yet deny the instructions given by the Lord and His inspired apostles.

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Either you accept this or you reject it.

John 12:48, "The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day."

Peter told those on the day of Pentecost, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) - Either you accept this or you reject it.

Saul was told to "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins". - Either you accept this or reject it.

Baptism puts us into Christ. You cannot find another way INTO Christ.

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
I certainly do believe Mark 16:16. But I do not believe that it is speaking of water baptism there.

John the Baptist did indeed baptize with water but He that came after him baptized with the Holy Ghost and with Fire.

What happened on the day of Pentecost? They were baptized with the Holy Ghost and with Fire.

Was there a water baptism too? Yes, I am sure there was. But it was not to save them. For they had already been saved by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ and in His name.

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So, can you baptize others with the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

How were they baptized into one body? By that one Spirit, not by water.

Ac. 2:38

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” – Ac 2:38

Many attempt to use this passage to prove baptismal regeneration or the necessity of baptism for salvation, but it proves no such thing. By comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that it is faith in Christ that saves, and baptism is the symbol and evidence of one’s faith. Ac 2:38, standing alone, could mean either that baptism RESULTS IN the remission of sins, or it could just as easily mean that baptism is BECAUSE OF the remission of sins already obtained through faith. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that the true meaning is the latter. Those who repent and trust the Lord Jesus Christ receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life and the Holy Spirit, and baptism signifies this spiritual reality.

The Apostle Peter made his doctrine of baptism plain in his first epistle. He stated that baptism is a simply a “figure” of salvation (1Pe 3:21). This leaves no question whatsoever about the meaning of his statement in Ac 2:38.

Eph 1:13 plainly states that the Holy Spirit is received by trusting the Lord Jesus Christ. “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.”

The Lord Jesus Christ also taught that the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe in Him. “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)” (Joh 7:38-39).

When the Philippian jailer asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul did not reply that he needed to believe and be baptized. He replied, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house” (Ac 16:30-31). After the jailer believed on Christ, he was baptized that same night, but it was only the product of his salvation. Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized (Ac 10:43-48), and the Holy Spirit is the mark and seal of sonship and salvation (Ga 4:6; Eph 1:11-12). If baptism were a part of salvation, the Apostle Paul would not have said, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1Co 1:17). Baptism is not part of the Gospel that Paul preached. Further, consider 1Co 15:1-4. In this passage, Paul declared the Gospel “in a nutshell,” and there is no mention of baptism. Paul's Gospel message was also summarized in Ac 20:21 --— ”repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” Again, there is no word about baptism. Baptism is important, but it follows salvation and is not a part of the Gospel. When Paul explained how to be saved in Romans chapter 10, he again said nothing about baptism:

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Ro 10:9-13).

We believe the passage in Ac 2:38 is a powerful testimony to the importance of baptism and to the fact that it is one of the key evidences of salvation. A person who says he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ but who does not want to submit to baptism is probably deceiving himself.

Things Hard To Be Understood

It is the BLOOD of Jesus that saves! Baptism does not save, never has saved, and never will save anyone.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Leviticus 17:11)

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Hebrews 9:22)

In whom we have redemption through his blood , even the forgiveness of sins: (Colossians 1:14)

In whom we have redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (Ephesians 1:7)

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ . (Ephesians 2:13)

Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

How were they baptized into one body? By that one Spirit, not by water.

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You didn't answer my question. The baptism in I Cor 12:13 is most certainly water baptism.

If you will compare I Cor 12:13 and Acts 2:38, 41, and 47 it is easy to see how they agree so beautifully and perfectly.

I Cor says that they are baptized by the Spirit, not with the Spirit. What is the body? The body is the Church (Col 1:18, Eph 1:22-23). So they are baptized into the Church. That is exactly what happened on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Peter preached by inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4) and told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, and then we see that those who were baptized were added to the church or body.

Therefore, by one Spirit, they were baptized into one body.

The reason I asked if you had the power to baptize others with the Holy Spirit is because that was never a command, it was always a promise. It is something that Jesus would do.

Since it was a promise from Jesus and something he would do and not man, then by necessity, that baptism of Mark 16:16 and Matt 28:18-20 is WATER BAPTISM.

If you read Matt 28:18-20, that is applicable to us today because it is like a "do-loop", it doesn't end.

Jesus told them to teach, baptize and teach them what he commanded them. What had he just commanded them? To go teach, baptize and teach. Therefore, those who were baptized were taught to go teach and baptize others, and to teach them to go teach and baptize others, and so forth.

Therefore, instructions for people to be baptized in water contiue until today.

Since water baptism is in effect today, it is of necessity the one baptism spoken of in Eph 4:5.

Preaching Jesus has always contained instruction for water baptism.

Also to dismiss baptism in Mark 16:16 as something other than water baptism breaks every rule of interpretation. There is nothing in the text to suggests it's meaning is anything other than it's normal meaning.

Mark 16:16 is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

The apostles didn't misunderstand it, because they baptized other is water. Those who were taught and went to teach others did not misunderstand it, because they baptized others in water.

There is only one baptism today (Eph 4:5). Accept one and reject all others.

1 Corinthians 12:13 has nothing to do with water baptism, unless we are supposed to drink the water we are baptized in.

This verse is telling us we are immersed into the body by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12 is dealing with Spiritual gifts, therefore it makes no sense to bring water baptism into it. Water baptism does not impart Spiritual gifts, the Spirit does that.

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Paul did not tell the jailor when asked 'what must I do to be saved?' to 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized and you will be saved'.

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1. This reasoning fails because You don't baptize some one who does not believe in Jesus. Paul also doesn't tell them to Repent, confess, or to pray Jesus into there hearts, so should none of these things be done/taught either? Do they exist apart from Faith? No, but faith is defined by them.

Read Colossian 2:12 (faith & baptism puts you in Christ/circumsize your heart)

2. Acts 16:32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.

SFIC - Notice that verse 31 Paul tells them WHO they need to believe in (the bible doesn't say that the did believe right then and there at that moment when Paul mentioned Jesus' name. Some one they know nothing of). Verse 32 is the substance that would give them something to believe in "THEY SPOKE THE WORD OF THE LORD TO HIM". Faith comes from hearing the word doesn't it? You don't think Paul mentioned being baptized as he himself was "washing away his sin" Acts 22:16? After the "WORD" was preached then they believed and were baptized.

It is true we see the jailor being baptized afterword, but Paul did not tell him it was a prerequisite.

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He doesn't say repentance is either, but we know Our Lord looks for it (Luke 13:5 "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." ) Can a person believe and Not repent?

Romans 10:9,10,13 do not tack on baptism as a prerequisite for salvation. All that is needed for salvation there is believing with the heart, and confessing with the tongue.

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This is a total misuse of the text for the actual issue the church was facing (I'll help you out, that issue was never and is never baptism), it is the "Law".

Believers who being diconnected from Christ by believing also in the Old Covenant to save them through Circumcision and tradition.

Paul does not mention alot of things in those verse, probably because these verse where not the criterior for new converts. But it is applicable for those who lost christ in their hearts by following another teaching. Prayer is all you need if you where once connected to the vine, but lost faith.

Why not continue sharing the rest of the Scripture or else it may seem like you're Standing Firm on some of the Teachings

Rom 10:14-15
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

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The above should be clear that They (The Jews) cannot call if they do not believe
They can't believe if they have not heard
They can't Hear without someon speaking to them
The person speak obviously would need to be able to teach what Jesus desires in those who would follow him in faith.

Yeah, verses 9-10-13 seemed out of place in your point once you look at the entire context. Things are taught to people before they just start calling the name of the Lord.

Well... I am so glad I got dunked then!

But, I find it interesting that only one minor portion of my post was addressed...

And, actually if you want to be perfecty literal about it...

According to your reference Baptism doesn't do anything...

Jesus said shall be saved not is saved... So, according to your proof text there is something yet to come...

{T.I.C.} Perhaps that's the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with Speaking in Other Tongues?

How about this scripture?

Paul, who most of us here respect as an expert in both Rabbinacal law and the New Covenant says:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Unto intimates a completed transaction... Not one yet to be completed...

Would he dare to leave out such an essential as Water Immersion Baptism if it were not essential?

I think not!

So, could Jesus have meant a different Baptism?

Hmmm...

After all He *did* talk about many Baptisms...

A Baptism of Fire; Baptism in the Holy Ghost; among others...

The writer of Hebrews alludes to more than one kind of Baptism:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

So are you absolutely sure you have the *right* Baptism? I mean it's the same Greek word in all cases, right?

BTW {T.I.C.} means Tongue in Check

Mike Sr.

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Well... I am so glad I got dunked then!

But, I find it interesting that only one minor portion of my post was addressed...

And, actually if you want to be perfecty literal about it...

According to your reference Baptism doesn't do anything...

Jesus said shall be saved not is saved... So, according to your proof text there is something yet to come...

{T.I.C.} Perhaps that's the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with Speaking in Other Tongues?

How about this scripture?

Paul, who most of us here respect as an expert in both Rabbinacal law and the New Covenant says:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Unto intimates a completed transaction... Not one yet to be completed...

Would he dare to leave out such an essential as Water Immersion Baptism if it were not essential?

I think not!

So, could Jesus have meant a different Baptism?

Hmmm...

After all He *did* talk about many Baptisms...

A Baptism of Fire; Baptism in the Holy Ghost; among others...

The writer of Hebrews alludes to more than one kind of Baptism:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

So are you absolutely sure you have the *right* Baptism? I mean it's the same Greek word in all cases, right?

BTW {T.I.C.} means Tongue in Check

Mike Sr.

Click to expand...

Not much time to reply, so I'll do the best I can.

Eph 4:5, one baptism. There have been many, but now there is just one.

Matt 28:18-20. A command for them to go teach, baptize and to then teach those who were just baptized to go teach and baptize others and teach them to go teach and baptize others. I think you see the point. He told them to teach them what He had commanded them. Well, what had he just commanded them? To go teach and baptize.

Therefore this command to baptize is valid today.

Baptism with the HS was a promise made by Jesus and was to be done by Jesus. Neither you nor I can baptize others with the HS. Therefore, the command in Matt 28:18-20 is for water baptism.

As restated in Mark 16:16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

Look at that word unto. "eis" is often translated as "unto"

Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ eis, unto or for, the remission of sins.

Matt 26:28 This is the blood of the New Covenant which is shed for many eis, unto or for, the remission of sins

The same Greek phrase is used in both cases.

There Jesus really meant, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16) and Peter really got it right when he said, "Repent and be baptized...for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38).

Gotta run.