"Eternal Security" - "Unconditional Security"

DHK,

I understand the part about Jesus needing only wash Peter's feet because the original "Bath" is justification but then the washing of the feet is sanctification. Below is a passage taken from one of our SDA books on that subject...

But then here's my question... Why this if we are "Once Saved, Always Saved"?:

"IF I wash thee NOT, thou hast no part with Me," Peter surrendered his pride and self-will.

..and what if he didnt?

Jesus said if Peter wouldnt allow Him to wash His feet he would have NO PART with Him...

so wheres the once saved always saved in that? do you believe Peter was FORCED to comply? couldnt he say no? if so why would Jesus even say that to him?

Desire of Ages, EG White:

"He did not realize that for this Christ came into the world. With great emphasis he exclaimed, "Thou shalt never wash my feet."
Solemnly Christ said to Peter, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with Me." The service which Peter refused was the type of a higher cleansing. Christ had come to wash the heart from the stain of sin. In refusing to allow Christ to wash his feet, Peter was refusing the higher cleansing included in the lower. He was really rejecting his Lord. It is not humiliating to the Master to allow Him to work for our purification. The truest humility is to receive with thankful heart any provision made in our behalf, and with earnestness do service for Christ.

At the words, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with Me," Peter surrendered his pride and self-will. He could not endure the thought of separation from Christ; that would have been death to him. "Not my feet only," he said, "but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit."

These words mean more than bodily cleanliness. Christ is still speaking of the higher cleansing as illustrated by the lower. He who came from the bath was clean, but the sandaled feet soon became dusty, and again needed to be washed. So Peter and his brethren had been washed in the great fountain opened for sin and uncleanness. Christ acknowledged them as His. But temptation had led them into evil, and they still needed His cleansing grace. When Jesus girded Himself with a towel to wash the dust from their feet, He desired by that very act to wash the alienation, jealousy, and pride from their hearts. This was of far more consequence than the washing of their dusty feet. With the spirit they then had, not one of them was prepared for communion with Christ. Until brought into a state of humility and love, they were not prepared to partake of the paschal supper, or to share in the memorial service which Christ was about to institute. Their hearts must be cleansed. Pride and self-seeking create dissension and hatred, but all this Jesus washed away in washing their feet. A change of feeling was brought about. Looking upon them, Jesus could say, "Ye are clean." Now there was union of heart, love for one another. They had become humble and teachable. Except Judas, each was ready to concede to another the highest place. Now with subdued and grateful hearts hey could receive Christ's words.

Like Peter and his brethren, we too have been washed in the blood of Christ, yet often through contact with evil the heart's purity is soiled. We must come to Christ for His cleansing grace. Peter shrank from bringing his soiled feet in contact with the hands of his Lord and Master; but how often we bring our sinful, polluted hearts in contact with the heart of Christ! How grievous to Him is our evil temper, our vanity and pride! Yet all our infirmity and defilement we must bring to Him. He alone can wash us clean. We are not prepared for communion with Him unless cleansed by His efficacy."

Claudia

 

mima,

Jesus can and will deny us IF we deny Him:

Mt:10:33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven


and we are told exactly how we can deny Jesus:

Ti:1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate..

 

Briguy,

On your question about why would God go through all that trouble to save us if we could be lost?


Thats how God is, God is faithful, He is true to His promises, He will do HIS part even if we dont do ours...

Rom:8:32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

But then look what happens when God does this and thing for us, to nourish us, to provide all we need to succeed, but then we wont cooperate:

Luke 13:
6: He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7: Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8: And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Why go through the trouble of digging around the tree and dunging it, etc... if its not going to end up bearing fruit you ask? and ends up being CUT DOWN??

Because God will leave us with NO EXCUSES...

Claudia

 

"Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited." Jer. 17:5, 6.

God "maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matt. 5:45); but men have the power to shut themselves away from sunshine and shower. So while the Sun of Righteousness shines, and the showers of grace fall freely for all, we may by separating ourselves from God still "inhabit the parched places in the wilderness."… just like the prodigal son who wandered into the "far country".

He came back to the Father but not everyone does that. 2Pt:2:22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

I cant see how anybody could believe in Eternal Security if the only Bible passage there was for them to read what that one in second Peter chapter 2...

I just dont get how anyone could possibly manuever their way around that one...


Claudia

 

To those that believe in "conditional security" practice this?

Balance-Based Theology


“If your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, then you will go to heaven,” at least that’s what I was taught in Sunday school. I still remember my teacher, who was the pastor’s wife, comparing eternal judgment to a balance. On one side, she explained would be all the good things we had done and on the other side would be all our sins.



We tend to put our works, both good and bad, on a scale. Whichever way it tips determines the level of our acceptance. I call this way of thinking "Balance-Based Theology."
I got the information from another web site but it occurred to me that "conditional security" would need to be based on Balance-Based Theology". Does this statement seem reasonable to you?





Balance-Based Theology

 

I took and copied and pasted some general comments from Ellen White, whom most SDAs regard as the messenger of God for our church on the subject of faith and works... I fully agree with every statement given, it is what the Bible teaches. She amplifies what is already there. It has nothing to do with the fact that "our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds". or what mima refers to as "balanced based theology":


Faith and Works, page 25, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Ellen White Clarifies the Issues
There is danger in regarding justification by faith as placing merit on faith. When you take the righteousness of Christ as a free gift you are justified freely through the redemption of Christ. What is faith? "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). It is an assent of the understanding to God's words which binds the heart in willing consecration and service to God, Who gave the understanding, Who moved on the heart, Who first drew the mind to view Christ on the cross of Calvary. Faith is rendering to God the intellectual powers, abandonment of the mind and will to God, and making Christ the only door to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

When men learn they cannot earn righteousness by their own merit of works, and they look with firm and entire reliance upon Jesus Christ as their only hope, there will not be so much of self and so little of Jesus. Souls and bodies are defiled and polluted by sin, the heart is estranged from God, yet many are struggling in their own finite strength to win salvation by good works. Jesus, they think, will do some of the saving; they must do the rest. They need to see by faith the righteousness of Christ as their only hope for time and for eternity.


Faith and Works, page 50, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Faith and Works
When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion. But Jesus says, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me" (Matthew 16:24).

The Faith I Live By, page 113, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: God's Remedy For Sin
By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.

Those who . . . accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God.

We are not to be anxious about what Christ and God think of us. but about what God thinks of Christ, our Substitute.


Sons and Daughters of God, page 50, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: We Obey the Father's Law of Love

After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more . Jer. 31:33, 34.

The work Christianity is designed to achieve in the world is not to depreciate the law of God, not to detract from its sacred dignity in the slightest degree, but it is to write that law in the mind and heart. When the law of God is thus implanted in the soul of the believer, he is approaching eternal life through the merits of Jesus. . . .

The object of the gospel is met when this great end is achieved. Its work from age to age is to unite the hearts of His followers in a spirit of universal brotherhood, through belief of the truth, and thus establish heaven's system of order and harmony in the family of God on earth, that they may be accounted worthy to become members of the royal family above. God, in His wisdom and mercy, tests men and women here, to see if they will obey His voice and respect His law, or rebel as Satan did. . . .

God's object in giving the law to the fallen race was that man might, through Jesus, rise from his low estate to be one with God, that the greatest moral changes might be manifested in his nature and character. This moral transformation must take place, or man would not be a safe subject in the kingdom of God; for he would raise a revolt. . . .


Here in this life is the testing, trying time. The angels of God are watching the development of character, and weighing moral worth. The whole question is settled in this, Is he obedient or disobedient to the commandments of God? has the sinner been transformed in this world, through the merits of Christ, to an obedient servant, so that he is fitted to join the heavenly society?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind . Matt. 22:37.

He who has the love of God shed abroad in his heart, will reflect the purity and love which exist in Jehovah, and which Christ represented in our world. He who has the love of God in his heart has no enmity against the law of God, but renders willing obedience to all His commandments, and this constitutes Christianity. He who has supreme love to God will reveal love to his fellow-men, who belong to God both by creation and redemption. Love is the fulfilling of the law; and it is the duty of every child of God to render obedience to His commandments. . . .

Sons and Daughters of God, page 52, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: We Obey the Father's Law of Love

Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself . Matt. 22:39.
The divine law requires us to love God supremely, and our neighbor as ourselves. Without the exercise of this love, the highest profession of faith is mere hypocrisy.

 

This is wacky

1st white ask...

What is faith?

Then white properly gives us a good verse.

"The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

Not bad so far. But she is not done..

She then adds her own understanding.....

Faith is rendering to God the intellectual powers, abandonment of the mind and will to God, and making Christ the only door to enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Say what? I thought we were going with the Bible listed about. What is wrong with what is found in Heb?? This is jibber jabber. Lets look at this closer

Faith is rendering to God..
Render…or translation of literary work….or I think she means giving..or deliver

So we could read it this way…

Faith is giving to God…the intellectual powers.

intellectual powers…this is called "thinking" people. That is..Unless you know of other powers that man can do with his mind. So lets go back and read it again.

Faith is the giving to God our thinking ...abandon of our Mind and will

THIS IS NOTHING LIKE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS FAITH IS.

Being that there maybe others that like this lady...was she right or wrong over Her "shut the door" doctrine. For those that has never heard of this, white got a message from God that according to Matt 25 God would shut the door on salvation on Oct 22, 1844. White claimed she and a few others were the "wise virgins" safely inside with Christ, and all others were OUTSIDE and foolish virgins..outside the door.

Here's is a good one that goes with the thread. Back then white KNOW she was going to heaven. Yes...on that side of the door...the inside...Eternal Security was fine to white.

When Christ did not come back in 1844..white dropped the Eternal Security.

Now i have one thing to ask you. Was White wrong? If she was wrong...where did she get her message? Did God give her the wrong note?

In Christ...James

 

And now for a few "facts"

"White" was the 16 year old "Harmon" in 1844 and had no visions at all predicting the Oct 22 1844 date.

How sad that James has to be as wrong on this "setup" as he is on the OSAS topic. --

Having more areas to "get wrong" is simply compounding the problem for James. Best to stick with the topic of the thread instead.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Actually I did see a post on the OSAS argument

Thanks Claudia - I guess I have been hanging around the Calvinist-vs-Arminian debate board a little too much. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

 

Are you accusing Paul of "balance theology" in 2Tim 2?

having said that - I do realize that there are those here who would much rather discuss Ellen White (on both the SDA and non-SDA sides as it turns out) -- but I suggest that the Bible provides sufficient material on the subject to show what truth is -- and I submit that IT (not Ellen White) is the authority and standard on all doctrine, faith and practice.

I submit that Ellen White's OWN statements on our need to rely on the "Protestant principle of the Bible and the Bible only" is sufficient to recommend scripture for a discussion like this even to the most ardent of White supporters.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Christ did not appear in 1844. After this "Great Disappointment," one "little flock" still insisted the date of their original predictions had been correct. They decided the event marked by 1844 was not the Second Coming, but the entrance of Christ into the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Sanctuary. There, they said, He began the "Investigative Judgment." This doctrine was received and endorsed by Ellen G. White (Ibid., p. 680).

From 1844 to 1851, the SDA taught the "shut door" doctrine, based on Jesus' parable of the ten virgins. Anyone who had not accepted the Adventist message by the time Jesus entered the Holy of Holies was to be shut out permanently, as were the five foolish virgins. Cut off from the Bridegroom, they could not join the Adventists or have any hope of eternal life. Ellen White not only approved and taught this doctrine, ................

((((but her first vision experience (she claimed over 2,000 visions) was largely responsible for its being received by the Adventist group (Brinsmead, Robert, D., Judged by the Gospel: A Review of Adventism, pp. 130–133).)))))

hummm

In fact White did start her visions in 1844...

Ellen G. White claimed to be, "a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." The official SDA Questions on Doctrine (Q.D.) states that, "the Holy Spirit opened to her mind important events and called her to give certain instructions for these last days, and inasmuch as these instructions, in our understanding, are in harmony with the Word of God, which Word alone is able to make us wise unto salvation, we as a denomination accept them as inspired counsels from the Lord" (Q.D., p. 93). Mrs. White claimed to have received more than 3,000 "inspired counsels from the Lord" (i.e., visions) between 1844 and 1868.

Now..Many rank-and-file SDA members deny that their organization any longer decrees Ellen G. White a God-inspired prophet. Yet sadly in SDA official publications, the SDA church continues to defend Ellen White legends, and maintain there was no difference in the degree of inspiration she received from that received by Bible writers

(Review & Herald, 4 October 1928, p. 11; "Source of Final Appeal," Adventist Review, 3 June 1971, pp. 4–6; G. A. Irwin, Mark of the Beast, p. 1; "The Inspiration and Authority of the Ellen G. White Writings," Adventist Review, 15 July 1982, p. 3; Ministry, October 1981, p. 8 (5); see also, Judged by the Gospel, pp. 125–130). And in the SDA June 2000, General Conference, the church voted to more aggressively affirm and support the "Spirit of Prophecy through the ministry of Ellen White" (Adventist Today, [online: July 2000])

 

Let me ask again...

Was white wrong over the "shut door" doctrine? If so...where did she get her visions?


In Christ...James

 

Ellen White kinda sounds like the RCC's Mary. Why can't Christians just follow Christ? Both groups proclaim that all one needs is the Bible and Jesus and then in the next breath say that we need Mary and Ellen. Double Talking!

God Bless!

 

"Again" having some facts to go with the spin might be helpful.

#1. Ellen White never predicted that God would come in 1844!

#2. Ellen White never claimed to have a vision saying that God would return in 1844.

#3. SDAs STILL TODAY present the SAME 2300 year timeline SHOWING that it ends in 1844 but that the event it predicts is NOT the 2nd coming!

These are facts that your spin does not make clear for the reader.

What that has to do with "unconditional security" however is beyond me. Why not start an 1844 thread if you are interested in the 2300 days of Daniel 8??

Why mix that in here??

In Christ,

Bob

 

having said that - I do realize that there are those here who would much rather discuss Ellen White (on both the SDA and non-SDA sides as it turns out) -- but I suggest that the Bible provides sufficient material on the subject to show what truth is -- and I submit that IT (not Ellen White) is the authority and standard on all doctrine, faith and practice.

I submit that Ellen White's OWN statements on our need to rely on the "Protestant principle of the Bible and the Bible only" is sufficient to recommend scripture for a discussion like this even to the most ardent of White supporters.

</font>[/QUOTE]Might as well try to get the topic "Back on track" again - for those interested in the actual topic of this thread!

 

Claudia writes:
"""And I dont view God as sitting there just waiting for some legal excuse to condemn us, I believe He is wanting our whole heart. And so, you love God and want to please Him in every way. You will have the state of mind to want to study His Word to find out everything that you can that will please Him. You will be perfect in that way. Yes you will fall many times but that is why the Bible says:

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"""

Claudia, so my "perfection" to God is based on something I do?? Do you really want to say that? Does God view you as perfect at the times you really desire to please Him and do His will but then view you as less then perfect when you have a day where you are struggling?? You are making your ability to stay saved solely in your own hands, or mind, or heart, however you want to say it. We cannot be "Perfect" by our actions. It is just not possible. The book of 1 John is often mis-quoted and mis-understood. A few verses are plucked out and the whole is ignored. Remember, this is the same book that says we can KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. As you mentioned it also says a believer can't sin.

Two things to note here, in 1 john 2:1 the "if" is a greek word that also means "when". It can be translated either way. Which seems to fit your life better Claudia? When you sin Christ is your advocate or If you sin Christ is your advocate. Perhaps you are different then me but I haven't made it through one day yet without sinning, let alone my entire Christian walk. Think about John's first statement. Should he have said My pathetic sinning children I tell you these things because I know you will blow it big time. No, he wanted to encourage them as we as believers are called to encourage eachother. We are to strive to live a life that is worthy of our calling. That is all John is saying. 1 John has to be read as a whole to see that sin is defined in a couple different ways, It is defined as "all wrong doing" and is defined as "unlawfullness" or "against the law". This book of 1 John is very deep but has a message of wonder for us. We are to live the best Christian life we can, in thankfulness for the gift of eternal life that God, through Jesus has bestowed upon us, as the weight of the "law" has been removed from us. Jesus told the woman being stoned to "go and sin no more". That was before the Holy Spirit was given. Think about that and apply it to 1 John.

be back later,

In Christ,
Brian

 

Bob,

You said...
What that has to do with "unconditional security" however is beyond me. Why not start an 1844 thread if you are interested in the 2300 days of Daniel 8??


James...
If SDA post her writings then it is fair to reply. I never brought up White..it was and always is a SDA that post her notes.
**************

Bob...
These are facts that your spin does not make clear for the reader.

James...

Let be very clear this time. The SDA took on the doctrine of the "shut door" MAINLY...not the only reason...but MANILY because White said she had a vision. That is a FACT!!!! This is in many SDA writings.

Now i ask for the 3rd time...was she right? If not..where did she get her vision?
*******************
Bob....
Why mix that in here??

James...
I replied to a post...one of many post made by a SDA. She said...SDA looked to her (white) for understanding. This was posted on this thread. The "shut door" doctrine of the SDA church in FACT does teach that those inside the door are secure in Christ. This means Christ went into the Holy of Holies and SHUT the door. Shut door doctrine teaches..salvation is ended back in 1844. Let me give the full picture ...the SDA now teach that OSAS is not in the Bible. That is the mix....understand?

Again the shut door doctrine means that some were OSAS.
So...was this the right doctrine to preach?

I need to point out...that The Investigative Judgment is now talked more about then the "shut door". Mainly because those in the shut door doctrine died. But according to SDA theology, beginning on October 22, 1844, Christ entered upon the "judgment phase" of His ministry, whereby He blots out sin:

The SDA doctrine of the "Investigative Judgment" rests on Ellen G. White's claimed revelation that Christ entered the heavenly Holy of Holies, not at His ascension, but in 1844, wherein He then began to investigate the records of human works (TGC, pp. 362-373) (cf. Heb. 9).

"When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty" (TGC, p. 422).

Satan, thereby, becomes the scapegoat of Leviticus 16. This lack of clear distinction between the forgiveness of sins and the blotting out of sins, makes it impossible for anyone to know, even in the hour of his death, whether he is saved or not.

So...assurance of salvation is now no longer part of SDA doctrine.

While on the "judgment phase"...ask yourself this...When Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished," ...or completed, paid in full, it can it be that there is yet another salvation event more than 1,800 years later, just as essential to salvation as Christ's death on the cross, in which one must believe in order to be saved.

This is clearly "another gospel" (Gal. 1:6–9).


In Christ..James

 

Brian,

I'm no good at all at debating, but I can just tell you my opinions about things. I cant do like you guys do on here, unfortunately.

But anyway, I dont view the whole thing like you seem to think I do... such as "He loves me, He loves me not" like Im picking petals off a daisy and one minute I think Im in God's grace and the next minute I'm not ....according to whether I sinned or not.

I view it more like a "state of mind" thing. If I am sincerely giving my heart to God and trying to find out what He wants me to do or not to do, then He accepts me... but not based on that, based always on the merits of Christ.

Think if it this way, see what David said here in Psalms?


Ps:51:10: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Do you view David as continually thinking one minute he's in God's grace and the next minute he isnt? With David it was a "heart and attitude" thing. Love and loyalty to God.

Then read from Ezekiel, where it talks about the righteous who turn away from God... and read the end what God tells them to do, which is to

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit"

I look at it as that they did sacrifices which in their day represented the upcoming sacrifice of Christ... just like now we rely on the sacrifice of Christ.

and I cant imagine that they viewed things like one minute if they sinned they were out of favor with God and then the next minute they are in His graces...


Ezekiel 18:

21: But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22: All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23: Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24: But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25: Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26: When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27: Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28: Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29: Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30: Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31: Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit : for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32: For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I wish that I understood the Bible better because it does seems sometimes like the verses contradict each other, but of course we know its just our imperfect understanding because they really dont contradict.

But so far I dont see any contradiction in the idea of God wanting you to love Him with the whole heart, mind and soul... and being secure in His grace if we should mess up, which yes, I do all the time. In fact I believe the more you behold Jesus and His perfection, the more sinful you appear in your own eyes. And the more you see your need of Him.

I see myself as continually needing to apply the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus to my case... yet a the same time I see myself as needing to continually surrender my heart to God. And that if I dont then I am setting myself under the black banner of Satan instead of under Christ.

But I dont see myself as one minute in good with God and the next minute being on His rejection list every time I sin. Because anything short of the perfect perfection of Christ is actually sin anyway.... and I am very very far from that.


Claudia

 

Jarthur001,

Here, this might help your understanding...


"The Shut Door"

What is "the shut door" and what did Ellen White believe about it?
William Miller likened his message of the soon return of Jesus to the "midnight cry" of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins (Matt. 25:1-13). He interpreted the ten "virgins" as those summoned to meet the returning Lord, the "wedding" as the eternal kingdom, and the shutting of the "door" (verse 10) as "the closing up of the mediatorial kingdom, and finishing the gospel period"--in other words, the closing of the "door of salvation" or the close of human probation. According to Matthew 25:10, "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut" (Matt. 25:10).

Because they expected Christ to return at the close of the 2300 prophetic days of Daniel 8:14, Millerite adventists had emphasized that probation would close at the end of that period. Therefore, for a short period after the disappointment of October 1844, Miller and many of his followers, including young Ellen Harmon (later Ellen White), felt that their work of warning sinners was finished for the world. While a majority of Millerites soon gave up their belief that prophecy had been fulfilled in 1844, a small group continued to hold that the time had been correct, but that they had been mistaken in the event expected. They were convinced that the movement was of God, that the 2300-day prophecy had been fulfilled, and that the "door" referred to in the parable was therefore shut--whatever that might mean. Thus, to believe in the "shut door" became equivalent to believing in the validity of the 1844 movement as a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

What is important to recognize is that the term "shut door" underwent a change in meaning among those who saw that the 2300-day prophecy referred to a change in Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. The "shut door" was seen as applying to the closing of the first phase and the opening of the second and final phase of Christ's intercession in heaven. It is erroneous to read into all of Ellen White's "shut door" statements the initial Millerite definition.

Ellen White maintained, and the evidence supports, that, while she and others believed for a time that no more sinners would be converted after 1844, she was never instructed in vision that the door of salvation was shut for the world.

Here is Ellen White's explanation of what she believed regarding the "shut door:"

"For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. [Emphasis supplied. Here Ellen White states that her visions were not the source of her belief in this Millerite error.] It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

"I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

"There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah:

"'My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years' (Gen. 6:3).

"There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

"There was a shut door in Christ's day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, 'Your house is left unto you desolate' (Matt. 23:38).

"Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John:

"'These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth' (Rev. 3:7).

"I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels' messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.

"Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light from heaven that the Spirit of God could not reach. And this class included, as I have stated, both those who refused to accept the message when it was presented to them, and also those who, having received it, afterward renounced their faith. These might have a form of godliness, and profess to be followers of Christ; but having no living connection with God, they would be taken captive by the delusions of Satan. These two classes are brought to view in the [first] vision--those who declared the light which they had followed a delusion, and the wicked of the world who, having rejected the light, had been rejected of God. No reference is made to those who had not seen the light, and therefore were not guilty of its rejection" (Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 62-64).

 

Brian,

you said:

"1 John has to be read as a whole to see that sin is defined in a couple different ways, It is defined as "all wrong doing" and is defined as "unlawfullness" or "against the law". This book of 1 John is very deep but has a message of wonder for us. We are to live the best Christian life we can, in thankfulness for the gift of eternal life that God, through Jesus has bestowed upon us, as the weight of the "law" has been removed from us. Jesus told the woman being stoned to "go and sin no more". That was before the Holy Spirit was given. Think about that and apply it to 1 John."


I view it as that God promised in our times that He would write His law in our hearts and minds...

Heb:8:10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb:10:16: This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


and so I just dont see the idea that God doesnt care whether or not we keep His law anymore.


Claudia