Water and Blood

[standingfirminChrist]

Christ never taught water baptism. As a matter of fact, John the Baptist plainly said 'He that cometh after you shall baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

So, when Jesus said 'He that believeth and is Baptized shall be saved', He could not have been talking about water baptism.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Christ never taught water baptism. As a matter of fact, John the Baptist plainly said 'He that cometh after you shall baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

So, when Jesus said 'He that believeth and is Baptized shall be saved', He could not have been talking about water baptism.

Wow, you're really out there on that one.

First of all, baptism of the Holy Ghost was a promise not a command.

Second, it was something that Jesus would do, not man.

With these things in mind, let's look at the parallel account in Matt 28:18-20.

Jesus told his disciples to go teach, baptize, and teach. Do you really think He was telling them to go do something that only He could do? That does not make any sense at all. We was telling them to go teach and baptize people and to teach them to go teach and baptize others. Therefore, that is a command that is passed down through them to us. Here is a question for you. Can you go teach someone and baptize them with the Holy Spirit? If you cannot, then you cannot fulfill Jesus' commission. Can you go teach someone and baptize them in water? If you can, then you can fulfill Jesus' commission.

In Mark 16:16, Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Now if you really think that is H.S. baptism, then you have many problems with the rest of scripture. Man would have no control of being baptized with the H.S. since that was a promise from Jesus and something He would do.

Let's go to Acts 8 as one example. In verse 5 we see that Philip preached Christ to them. In verse 12, you have those who believed, both men and women, being baptized.

Now was this water baptism as a result of him preaching Christ or Holy Spirit baptism? We don't have to wonder. According to you, the HS baptism is automatic when they believe. That is contrary to scripture.

Let's continue and look at verses 15 and 16, which say the HS had not yet fallen on any of them. How could this be according to your logic?

If you go back to the day of Pentecost, those believers were told to repent and be baptized. There is no question in any serious student of the scripture that those in Acts 2 were baptized in water. This is the first time Jesus' command of Mark 16:16 was carried out.

All though the book of Acts we have people being baptized in water.

To say that Mark 16:16 is not talking about water baptism is but a feeble attempt to make scripture say what we want it to say, rather than accept it for what it is really saying.

There is nothing in the text to suggest that baptism means anything other than it's common usage. Further more, if you look at the parallel passages, it is most certainly water baptism being described. Lastly, if you look at when the command was carried out, there is no doubt he was talking about water baptism.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Man is born of water and the blood when man places his faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

When the roman soldier pierced Christ's side with the spear, it was not just blood that gushed out, but water also.

That tells me what Jesus was referring to was the future death on the cross when he told Nicodemus that man needed to be born of the water and the blood.

I think you may be getting your stories mixed up. Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born of water and the Spirit, not blood.

Nicodemus thought Jesus was talking about physical birth, but Jesus corrected him.

We must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. We know the kingdom is the church according to Matt 16:18-19.

In Acts 2, how did they enter the Church? In verse 41, we have them being added when they were baptized. Added to what? If we keep reading, they were added to the Church (vs 47). Peter, speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2:4), instructed the believers to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. So, when they were baptized, they were added to the saved (vs 41 and 47).

They entered the kingdom being born of water according to the instructions of the Holy Spirit.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I have to confess some confusion here.

Is God bound by a ritual? Must one have water applied for God to notice him or her?

Really? Please explain that to me, because it smacks of magic.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
I have to confess some confusion here.

Is God bound by a ritual? Must one have water applied for God to notice him or her?

Really? Please explain that to me, because it smacks of magic.

To you is may "smack of magic", but to me, it "smacks of faith".

Do I believe God or not? God's ways are not my ways, His thoughts are not my thoughts. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter what I think about it, what did God say about it.

Didn't Jesus Himself say, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say"? (Luke 6:46). How can a person claim Jesus as their Lord, yet refuse to do what He says?

Jesus spoke plainly when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Either you have faith and accept this or you don't. It's that simple.

There is not one verse in the bible that can negate this verse. Yes, there are others that agree with and build upon this verse, but not one that negates or contradicts it.

You see, it is by faith that we obey, even when we don't understand. Just like Naaman, he didn't understand how dipping in the Jordan could cure leprosy. It didn't make sense to him and it was different than he thought. He went away in a rage. When he trusted and obeyed, he was cured of his leprosy. He wasn't cured on the way to the Jordan river. He wasn't cured after he dipped 3 times. He was cured when he dipped 7 times. Did God cure his leporsy or did the water magically cure it. Did God owe him a cure because he earned it? Of course not. If that were the case, then anyone today with leprosy could dip 7 times in the Jordan river and God would owe them a cure. No, he was cured because of his faith.

Gal 3:26-27 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by mman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
I have to confess some confusion here.

Is God bound by a ritual? Must one have water applied for God to notice him or her?

Really? Please explain that to me, because it smacks of magic.

To you is may "smack of magic", but to me, it "smacks of faith".

Do I believe God or not? God's ways are not my ways, His thoughts are not my thoughts. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter what I think about it, what did God say about it.

Didn't Jesus Himself say, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say"? (Luke 6:46). How can a person claim Jesus as their Lord, yet refuse to do what He says?

Jesus spoke plainly when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Either you have faith and accept this or you don't. It's that simple.

There is not one verse in the bible that can negate this verse. Yes, there are others that agree with and build upon this verse, but not one that negates or contradicts it.

You see, it is by faith that we obey, even when we don't understand. Just like Naaman, he didn't understand how dipping in the Jordan could cure leprosy. It didn't make sense to him and it was different than he thought. He went away in a rage. When he trusted and obeyed, he was cured of his leprosy. He wasn't cured on the way to the Jordan river. He wasn't cured after he dipped 3 times. He was cured when he dipped 7 times. Did God cure his leporsy or did the water magically cure it. Did God owe him a cure because he earned it? Of course not. If that were the case, then anyone today with leprosy could dip 7 times in the Jordan river and God would owe them a cure. No, he was cured because of his faith.

Gal 3:26-27 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]All of this, and yet you did not answer my question.

Is God bound by a ritual? Must one have water applied for God to notice him or her?

 

[mman]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
All of this, and yet you did not answer my question.

Is God bound by a ritual? Must one have water applied for God to notice him or her?

Were you really looking for an answer? If you were, you would have found it, because it is there.

Is it possible for God to lie? (Heb 6:18)

Was Jesus lying when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"?

Is there any verse that will negate or contradict this verse?

Does what I believe or understand change the truth?

I could answer your question directly, but until you answer it for yourself, it would be of no benefit to you.

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
I have to confess some confusion here.

Is God bound by a ritual? Must one have water applied for God to notice him or her?

Really? Please explain that to me, because it smacks of magic.

TP, What you are missing here is that God chose to use something physical & spiritual to bring us to him in a new covenant. This is NOT uncommon with God at all.

Consider Christ: A physical/spirtual act to bring about forgiveness.

It's seen all throughout the old testament.

Thief on the cross was able to be forgiven without the new covenant baptism, because he was still under the old covenant and Lets not forget Jesus had the authority to forgive sins on earth

Matthew 9
Jesus Heals a Paralytic
1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"

4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7And the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

If you don't believe baptism is necessary then Jesus' death should be questioned too since He has the authority to forgive before dying. But He still chose to Die.

Baptism is From God. And combined with a genuine faith it saves by connecting us to Christ.

 

[tragic_pizza]

So the act of baptism is neccesary, else salvation is lost.

This implies, as I understand it, that Christ's death is not enough, we still must do something (aside from simple acceptance of a free gift) to obtain salvation.

What other acts mut I perform to obtain God's attention and favor?

 

[mman]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
So the act of baptism is neccesary, else salvation is lost.

This implies, as I understand it, that Christ's death is not enough, we still must do something (aside from simple acceptance of a free gift) to obtain salvation.

What other acts mut I perform to obtain God's attention and favor?

Christ died for all, yet not all are saved. Would you agree with that? If you do, then by necessity something is required from man, else God is a respector of persons. In fact, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, - Titus 2:11", yet sadly, most men are lost.

Let's look at Matt 7. There is a broad way that leads to destruction and a narrow way that leads to life, that few will find. On that broad way are many sincere people who call Jesus "Lord" and work for Him their whole life. How do I know this, because starting in Verse 21ff, ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Heb 5:9 says, "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,"

Is this wrong?

II Thess 1:7-8, "...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

Let me ask you a question. How does one obey the gospel? That is a really important question if Jesus is going to take vengeance on those who don't obey the gospel.

First, what is the gospel? I Cor 15:1-4, the gospel is the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus. How can we obey that?

Rom 6:3-4, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

and

Rom 6:17, " But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered."

That's right, we obey the death, burial, and ressurection (gospel) when we are baptized. We aren't physically dead, buried, and raised, so we obey a form of this in baptism. This is easy to see when one is buried in water and raised to walk a new life.

When Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved", do you think he really meant it or was he just kidding?

People are told to repent. Is that necessary?

People are told to confess with their mouth. Is that really necessary? Isn't that a work since it is something man does?

Salvation is in Christ (II Tim 2:10). I challenge you to find how the scriptures say one gets INTO Christ.

 

[Tazman]

MMan, Good Post.

TP - When this is all said and done you will have to admit to a few things:

1. Your faith is defined by your definition of "Works", not the bible.

2. Everyone has to "Do" something to come to Christ including you, But the fact is you choose to draw the line at intellectual understand and not the heart (repentance).

3. God does not share your attitude against baptism & repentance.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Tazman:
MMan, Good Post.

TP - When this is all said and done you will have to admit to a few things:

1. Your faith is defined by your definition of "Works", not the bible.

OK, so I should rather define my faith in a way that you find acceptable. Got it.

2. Everyone has to "Do" something to come to Christ including you, But the fact is you choose to draw the line at intellectual understand and not the heart (repentance).

And you know this how? Because I dare approach the throne and question your theological conclusions? Ridiculous, and I find I am both amused and insulted that you would presume to tell me what my spiritual condition is based upon a couple of questions about water. Respectfully, get over yourself.

3. God does not share your attitude against baptism & repentance.

I have an attitude against repentance? Really?

There's a word for people like you.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by mman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
So the act of baptism is neccesary, else salvation is lost.

This implies, as I understand it, that Christ's death is not enough, we still must do something (aside from simple acceptance of a free gift) to obtain salvation.

What other acts mut I perform to obtain God's attention and favor?

Christ died for all, yet not all are saved. Would you agree with that? If you do, then by necessity something is required from man, else God is a respector of persons. In fact, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, - Titus 2:11", yet sadly, most men are lost.

Let's look at Matt 7. There is a broad way that leads to destruction and a narrow way that leads to life, that few will find. On that broad way are many sincere people who call Jesus "Lord" and work for Him their whole life. How do I know this, because starting in Verse 21ff, ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'</font>[/QUOTE]And the determination between those who are saved and thos who are not isn't their actions toward the "least of these," it's water.

Heb 5:9 says, "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,"

Is this wrong?

II Thess 1:7-8, "...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

Let me ask you a question. How does one obey the gospel? That is a really important question if Jesus is going to take vengeance on those who don't obey the gospel.

Let's see... Loving one another is probably a really good start. Caring for the sick, hungry, imprisoned, and unclothed would be another. Sharing the Gospel with others. Prayer, fasting, meditation and other spiritual disciplines would help, too.

First, what is the gospel? I Cor 15:1-4, the gospel is the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus. How can we obey that?

Rom 6:3-4, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

and

Rom 6:17, " But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered."

That's right, we obey the death, burial, and ressurection (gospel) when we are baptized. We aren't physically dead, buried, and raised, so we obey a form of this in baptism. This is easy to see when one is buried in water and raised to walk a new life.

When Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved", do you think he really meant it or was he just kidding?

People are told to repent. Is that necessary?

People are told to confess with their mouth. Is that really necessary? Isn't that a work since it is something man does?

Salvation is in Christ (II Tim 2:10). I challenge you to find how the scriptures say one gets INTO Christ.

The Gospel is more than just getting wet.

 

[Tazman]

The Gospel is more than just getting wet

And so is Baptism


For you, baptism is reduced to just "Getting Wet" to Jesus it his death burial and resurrection.

Here's some "Alones" for you:

Baptism "Alone" is pointless

Faith "Alone" is Pointless

Repentance "Alone" is Pointless

Biblical Truth "Alone" is Pointless

Confession "Alone" is Pointless,

But all work together in accepting Gods gift.

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tazman:
MMan, Good Post.

TP - When this is all said and done you will have to admit to a few things:

1. Your faith is defined by your definition of "Works", not the bible.

OK, so I should rather define my faith in a way that you find acceptable. Got it.

2. Everyone has to "Do" something to come to Christ including you, But the fact is you choose to draw the line at intellectual understand and not the heart (repentance).

And you know this how? Because I dare approach the throne and question your theological conclusions? Ridiculous, and I find I am both amused and insulted that you would presume to tell me what my spiritual condition is based upon a couple of questions about water. Respectfully, get over yourself.

3. God does not share your attitude against baptism & repentance.

I have an attitude against repentance? Really?

There's a word for people like you. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry to offend you, I feel you missed the point though.

I am not your problem, but it's what you've been taught that makes it hard for you to admit these things.

Does God ever say you are "Just getting wet" when you are baptized?

Did the Apostles? Anyone in the bible?

Nope. Just you and your westernized beliefs.

You are bias in your view of defining Faith and How YOU see the need for Baptism and Repentance.

You call Jesus' command works. Your issue is with Him not me.

Jesus would not allow anyone to follow him, thus being His student, without Holding to His teachings, some of which you reject for unbiblical reasons.

So in the end you will find the above true.

 

[mman]

The Gospel is more than just getting wet.

If the power were in the water, then all who ever went swimming would have their sins washed away.

The power is not in the water, it's in the blood. That's the whole point of my original post.

So, according to the scriptures, how do we come in contact with the blood? It is of no value to in essence say, "no it doesn't".

I used scriptures to show how we come in contact with the blood. Please provide other scriptures to show any other way to come in contact with the blood.

Did Jesus really mean, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved", or was he just kidding?

If you had been standing there when Jesus made that statement, would you have informed the Son of God that all baptism does is get you wet?

 

[Melanie]

How about Baptism of Desire....

the good thief aknowledged the Divinity of Jesus on the Cross in requesting that Jesus would remember him , His response was this day you will be in Paradise....

what an incredible testement of faith when juxtaposed is the other thief jeering and ridiculing Our Saviour

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Briony-Gloriana:
How about Baptism of Desire....

the good thief aknowledged the Divinity of Jesus on the Cross in requesting that Jesus would remember him , His response was this day you will be in Paradise....

what an incredible testement of faith when juxtaposed is the other thief jeering and ridiculing Our Saviour

Eph 4:5, the is but one baptism today. Only one!

Concerning the thief, the new covenant was not yet in effect. Read Heb 9:16-17, "For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives."

The first sermon following Jesus' death/burial/resurrection is found in Acts Chapter 2.

Peter preached the death/burial/resurrection of Jesus. Some believed his message.

Those believers asked, "What must we do?" (Acts 2:37). What was Peter's respond? Did he say, "Oh, you don't have to do anything. It's obvious you are believers. It's obvious you have a desire, else you would not have asked, 'What must we do?'"

NO! How did Peter respond? He told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

This is after the new covenant is in effect, after the death of Jesus, after his last will and testament became valid.

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by Briony-Gloriana:
How about Baptism of Desire....

the good thief aknowledged the Divinity of Jesus on the Cross in requesting that Jesus would remember him , His response was this day you will be in Paradise....

what an incredible testement of faith when juxtaposed is the other thief jeering and ridiculing Our Saviour

Thief on the cross was able to be forgiven without the new covenant baptism, because he was still under the old covenant and Lets not forget Jesus had the authority to forgive sins on earth

Matthew 9
Jesus Heals a Paralytic
1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"

4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7And the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

If you don't believe baptism is necessary then Jesus' death should be questioned too since He has the authority to forgive sins before dying. But He still chose to Die. Why?

 

[Melanie]

Phew thank you Tazman, mman made it sound as if Our Lord could not read the dying thiefs heart and accept his baptism of desire, and by logical deduction that Jesus therefore had lost His Divinity.

I am sure that it was not the intent however.....