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"Eternal Security" - "Unconditional Security"
- Thread starter SpiritualMadMan
- Start date
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
My guess is, is that some people are more secure in what they know that they believe than others...
Some people assume that an Armenian, by their very natures, can _not_ have assurance of salvation!
But, John wrote to 'little children' that they could know that they have eternal life...
And, that this life is in Jesus alone...
If I base my 'salvation' on a set of man made rules... Than I have good reason not to have assurance...
If I base my Salvation on Creeds or Doctrines... I still have reasons not to have assurance...
Though, to be sure, Creeds and Doctrines can show the way...
But, they are like Marriage Licenses...
They tell you that a marrage exists...
But, they can't make the **Relationship** real...
My Assurance is based on a Relationship with Jesus...
And, irrgeardles of whether I can lose it or not lose it...
I **want** to comport myself as a Child of the King...
And, I'd sure rather have my Fathers Smile than a frown.
But, even when I got spanked growing up...
It didn't mean I ceased to be a part of my family...
Mike Sr.
Let me answer some of these for you Bob.
First let state, yea even avow, I am not a Calvinist. So, at least with me, you can drop that line, and debate from the Bible. OSAS, or eternal security, as I prefer to call it is indeed taught in the Bible. Those who do not believe display a lack of understanding in the doctrine of soteriology.
Since I don't believe in any of the points of Calvinism this point of your is moot.
Here are two points you need to consider:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--I am justified by faith and I have peace with God--forever. Do you have peace with God? For how long? Just today? Maybe for the next five minutes? How long will your peace with God last before you are condemned to Hell? I have peace with God for all eternity because it comes through our Lord Jesus Christ who paid for that peace with the payment of his blood on the cross.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--How long is eternal life? Five minutes? One hour? One week? Five years? How long does eternal life last?
Christ gave me eternal life. Eternal is eternal. Words have meanings. Eternal means forever and forever without end. If it could end at any moment it would not be eternal, it would only be temporal and Christ would be found to be a liar.
Accordingly which then do you have? There are only two choices here: eternal death or eternal life? If you don't have the gift of eternal life--OSAS, one must assume that you are eternally separated from God. The wages of sin is death to those who have not accepted God's gift of eternal life which is OSAS. It boils down to a rejection of Jesus Christ and his eternal salvation. Which do you have?
DHK
If you believe your security is only good under certain conditions(conditional security) then by definition you have denied eternal security. The people who believe this way are never at rest, never sure, never secure, and in fact have a egg shell security(they must watch where they step all times) another name that fits this type of security is behavioral salvaion since their salvation and security depends upon their behavior how they act.
Not at all. Notice what Peter said, "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - II Pet 1:10-11
Practice what qualities? Adding to your faith, virtue, to virtue, knowledge, to knowledge...
What is the obvious point? If you don't practice these things you can fall.
Does this mean we live a sinless life? Of course not. Walking in the light does not mean that we do not sin.
I Jn 1:7, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
No eggshells here. No, in the light/out of the light, saved/lost/saved/lost mentality.
No, when we are walking in the light, adding to our faith, virtue, knowledge, self-contol, steadfastness, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love, there is nothing to worry about.
Verse 9 of I Jn 1 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
What if we stop confessing our sins to God? What if we stop growing and adding to our faith, virtue...???
James 5:19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Please someone explain this to me. I have asked it again and again and nobody has ever answered it.
If OSAS were true, how could it ever be possible for a person to "have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", and "it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness". - II Pet 2:20-21
If a person has escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and OSAS is true, the that person is ALWAYS better off having known the way of righteousness.
Only when one rejects OSAS, can Peter's statement in II Pet 2;20-21 makes sense. Otherwise let the mental gymnastics begin, because this can't mean what it says.
What are you trying to say here?
If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another. That is one complete thought. There were no punctuation marks in the original documents. That statement stands alone.
The next statement stands alone.
The blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin.
That is a one time action. It does not need to be done every time one sins. He died and shed his blood once. His blood covers all my sin: past, present and future. If any verse teaches OSAS, it is this one. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin. It can't be any clearer can it? Do you believe this statement or not. It is not conditioned on the first part of the verse. It stands alone.
DHK
DHK,
Thats not what it says.
It says that IF we walk in the light AS HE (Jesus) IS IN THE LIGHT (then)we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
I Jn 1:7, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
Read the verse before it:
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Then read this:
Jn:12:35: Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
The Bible is FULL of conditions.
Claudia
Thats not what it says.
It says that IF we walk in the light AS HE (Jesus) IS IN THE LIGHT (then)we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
I Jn 1:7, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
Read the verse before it:
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Then read this:
Jn:12:35: Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
The Bible is FULL of conditions.
Claudia
mman,
Amen to what you said! 2 Peter chapter 1 makes it very clear that we must "climb Peter's Ladder" (thats what I was always taught it was called)... adding one thing to another ... and notice the top of that ladder is perfect love or "charity"... thats why Jesus said "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, love even your enemies". Then He said, in this way you will prove you are children of the heavenly King.
And it says IF we do this THEN we will be granted an entrance into heaven.
I have been reading some of the stuff you say and I'm impressed
Good job!
Claudia
Amen to what you said! 2 Peter chapter 1 makes it very clear that we must "climb Peter's Ladder" (thats what I was always taught it was called)... adding one thing to another ... and notice the top of that ladder is perfect love or "charity"... thats why Jesus said "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, love even your enemies". Then He said, in this way you will prove you are children of the heavenly King.
And it says IF we do this THEN we will be granted an entrance into heaven.
I have been reading some of the stuff you say and I'm impressed
Claudia
mima,
Thats not true at all. We just realize that if we turn our backs on Jesus then God isnt going to force us to stay with Him. He will allow us to be lost if we decide to change our mind and rebel against Him.
That does mean you have to be unsure about your salvation.
Claudia
Thats not true at all. We just realize that if we turn our backs on Jesus then God isnt going to force us to stay with Him. He will allow us to be lost if we decide to change our mind and rebel against Him.
That does mean you have to be unsure about your salvation.
Claudia
Briguy, whats the difference between that and the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world when He knew some wouldnt be saved?
1Jn:2:2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
why would Jesus waste His time on that?
Claudia
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Thanks Claudia - I guess I have been hanging around the Calvinist-vs-Arminian debate board a little too much.Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Bob Ryan,
You said:
Why would God "create Lucifer if He KNEW Lucifer would cause the fall of 1/3 of the Angels and of mankind and the death of His Son"??
that was a fantastic answer! I'd of never thought of that one
Claudia
The Bible is full of conditions taken in their proper context. The entire book of First John is written to Christians. Take a look at what Jamieson Faucett and Brown say about the verse:
The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses the Christian on a daily basis. It is not speaking of salvation but of sanctification. There is both justification and sanctification. Throughout this epistle John is writing to Christians (brethren) about the evidences of their salvation. He writes two verses later:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Would you suggest that the Apostle John ("we") is unsaved?? He is not speaking of the unsaved. He is speaking of believers coming on a day to day basis to Christ for a daily cleansing from sin. This is not speaking of salvation, but sanctification.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--This is salvation. Only the justified can have peace with God. Only the justified can be daily cleansed. Only the justified can be daily in fellowship with Christ. Only the justified can come directly to Christ and receive forgiveness of sin (1:9). John speaks to those who have already been justified, and have received forgiveness of sins; those who possess the gift of eternal life; those who are already have peace with God.
There is no condition to receiving the gift of God which is eternal life. Salvation is God's free gift to mankind, no conditions attached.
DHK
mman and Claudia, you are missing such an important truth here. To get enter Heaven one MUST BE PERFECT. To remain saved one MUST BE PERFECT. To sit at the wedding feast with Jesus one MUST BE PERFECT. This does not mean close to perfect or within one sin of perfection, it means as perfect as GOD himself. We can't earn this by things we do. Walking in the light does not mean earning our way to heaven by practicing holiness. John is making a greater point that many miss. Twice in 1 John he says that the Christian CAN'T SIN. Yes, he says in 2 places in 1 John that if we are Christians we can't sin. Now, some want to say he means practicing sin. This does nothing to help though because I know for me I still sin, it is a continuing process and therefore it is a practice. John is speaking of something deeper in 1 John. In the Law we are proved sinners and can be held accountable for our sin. In Christ, when one wears the very righteousness of God, he cannot sin. Confusing? yes, it is but it is speaking of our accoutability to the sin of the Law. Once forgive of ALL sin (as DHK pointed out so nicely) we are nevr held accountable for sin again. Sin is taken out of our eternal equation. Therefore, in that sense only, we cannot sin. We can't break the law, which is sin, because the law is fully removed. That point sums up what we have been saying in regards to OSAS. It just has to be, to make the Bible as a whole stay consistent.
Claudia, you can't answer my question with a question. Well, I guess you can but it doesn't help your case any. You answer my question first and then I will answer yours and Bobs. If it helps I will except "I don't know" if that is the only way you think you can answer. Thanks
mman, I will be back to answer your post and address a couple scriptures you used.
In Christ,
Brian
Claudia, you can't answer my question with a question. Well, I guess you can but it doesn't help your case any. You answer my question first and then I will answer yours and Bobs. If it helps I will except "I don't know" if that is the only way you think you can answer. Thanks
mman, I will be back to answer your post and address a couple scriptures you used.
In Christ,
Brian
Bob,
Thats one thing I dont know anything at all about is Calvinism and Arminian stuff. Ive heard about the tulip thing but I dont have a clue what they mean by 3 point and 5 point.
Do all Baptists believe in the Calvinism thing? and whats the difference basically between that and Arminian? You dont have to answer if its too much trouble or if it will interrupt your conversations... its just that when people talk about this I sit here with a blank look. (that was the closest thing to a blank look I could find on here)
also, what kind of software do you make? I was looking on your profile and saw that you make software. Did you know that on your profile's short statement about Jesus that its really really short, as in they cut it halfway off? LOL
I like doing web design myself.
Okay sorry for his brief intermission... now back to our regular programming.
Claudia
Thats one thing I dont know anything at all about is Calvinism and Arminian stuff. Ive heard about the tulip thing but I dont have a clue what they mean by 3 point and 5 point.
Do all Baptists believe in the Calvinism thing? and whats the difference basically between that and Arminian? You dont have to answer if its too much trouble or if it will interrupt your conversations... its just that when people talk about this I sit here with a blank look.
(that was the closest thing to a blank look I could find on here)also, what kind of software do you make? I was looking on your profile and saw that you make software. Did you know that on your profile's short statement about Jesus that its really really short, as in they cut it halfway off? LOL
I like doing web design myself.
Okay sorry for his brief intermission... now back to our regular programming.
Claudia
Briguy,
The way that I view the whole thing is that you can do absolutely nothing to earn salvation. Justification is a free gift. As you said, only the righteousness of Christ can make us acceptable to God.
But then the question is, do you LOVE God? Are you LOYAL to God? Because justification is our ticket to heaven but sanctification is our FITNESS for heaven.
1Cor:2:9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that LOVE him.
And I dont view God as sitting there just waiting for some legal excuse to condemn us, I believe He is wanting our whole heart. And so, you love God and want to please Him in every way. You will have the state of mind to want to study His Word to find out everything that you can that will please Him. You will be perfect in that way. Yes you will fall many times but that is why the Bible says:
1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
See it says DONT SIN, but if you do mess up dont worry, confess your sin, get back up and go on doing your best to please God.
Besides that, why tell us not to sin if we "cant sin" as you say?
You see, while it seems like most OSAS people view me as a "legalist" ...well I look at it just the opposite. I view them as having a legalistic view of God.
also I view doing good works as that because you love God you then want to glorify Him by doing His Law. Like showing to the world His character of love in how you act, Christlike.
Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
But just as you can fall out of love with your husband or wife, you can fall out of love with God and Jesus. Thats why Revelation says you have lost your first love and God will remove your candlestick (the light) from you if you do not repent.
...and remember, we just read that God is preparing heaven "for those tho love Him"
Jesus said, If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jn:14:15
I see God as very patient, very loving, very forgiving... over and over forgiving us, but then if we decide we dont want to give our loyalty and love to Him anymoe He will give us up... with regret of course... and sadness.
Claudia
The way that I view the whole thing is that you can do absolutely nothing to earn salvation. Justification is a free gift. As you said, only the righteousness of Christ can make us acceptable to God.
But then the question is, do you LOVE God? Are you LOYAL to God? Because justification is our ticket to heaven but sanctification is our FITNESS for heaven.
1Cor:2:9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that LOVE him.
And I dont view God as sitting there just waiting for some legal excuse to condemn us, I believe He is wanting our whole heart. And so, you love God and want to please Him in every way. You will have the state of mind to want to study His Word to find out everything that you can that will please Him. You will be perfect in that way. Yes you will fall many times but that is why the Bible says:
1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
See it says DONT SIN, but if you do mess up dont worry, confess your sin, get back up and go on doing your best to please God.
Besides that, why tell us not to sin if we "cant sin" as you say?
You see, while it seems like most OSAS people view me as a "legalist" ...well I look at it just the opposite. I view them as having a legalistic view of God.
also I view doing good works as that because you love God you then want to glorify Him by doing His Law. Like showing to the world His character of love in how you act, Christlike.
Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
But just as you can fall out of love with your husband or wife, you can fall out of love with God and Jesus. Thats why Revelation says you have lost your first love and God will remove your candlestick (the light) from you if you do not repent.
...and remember, we just read that God is preparing heaven "for those tho love Him"
Jesus said, If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jn:14:15
I see God as very patient, very loving, very forgiving... over and over forgiving us, but then if we decide we dont want to give our loyalty and love to Him anymoe He will give us up... with regret of course... and sadness.
Claudia
I so enjoy the BB. I joined for the simple reason that I desired to see other people's opinions. And I'm really seeing them. But more to the point about eternal security v/s conditional security police consider the following verse.
Second TIMOTHY 2:13 This verse speaks of a person who becomes a nonbeliever and yet Jesus who has accepted them as part of Himself, can not deny Himself. Glory to God His ways are not our ways. As a frail "grain of sand" human I am depending on the Lord Jesus Christ to keep me just as I depended on Him to save me.
Second TIMOTHY 2:13 This verse speaks of a person who becomes a nonbeliever and yet Jesus who has accepted them as part of Himself, can not deny Himself. Glory to God His ways are not our ways. As a frail "grain of sand" human I am depending on the Lord Jesus Christ to keep me just as I depended on Him to save me.