"Eternal Security" - "Unconditional Security"

[Briguy]

Charles, there are lots of ways to put things and lots of way that some try to convolute the obvious. The obvious is that we once saved we wear the very righteouness of Christ. He died and rose to make that permanent. The righteousness of Christ can't be disgarded, for any reason. Why? some may ask, because it belongs to Him, not us. We can't disgard what does not belong to us. It is by His perfect faith we are saved and by His perfect faith we are kept saved. So, the conclusion is that a person could sin in many ways and still be saved. I guess I don't understand with all that we have seen Satan do in the world from the begining, that we would be surprized that he can even talk some believers into doubting their faith and commiting sins. Satan has always messed with the believers. Satan can even work on a persons conviction of the sin they are committing. Never under-estimate Satan and think that he can't fool a "real" believer. He can fool the saved person, but he can never take them away from God. Again, we are kept by God's faithfulness to us, not our faithfulness to him.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Dustin]

Well, as far as Charismatics/Pentecostals, I really wish I never would have seen all those fake televangelists faking real works of God. I believe that certain people (as apointed and anoited by the Lord) still do these things. But I pray the Spirit will send some serious discernment on the issue because it CAN BE faked. I reject the idea that you HAVE to speak in tounges to have the Holy Spirit. We have the promises in God's Word that whoever recieves Christ recieves the Holy Spirit. After all trhere was no New Testament on that day during the feast of Pentecost...well, maybe this is a whole new thread...

 

[mman]

"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." - Heb 3:12-13

and later,

"And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief." (vs18-19)

He is warning "brothers" to take care or beware. Why? So they don't fall away from the living God. How would they do that? With an evil unbelieving heart.

Would it make any sense whatsoever to warn a non christian or non believer? Of course not.

Then he goes on and compares diobedience with unbelief. Did they believe in God? How could they not? They had seen the plagues, crossed through the Red Sea, being led by the cloud, and were eye witnesses to God's mighty works. Of course they believed in God, but they could not enter because of unbelief/disobedience.

Read what John 3:36 says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - ESV

There are two different Greek words used, and the KJV translators did not do us any favors when they concealed this distinction by translating these two different words as "believeth".

Heb 3 is in complete and perfect harmony with James 5:19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

This is obviously talking about spiritual death.

What did Paul say, "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain." - I Cor 15:1-2

The Gospel will only save you "if you hold fast" otherwise, you have "believed in vain".

How is it even possible for a christian to have believed in vain, if OSAS were true?

Peter says that it would be better to have never "escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" than to know it and turn back.- II Pet 2:20-21

Do all these clear passages have to be "explained away", or can they be accepted for what they say? There are many more passages that are in complete and perfect harmony with these that show OSAS as a false doctrine. If one does not accept these verse or tries to explain them away, then they would not accept the others either.

 

[Dustin]

no comment

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

What Dustin said...

 

[steaver]

Charles, there are lots of ways to put things and lots of way that some try to convolute the obvious. The obvious is that we once saved we wear the very righteouness of Christ. He died and rose to make that permanent. The righteousness of Christ can't be disgarded, for any reason. Why? some may ask, because it belongs to Him, not us. We can't disgard what does not belong to us. It is by His perfect faith we are saved and by His perfect faith we are kept saved. So, the conclusion is that a person could sin in many ways and still be saved. I guess I don't understand with all that we have seen Satan do in the world from the begining, that we would be surprized that he can even talk some believers into doubting their faith and commiting sins. Satan has always messed with the believers. Satan can even work on a persons conviction of the sin they are committing. Never under-estimate Satan and think that he can't fool a "real" believer. He can fool the saved person, but he can never take them away from God. Again, we are kept by God's faithfulness to us, not our faithfulness to him.

In Christ,
Brian

The very foundation of salvation!

Salvation is of the LORD. Very good preaching brother!

The very beginning of understanding OSAS is understanding that IT AIN"T ANYTHING OF YOU!!!

For by GRACE ye have been saved!

Why is GRACE do difficult for so many to comprehend? Why fight it? Why wrestle with the scriptures? ...just accept it and those scriptures which trouble you will reveal a whole different perspective and then you can apply them correctly to life!

God Bless!

 

[Charles Meadows]

Brian,

The righteousness of Christ can't be disgarded, for any reason. Why? some may ask, because it belongs to Him, not us. We can't disgard what does not belong to us. It is by His perfect faith we are saved and by His perfect faith we are kept saved. So, the conclusion is that a person could sin in many ways and still be saved.

I agree with this statement.

But I don't agree that everyone who comes to the altar is saved.

I still sin daily - but I am aware of it and I make efforts to be better. Obviously I will NEVER be sinless! But often I a convicted about things I have done; convicted that I could have been more Christlike. This is the chastening of the Spirit.

I think that if someone can sin and sin and sin without conviction then he/she does not have the Spirit of God. I think that someone who makes a profession but has zero evidence of a change does not have the Spirit of God.

So I agree that Christ's righteousness is something so big that we cannot change or lose it. But I think it is also so big that it WILL make a change in a person.

 

[Briguy]

Thanks Steaver and I have loved everything you have said on this thread. Your last statement was exactly right. You have to start with the foundational Truth that we are saved and kept saved by God's faithfulness, not ours. The scriptures used above must be read from that standpoint and then they take on a whole different meaning. I can explain any of them, in context, and in light of this basic Christian Truth. Lets do this. Since my time is limited, I will let someone who thinks one of the verses used by mman proves OSAS is wrong, pick the verse they think is the most convincing, and I will render a more solid interpretation, starting with the basic truth that Steaver and I have spoken of.

Charles, I agree with you that some come to alters but do not walk away "saved" people. Mouth confessions to not save a person. Look at the example in scripture that says the man who fell to the ground and beat his chest was the one who walked away forgiven, not the one who just talked a good game. Also, there is the whole "election" issue to deal with. That though is a whole different thread.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[steaver]

Brian...

The scriptures used above must be read from that standpoint and then they take on a whole different meaning. I can explain any of them, in context, and in light of this basic Christian Truth. Lets do this. Since my time is limited, I will let someone who thinks one of the verses used by mman proves OSAS is wrong, pick the verse they think is the most convincing, and I will render a more solid interpretation, starting with the basic truth that Steaver and I have spoken of.

You know brother that rightly dividing the word of truth will reveal correct interpretations and applications. You and I can both testify to how many times we have given very plausible interpretations of all the passages which the opposition declares derails OSAS.

They can pick any passage from scripture and you or I would have an application for it that does not conflict with God's Grace, God's imputed righteousness. Some passages can present several plausible interpretations. However, each interpretation that would go against God's Grace must be striken from the list and here is why...

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ .

That is NOT "Jesus Christ plus YOU ". Salvation is ALL God. God draws you, God re-creates you, God preserves you to the end. God has known all that belongs to Him before the foundation of the world. And....

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son , that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ .

1Cr 1:9 God is faithful , by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Praise God and give God ALL the Glory!!

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

OSAS -

#1. The 4 Point Calvinist flavor: Get saved then live like the devil if you want - because God will not subject you to the same standard as Adam when it comes to choosing rebellion once you are in favor with God.

This makes "assurance" a sure thing since "nothing can go wrong" and all those warnings in the Bible can be ignored.

#2. The 5 Point Calvinist flavor: If you get saved and then live like the devil 10 years from then -- then your first claims to salvation are "retro-deleted" no matter how earnestly you claimed to have assurance back then.

This is OSAS at the expense of assurance.

#3. The Arminian version of OSAS - choosing salvation, then choosing to die daily, then becoming sanctified to the point that "you will not choose" otherwise ever. At each step of the way you can have assurance. But only in the last phase of being sealed into that decision irrevokably are you in a state where you will will not change.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by steaver:

Glad I am not one of those Calvinist or Arminian then! I am just a born again OSAS Christian!

The only one who has labeled me is God.

Funny - but pointless. There are NSAS statements outside of the two mentioned above. Even you have selected one of them - you just want to play games "For a while" trying to avoid having to say which way you went with this...

As I said - that makes for good entertainment for a while - but it has no substance.

Steaver said -- I am a child of the living God! I will perservere because Jesus and i are one! Give God all the Glory!

God Bless! [/QB]

And there you have the 5 point Calvinst (and the 3 point Calvinist) view of OSAS with Perseverance.

So tell me STeaver - when it turns out that ten years from now you fail to persevere - will you claim that your "Assurance" today was fake?

When you see this happen with others - do you say that about them as well?

(looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck -- it's a duck!)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Briguy]

Bob, lets deal with a concept here. There are certain things that we agree about God on. We believe that God is all knowing, all powerful, beyond the constraints of time and space. You with me so far. OK, I thought we agreed on those truths. Here is the concept then that I would like you to address. Please don't throw out verses to refute this but rather deal with the concept as I am saying that the concept takes in the scriptures as a whole. Hope that makes sense. Finally the concept: God knows the future and so knows what each person ever born will do, choose, etc... Why would God "save" a person if He knows already that they will fall away and end up not being saved in the end? We know that there is a joy in Heaven when a lost sheep is found (a person is saved). How that joy works we don't know but that scripture concept is there for us. So, a person is saved, there is joy in Heaven, but alas, the person fails on earth and is lost. So God saves the person, alows the joy, but then casts them into Hell anyway, and.... He knew all along that it would end up that way.
That is so beyond odd that it makes mr cringe to think some folks believe that. You see Bob, When God "saves" he saves forever (thus the term eternal life - which He says we can know we have). If the "saving" was based on us, then there could and would be much falling away! Thanks be to God for doing the saving!! and the "keeping"
Bob, if God did not know the future and if He had to wait to see if we were obedient or not, then losing salvation would seem to be a concept that you could make an argument for. But if you really believe that God is the one true all knowing God, then there is just no way to argue losing salvation, which is Biblically known as Eternal life, which by definition has no end.

I'll leave this here for now. I want to expand more but will save it for after you reply.

Steaver, great post and thanks for including so many verses that support what we have said. Keep fighting the good fight!!

In Christ, the anchor of my soul,
Brian

 

[steaver]

Bob...

And there you have the 5 point Calvinst (and the 3 point Calvinist) view of OSAS with Perseverance.

News Flash!! Calvin is not the one who created eternal security in Christ! I read about OSAS in God's Word long before I ever heard about Calvin.

Bob...

So tell me STeaver - when it turns out that ten years from now you fail to persevere - will you claim that your "Assurance" today was fake?

I am not an agnostic. This is like saying what if you find out when you die that Jesus was not the Christ and God does not even exist?

I KNOW whom I have believed in and I am convinced He is able to keep me, because He is in me, and I will stand with Him in His glory! Praise Jesus! There is no failure for the born of God. I do not follow a religion. I follow a living God who is in me, this is how I know I will perservere! I KNOW Him!

Bob...

When you see this happen with others - do you say that about them as well?

I have never witnessed a child of God being rejected at death. Sorry.

(looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck -- it's a duck!)

In Christ,

Bob

Not always...not all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of God. We must be very careful of false christians who sneek in unawares among us.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

I thought you would never bring that up --

Matt 7
17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

I am happy with that! -- you?

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob...

When you see this happen with others - do you say that about them as well?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steaver said
I have never witnessed a child of God being rejected at death. Sorry.

Ahhh - you are 'dancing around the question' !!

When you see a calvinist dancing you know you have them on the hook.

So again - do you hold to the perseverance doctrine yes or no?

If "YES" then we ALREADY KNOW what you will say about the Calvinist who insists on assurance today but then fails to perservere 10 years from today.

Your dancing is not a compelling response to the question. It merely allows me to point out the glaring gap in your position "again".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob...

And there you have the 5 point Calvinst (and the 3 point Calvinist) view of OSAS with Perseverance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

News Flash!! Calvin is not the one who created eternal security in Christ! I read about OSAS in God's Word long before I ever heard about Calvin.

#1. OSAS is not in the Bible so "yes" you did get it from a Calvinist!

#2. There are only those two models -- and you already confessed that you are in the 3/5 point version that says perserverance retro-deletes assurance.

#3. Your dancing around on this point is only further exposing your position.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob...

So tell me STeaver - when it turns out that ten years from now you fail to persevere - will you claim that your "Assurance" today was fake?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not an agnostic. This is like saying what if you find out when you die that Jesus was not the Christ and God does not even exist?

I KNOW whom I have believed in and I am convinced He is able to keep me, because He is in me, and I will stand with Him in His glory! Praise Jesus! There is no failure for the born of God. I do not follow a religion. I follow a living God who is in me, this is how I know I will perservere! I KNOW Him!

Oh I see ... "more dancing".

WE ALL KNOW that the 3 and 5 point Calvinists DO see Christians backslide away from perseverance AFTER having made strong confessions of assurance over decades.

We ALL KNOW what they say when they see that "well they never were saved in the first place".

ALL who hold to the doctrine of perseverance AND to OSAS do that SAME THING and we ALL KNOW IT!!

Your dancing around does not create enough fog for us to simply "forget" the obvious!!

Why do you do that??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Bob, lets deal with a concept here. There are certain things that we agree about God on. We believe that God is all knowing, all powerful, beyond the constraints of time and space. You with me so far.

Yes.

OK, I thought we agreed on those truths. Here is the concept then that I would like you to address. Please don't throw out verses to refute this

Huh??

God knows the future and so knows what each person ever born will do, choose, etc...

Agreed. That includes everything He knew about Lucifer (the sinless angel), Christ (the sinless God-man), Adam (the sinless human) and even Himself!!

He knew it all!

Why would God "save" a person if He knows already that they will fall away and end up not being saved in the end?

Why would God "create Lucifer if He KNEW Lucifer would cause the fall of 1/3 of the Angels and of mankind and the death of His Son"??

You mean "why does God create free will"??

(Just dealing with the concept here)

We know that there is a joy in Heaven when a lost sheep is found (a person is saved). How that joy works we don't know but that scripture concept is there for us. So, a person is saved, there is joy in Heaven, but alas, the person fails on earth and is lost.

We know that there was joy in heaven and the morning stars sang together at the creation of earth and sinless holy happy humanity. We know that there was no joy at the destruction of earth by the flood and all living humans except 8.

So "again" you question WHY God would allow such "changes in events" since He knew ALL??!!

(Just dealing with the concept here)

Calvinism provides no solution at all to this question as it tries to "be god" and then conclude "god would not create free will because calvinists can not figure out how He does it".

Nothing is solved by "helping God out" once you have sinful humanity by ignoring His decision to create and promote free will. "Behold I STAND at the DOOR and knock If anyone hears AND OPENS the door I WILL COME IN" Rev 3.

Think about it AT EACH step God paid a huge price for CREATING and SUSTAINING free will.

Why not "zap" Lucifer's brain before he even knew he was thinking of rebellion? Save 1/3 of the Angels, Save mankind, save the death of His Son!!??

Why not "zap" Adam's brain before he even knew he was about to choose rebellion. Save Mankind - Save the death of His Son.

Why not "Zap the jews" so that His own CHOSEN people WOULD pesevere FIRM in their faith in the Messiah - as Abrahm, Isaac Jacob, David, Samuel, John the baptizer??

The list is endless as God pays the price to promote and sustain free will.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[wopik]

well stated

 

[steaver]

Bob...

Ahhh - you are 'dancing around the question' !!

Wow! Ever hear of hypocrisy? That was quite a dance you had with me in the Predestinated=OSAS thread! How about you go back there and answer if YOU BOBRYAN ARE ONE OF THE PREDESTINATED SPOKEN OF ?........Don't bother, you already showed your hand with your dance!

God Bless!

 

[Briguy]

Bob, talk about dancing. You never dealt with my question or concept at all. You answered a question with questions and threw out some scenario's but you never answered my question or dealt with my concept. In a debate setting your answer would be a complete flop. Now, if what you are really saying is that what I said just falls into the "mysteries of God" category I can understand that thought at least. It is a cop-out but I understand it. But Bob, here is the thing. What I said as a concept, is not some mystery that can't be explained. It makes perfect sense in light of the fact that God does the saving and the keeping. Could I come to a saving faith, if God had not chose me, drawn me, and provided me with the ability to receive Him? No, left on my own accord I would have followed after the world until the day I died. When God saves, He saves forever, thus there is true joy in Heaven and a lost sheep is truely found. The joy is complete and eternal, just like the eternal life that we are told by God that we have. In fact scripture says we can KNOW we have ETERNAL LIFE. The very moment I KNOW I HAVE IT, it has to be forever or eternal has no meaning and doesn't mean eternal at all.

OK, Bob, I will give you or any other OSAS basher a chance to respond.

In Christ,
Brian