I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue

I was just wondering if there were any more scriptures like Briguy gave pointing to the 70 AD theory? Because I sure couldn't find it in the scriptures he gave on pg. 4.

Thank you,
Music4Him

 

My intention was not to slander you. If you feel that way please accept my apology, because that was not intended that way.

Personally I think you mishandled Scripture to make it prove your point.

That is obviously not a correct statement. It has been shown that signs are clearly intended for the Jews, but you continue to dance around that fact. So you continue to show that your mind is made up and will not change. Clear Scripture has been given and you just dance around it so that you can say what you just said. You don't want to see Scripture for what it says you want to prove your theology, so that's what you do. But that's what most people do. That's the "Christian" way no-a-days unfortunately. We have some of the most unteachable folks around. Every denomination has their way of doing things and everyone thinks they are right and everyone thinks they can prove their way is right.
But the bottom line is not everyone is right. And it's really not a matter of being right or wrong as much as it is a matter of truth and untruth. You obviously believe that you have the truth and have all the right verses to prove your point. So there really is no use in discussing Scripture with you because you are not as opened minded as you say you are.
Again that is not meant as a slander, that's just the way I am seeing things. And when I can sense that a person really isn't open minded about looking at Scripture then it is time for me to move on, because I don't have time to waste.

Absoultely I can. I just changed some major points in my theology about four months ago after coming across some teaching that I had never been introduced to before and the Holy Spirit convinced/convicted me that it was right and so I changed my views/theology to the truth. And it went totally against what I had been taught.

Again I am writing you off, becuase you don't even show signs of wanting to be open minded. You just throw out your proof texts without giving thought to what is being said. When that happens it's time for me to move on because that person is obviously stuck in their way of thinking.

Now this is a funny statement. You don't want to be slandered, but it's okay for you to slander me? How in the world do you know whether or not I look up the verses that are posted? That is about as arrogant a statement as you could make. And just for you information I have looked up every verse that you have thrown out, except Romans 10. I didn't look that chapter up, becuase I can tell you already that you are taking the book of Romans out of context for the most part, because Romans is not a book about salvation by grace through faith for the most part. The book does deal a little with that subject, but it is written concerning the good news after spiritual salvation.
But again I know you don't really want to deal with that, so why bother?

Yes. I've already said that. Why were they alive spiritually? Becuase the message that John the Baptist, Christ and the disciples/apostles preached was a message that could not even be understood by sprititually dead people. You hit it right on the head when you said the Jews were spiritually blinded. But blindness and death are two totally different things.

Already dealt with this issue.

And I am going to assume that you mean that they believed in the message of salvation by grace through faith, but that would be incorrect. That's not the message that was being delievered to them. The message that they were accepting or rejecting was the message of the kingdom. Matthew calls it the kingdom of heaven (the actual translation should be kingdom of the heavens). The oldest known manuscript has this rendering in John chapter 3, but the modern day translations have it as kingdom of God. But they are talking about the same thing. But that message is not the same message as eternal salvation.

I've already dealt with these issues. It is clear that Jews were the only ones that "wanted," "desired," "required," whatever you want to call it a sign. You have provided no Scripture saying that Gentiles, Greeks, unsaved or whatever you want to call it people "wanted," "desired," "required" signs. So if you can't come up with a Scripture that said this people group needed or wanted these things then the obvious conclusion, which you still want to try to dance around, is that it was only the Jews.
Signs are things that point to something that is future. So all the signs that were given were pointing to future events in the nation of Israel's future.

Pretty clear that is what the Bible says, becuase what JJump says is of no concern.

Let me ask you this question concerning that statement. What edification does the church receive today by the "gift" of tongues? What could possibly be said via tongues that can't be read plainly in the Scriptures? If you are saying that tongues give the church something that is not contained in Scripture then you are saying the church is receiving special revelation and that puts tongues on the same level as Joseph Smith's "special" revelation.

Again you don't want to be slandered, but it's okay for you to do it. Now that's just laughable.

I've never argued against signs being done in the midst of Gentiles, nor have I argued against the Gentiles manifesting signs. But the signs were for the benefit of the Jews to provoke them to jealousy.
Scripture has already been given to you and you clearly still intend to dance around it. Now you show me a Scripture where Gentiles/unsaved/Greek whatever desire, want, need a sign. You can't, because one does not exist. Therefore the logical conclusion is that only the Jews want, desire, require a sign.
It can't be any more clear that that.

And again another point was laid out that even adds to the notion that the church is not in need of sign gifts today, because we are to walk by faith, not by sight. Sign gifts are for sight-seeking people. We don't need them, nor should we desire them. We don't need physical evidences. We are supposed to believe by faith and walk by faith.

 

Before anyone else replies, all should read this. It is 3 parts and long, but you will come away with a much better understanding. Start with the first 2 links.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1871.htm

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1872.htm

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1873.htm

 

Before I say anything I looked for sites that could shed some light on John MacArthur...

There are many...

It seems that there are sites that think he is God's Gift to the church and there are sites that call him a heretic. The roughest ones calling him a heretic appeared to be Baptist Sites!...

But, I could not find one objective site to explain to me this guys persepctive...

Then I came back and read the first section...

And, it becomes obvious that he starts with an premise that is not directly or indirectly supported in Scripture...

That the tongues in the Corinthian church were satanic counterfeits...

This, IMHO and the opinions of most Pentecostals, is a dangerous thing to say and if it is not Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit borders so close as to be indistinguishable...

Further Paul didn't write one chapter to the Corinthians on Spiritual Gifts he wrote three.

Chapters 12; 13; 14 all have a bearing on the use of Spiritual Gifts in the Church...

More Later...

SMM

 

SpiritualMadMan-Hopefully you understand that one needs to know the history to properly understand many things in context of the Bible. History is certainly needed here.
You would do well to learn more of the the history, so you can know what situation he was trying to correct.
As for your comment as to there being differing opinions of John Macarthur, What is your point? You show me a great teacher that did not inspire controversy and I will show you a fool.
Go ahead and read PART 2 and then share with us.

 

On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon every person, and they "began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4.

This speaking in an "other tongue" did not come by man's own efforts, but it was a gift the Holy Spirit bestowed upon the followers of Christ when they were gathered together. "Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. . . . And they were all amazed and marvelled . . . because that every man heard them speak in his own language." Verses 5, 7, 6.

In other words it was not "manufactured tongues" like we see today, of the phony kind where people work themselves up into a frenzy.

Notice that the gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in a foreign and known human language was bestowed upon believers--not upon unbelievers.

The purpose of the gift was to give unbelievers an opportunity to hear the gospel in their own language. And so the gift itself would serve as a sign to unbelievers that the message they heard was from Heaven.

This jibberish-like ecstatic speech of the phony sort is found among atheists, agnostics and New Age Spiritualists and religions that reject Jesus Christ.

Along with this false gift of tongues comes also the gift to interpret them. Research has been done, showing that if you have multiple interpreters and they each interpret a taped session of tongues, they all come out with different interpretations of what was said. So where are they getting this "gift" to interpret?

Jesus foretold that His disciples would speak with "new tongues," "And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18.

The context of Jesus' words is His commission for His disciples to evangelize the world. The disciples would be enabled to speak with people who spoke other languages. The language would be "new" to the disciples but understood by their audience.

[ May 16, 2006, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

LINK- Please note in your bible that Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:4 "The one who speaks in a TONGUE" builds himself up" (not the church as he should be doing)

Read it again and notice that he says in verse 5 "I want you all to speak in TONGUE' S 9 (plural).

Again, this is quite simple to understand when the book is read in context. Even more so when one has evena slight knowledge of history regarding the church of Corinth.

 

You can argue for this from the example in Acts, but this is not what was going on in Corinth </font>[/QUOTE]I believe that is precisely her point..it was not the real gift (tongues) is Corinth.
By the way, not only can you "argue" thats what happened in acts, but only a fool would argue that that is not what was hapening in Acts. The scripture is quite plain, when read in context.

 

Quite frankly I don't give a rip as regards to what John MacArthur says or doesn't say about tongues...

I don't personally know John MacArthur...

I have no means to fellowship with him...

And, therefore he has no place of fellowship in my life...

You however share this Forum with me...

I am interested in what you have to say concerning the issues...

Unfortunately, if all you give me is to read John MacArthurs stuff then I have no choice but to assume that you are applying all of John MacArthirs views to all Pentecostal and Charismatic posters on this forum...

Of which I am one.

So, I ask you straight up, do you believe that all Speaking in Tongues in today's church is satanically inspired? That it is the utterance of demons?

I will further ask you this...

In Which post have I denied that Jesus was born of a Virgin named Mary...

In which post have I denied the diety of Jesus Christ...

In which post have I denied the Physical Bodily Ressurection of Jesus Christ?

In which post have I denied the Lordship, the Undisputed ruling authority in my life, of My Lord Jesus Christ?

In which post have I denied the absolute and total efficacy of the Blood of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God?

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

SMM

 

YES I believe todays version of Speaking in Tongues, the Jibberish-type is coming from Satan and not of God.

The reason they are doing this is because Satan is using and is going to use many of these people in the future to decieve.

Satan knows that if you try to get people to receive false doctrine, they will be more open to receive it if miraculous things take place.

In other words, if someone preaches a message and then starts hopping around and "being filled with the Holy Ghost" begins "speaking in tongues" and receiving "messages from God" the people will fall for it, and thus think the message the preacher is preaching is ALSO from God.

1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Mt:24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Rv:13:14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rv:16:14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

 

This is an article I wrote about New Age "Channeling" ...the New Age Movement is ancient Spiritualism in a new package...


"He shall honour the God of forces: a god whom his fathers knew not"... he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws Dan:7:25;11:38


In the mid Nineteenth Century there was an American outbreak of Spiritualism, and now a 'New Wave' of Spiritualism is sweeping across America in the form of New Age 'Channeling'. Channeling is the communication of information to or through a human being from a source that is said to exist on some other level or dimension of reality than the physical.

There is an important difference between that Spiritualism that was practiced during the mid Nineteenth Century with their seances and the New Age Channeling Movement today. During the old style seances the Medium supposedly conjured up the Spirit of a deceased Relative, specifically to communicate a message of a personal nature, while modern Channeling involves communicating with a 'Spirit' who is an unrelated Being who communicates messages of guidance, knowledge or direction for the New Ager.

These channeled Beings will give discourses on the nature of God, Humanity, and the Universe, during which time they will always seem to confirm the New Age views on these subjects. They present the "All is One" concept in the most alluring manner, and seem to validate that the New Age belief system was right all along. Satan's new method is to try to make Spiritualism seem "Christian", and of course, there is no true Biblical support for the New Age views; and so the Devil uses 'The Spirits' to confirm these views instead. It is the only 'proof' that they have!

Beside the fact that the Spirits seem to confirm their pantheistic worldview, New Agers also love to talk to these 'Spirit Beings' because it gives them a feeling of having a God to talk to, which they otherwise would not have. Their impersonal view of God as a 'Force of Nature' leaves them without a personal God to listen to them when they need an all-knowing Being to know what's inside their hearts. They may be able to talk about God as a force but they cannot talk to God as a personal Being. The New Age practice of communicating with their own Inner Self or Higher Self helps to take the edge off their loneliness but channeling the Spirit World offers them an exciting and exotic option -allowing them to talk to actual "Beings" who will talk back to them and even answer their questions about life.

Former Top New Age Leader Randall Baer tells the story of his experiences with some of these channeled Spirits in his book Inside the New Age Nightmare. (Please keep in mind that any time I refer to these Spirit Beings that they are merely demons posing as Spiritual Guides). Randall Baer began to get more and more drawn into the lies of these Spirit Entities as time went by. Let's read about his story:


"The spirit would began to speak to us (he and his girlfriend, Vicki) explicitly and directly. All of a sudden Vicki would go into a trance. Then a Spirit would come into her body and animatedly speak. I couldn't believe what was happening.
These electrically compelled spirits would come in and identify themselves, and then proceed to convey some august universal message of great import. I found that I even could converse with these 'high and wide' spirit-entities. They would answer my questions with what sounded like great wisdom and supernatural prescience. The variety of spirits coming and going was astounding- I talked with 'Eagle', 'White Cloud', 'Serapis Bey', 'Ascended Master Kut-humi', 'Mary', 'Golden-helmeted Ones', 'Green Ray Master', and a host of others. The power emanating from these spirits was overwhelming and entrancingly intoxicating.

For hours at a time, spirit after spirit would come into Vicki's body and speak through her. She was totally oblivious to what was being said and done. It was like she was tucked away somewhere while the spirits temporarily would 'use her vehicle', as they said, to speak to me.

I was flabbergasted by what they told me. Distilling the volumes of information, essentially this array of exalted 'Universal Masters' and 'Servants of the Light' told me this: that Vicki and I, and a few select others like us around the world, were receiving a 'grand dispensation' to be the vanguard 'Bearers of the New Age Light' to lead the world into the fast-approaching 'Golden Age of Oneness'." Randall Baer, Inside the New Age Nightmare, pg. 29


So what is the real source of these intrusions from the Spirit World? Why is there such an explosion of these experiences at this time in mankind's history? What Doctrines are these Spirit Entities teaching? At this time, we will take a look at some of the most popular New Age Channelers and their Spirit Entities who speak through them; and after that, we will go into more detail about the messages that they are bringing to mankind.

RAMTHA- CHANNELED BY J.Z.KNIGHT

In a small town called Yelm, Washington there was a housewife by the name of J.Z. Knight, who is a pretty honey-blonde 40 year old woman... someone you wouldn't expect to be channeling a supposedly 35,000 year old Spirit named Ramtha.

Ramtha, who calls himself "The Enlightened One" is said to be one of those Ascended Masters who have evolved into a God. Speaking through J.Z. Knight, Ramtha said:


"I am a sovereign entity who lived a long time ago upon Earth. In that life I did not die: I ascended, for I learned to harness the power of my mind and to take my body with me into an unseen dimension of life. I am now a part of an unseen brotherhood who love mankind greatly. We are your brothers who hear your prayers and your meditations and observe your movements to and fro.
All of you are very important and precious to us, because the life that flows through you and the thought that is coming to every one of you however you entertain it, is the intelligence and the life-force that you have termed God. It is the essence that connects all of us, not only to those upon your plane, but to those in untold universes which you have not yet the eyes to see.

Throughout history, we have tried many different avenues to remind you of your greatness, your power, and the foreverness of your life. We have been king, conquerer, crucified Christ, teacher, friend, philosopher- anything that would permit knowledge to occur. At times we have intervened in your affairs to keep you from annihilating yourselves, so that life here would continue to provide a playground for your experiences and your evolution into joy." -Ramtha, Channeled by J.Z. Knight, as reported in New Age Catalog, pg. 5

This Spirit Being had come to J.Z. Knight, as a result of her fooling around with occult things. She and her husband had been dabbling with Pyramid Power. According to New Agers, pyramids and triangles are believed to possess certain special powers. Some wear miniature pyramid around their necks to bring positive energy forces into their bodies. Others make paper or cardboard pyramids and place them near foodstuffs, believing them to have preservative powers.

It was while J..Z. Knight and her husband were making paper pyramids to put in their kitchen cupboards to preserve food that the demon-spirit Ramtha appeared in their kitchen as a "huge being of light". Please understand that in nearly every case- these "Spirit Beings" come because someone is dabbling in Occultism. In commenting upon the demon-possessed man that Jesus had healed, Christian Writer, Ellen White said:

"He had placed himself on the enemy's ground, and Satan had taken possession of all his faculties. The tempter had allured him with many charming presentations; but when once the wretched man was in his power, the fiend became relentless in his cruelty, and terrible in his visitations. So it will be with all who yield to evil; the fascinating pleasure of their early career ends in the darkness of despair or the madness of a ruined soul." -Desire of Ages, pg. 253.
This is why All Christians who are in any way getting involved in Occult techniques such as Visualization, Eastern Meditation, Relaxation techniques, mood-altering music, Whole Brain Learning, or any of the other New Age practices, need to wake up and remove their feet from off of Satan's territory, because by doing those things, you are virtually inviting demon control!

Now, getting back to J.Z. Knight and her initial encounter with Ramtha. The Spirit Entity Ramtha promised this housewife that he would be her guide on her journey to 'Becoming a God.' He also promised to use her as a channel of blessing to the world. And now, he even channels his 'ancient wisdom' through her in seminars, and has even done this on National Television. Ramtha the Spirit Entity is also known as The Ram. The Ram is also known as the goat, which has long been a symbol of Satan. "The Ram" announced, through J.Z. Knight that "In the seed of Lucifer lies God and demons".

Before J.Z. Knight had been taken over by "Ramtha" -according to one of her High School former Classmates, Sandy Fallis, Knight was once at a Christian Prayer Meeting and she suddenly began speaking in a strange male voice, who identified itself as a demon named Demias, said Fallis in a segment of ABC's television show 20/20. She was holding her neck, according to Sandy Fallis, and saying "I can't breathe!" and at that point the male voice broke out again and said, "You want this body and you can't have it!" J.Z. Knight denies this incident ever occurred, however.

When J.Z. Knight was once on television being interviewed, she entered a trance, in order for the entity Ramtha to be channeled through her. She became very still and began to breathe deeply (which is an Eastern Meditation Occult technique). She then contorted, tossed her head around as if being animated like a puppet, and then strange growling sounds were heard, as she began to be transformed into Ramtha. She stood erect, and acted like a marionette with jerking motions. Everybody in the audience sat spellbound, as if hanging upon every word that Ramtha uttered. They seemed to see it as a "Message from God".

J.Z. Knight now travels from city to city, typically introducing Ramtha by entering, into an altered state of consciousness, beginning to shake, and then suddenly going limp. Ramtha then manifests himself through her and starts spouting off his typical New Age "wisdom", that the audience has paid large amounts of money to hear. The message usually revolves around the idea that we are all Gods, and that even Lucifer is "Divine". Knight now lives in Yelm, Washington, and scores of followers flock there to this farming community of about 1,400 people 55 miles south of Seattle to be close to Ramtha the Spirit Guide. She even has a following among Hollywood's elite, including Linda Evans, from the T.V. Show Dynasty. One published report claims that Evans has already bought a $1.5 million home about a thirty minute drive from J.Z. Knight's residence.


JANE ROBERTS AND SETH

Psychologist Jane Roberts, back in the 1960's, first met a Spirit who identified himself as Seth, when she started experimenting with an Ouija Board. An Ouija Board is a mechanism that is used to contact the Spirit World and upon it there are letters with which the Spirits can spell out messages. The Board also has the words Yes and No upon it. If you will recall, J.Z. Knight first had her meeting with the Spirit "Ramtha" after fooling around with Occult Pyramids. Being in any way connected with occultic practices leaves one vulnerable to demonic forces, and can become extremely dangerous!

Miss Roberts was thereafter able to discard her Ouija Board and speak on her own for the Spirit 'Seth', who from then on seemed to possess her. Jane Roberts then went on to publish thousands of pages known as The Seth Materials, which became quite famous. She also went on to conduct over 500 sessions with Seth. Her material was published in a series and became available in Book Stores all over America, and were an overnight sensation among New Agers and others who were interested in the Occult.

Soon, those who had read the Seth Materials began to meet at local homes all around the United States and even overseas to study these materials in groups. Seth told his followers that doing Eastern Meditation was very important for your Spiritual growth and would aid them in contacting the Spirits.

Each year in Austin, Texas, Seth disciples from around the world gather to study the Seth materials in depth, and to fellowship together. At one of these particular yearly meetings, the Seth followers were taught how to speak in tongues and to combine this with holy dancing. This of course, is what is done in Pentecostal Holiness Churches, which is in fact- Spiritualism.

During these tongue-speaking sessions, the Seth disciples were instructed on how to perform "Sumari", which supposedly is a language that is not really "language" in the normal sense of the word. Its importance is upon the sounds rather than upon its written patterns, and these sounds supposedly have a certain "power" when spoken.

Jane Roberts, channeler of the Seth Entity, described her first experience in speaking in Tongues:


"I heard a babble of voices in strange languages. I didn't know what I was supposed to do with them, but I knew that something was expected of me. Suddenly I began to chant words in a loud, ringing voice: 'Sumari, Ispania, Wena nefarie, Dena dena nefarie, Lona, Lana, Lana Sumare.' Then in a whisper someone else said in my voice, in other words coming from my mouth, but it was someone from inside of me, 'I am Sumari, you are Sumari, throughout the ages you have been Sumari. I am acquainting you with your heritage.' At the same time a delicious warmth filled my body. It came like a glow, from inside, radiating outward"
Of course, this was a demon who was speaking through Jane Roberts! The Devil used Roberts in a big way, because this widespread interest in Seth gave rise to the current channeling movement. With Seth was opened a whole new chapter in the history of American Spiritualism.

It used to be that New Agers had to go see an 'all-wise Guru' for instruction in Spiritual matters; but now you no longer needed a spiritually qualified instructor. You could listen to a channeled entity, who of course had "all the answers" about life. The Channeler need not even be qualified as a teacher, because the entity who was speaking through him or her was believed to be the "wise teacher" who was actually doing the teaching.


Then there's Jach Pursel, who channels an entity called Lazaris. Jach and his wife Peny were very involved in doing Eastern Meditation, but Jach had a reoccuring problem with falling off to sleep after a certain amount of time during these Meditation sessions. But not one certain time! One time when Jach had been doing his Eastern Meditation and had seemed to doze off, he suddenly began speaking in a strange voice! His wife Peny started asking questions and this "voice" who was speaking through Jach would answer. She became convinced that another Being had taken over her husband's body and was talking through him. This same thing happened again and again, but Jach seemed to be unable to remember any of it.

Jach chose to name the entity Lazaris, and eventually- channeling Lazaris became a common occurrence for him. He started giving public lectures, weekend workshops, and private consultations, with Lazaris doing all of the talking. Lazaris, the Spirit Entity claims that he is there to "love you when you're ready to be loved" and that "he will guide you on your spiritual journey home to God! Goddess! The All, or whatever you choose to call it".

Lazaris also talks about growing towards your magnificent Higher Divine Self and even leads the listener step by step in preparation to meet his or her "Higher Self" (the Divine part of you that resides within, supposedly). He then further instructs on how to maintain a continuing relationship with "It". Of course, this demonic entity is in reality leading people to converse with other demonic presences, who mask themselves as the "Higher Self" within.

I have described to you just a few of the more popular channeled "Spirits". There are a great variety of others, however...

 

YES I believe todays version of Speaking in Tongues, the Jibberish-type is coming from Satan and not of God.
</font>[/QUOTE]ALL tongues or just the gibberish?

SMM

 

I stopped reading here. I did summarize my own points earlier. So clearly they would be "junk" to you as well.

 

Quite frankly I don't give a rip as regards to what John MacArthur says or doesn't say about tongues...

I don't personally know John MacArthur...

I have no means to fellowship with him...

And, therefore he has no place of fellowship in my life...

You however share this Forum with me...

I am interested in what you have to say concerning the issues...

Unfortunately, if all you give me is to read John MacArthurs stuff then I have no choice but to assume that you are applying all of John MacArthirs views to all Pentecostal and Charismatic posters on this forum...

Of which I am one.

So, I ask you straight up, do you believe that all Speaking in Tongues in today's church is satanically inspired? That it is the utterance of demons?

I will further ask you this...

In Which post have I denied that Jesus was born of a Virgin named Mary...

In which post have I denied the diety of Jesus Christ...

In which post have I denied the Physical Bodily Ressurection of Jesus Christ?

In which post have I denied the Lordship, the Undisputed ruling authority in my life, of My Lord Jesus Christ?

In which post have I denied the absolute and total efficacy of the Blood of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God?

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

SMM </font>[/QUOTE]Well, thanks indeed for asking me straight up. I believe that the jibberish that people speak, is not holy spirit inspired. I believe Acts spells out exactly what the gift of Tongues is. It is not a 2 or 3 syllable sentence. Have you had your tongue interpretated yet? Have you had it interpretated by separate interpretators? Were they in concert on the meaning?
As for your statement of faith, I never questioned anyone's faith. Nor am I one of the silly egotistical persons who acts like a child over the issue. I would not say that because I differ with someone on the understanding of spiritual gifts, that they are not of Christ. Nor would any mature Christian take such stance.

 

Balion, John McArthur is not an expert on the gifts of the Spirit. His roots are in the Church of Christ. I know that now he is some other denomination, but he still has the root of not believing in the power of the Holy Spirit.

He simply does not have all the facts about tongues, or any other gift. It is sad that you take someones word for what the scripture says instead of reading the bible and letting the Holy Spirit interpret it for you.

Try that and let me know how it works.

Peace,

Tam

 

Link as I stated earlier there is no reason to continue with you, because all we are doing is a circular conversation.

The Bible says that Jews require a sign. Nowhere in the Bible does it says that Gentiles require a sign. You have yet to show that Scripture.

You did argue that I said signs were not done by Gentiles or in their presence, which is simply not the case. I readily admit that signs were done by Gentiles and in their midst, but it was for the purpose of the Jews. Now did the Gentiles benefit from it. I'm sure they did, but the purpose was for the Jews.

The Jews require a sign. No one else. So why do something for someone that they don't even care if they have it or not. This is plain teaching of Scripture that you are choosing not to see.

Therefore there is no reason for me to continue in this conversation.

I looked at the Romans 15 passage and you are drawing a conclusion that I don't think is possible to draw. You are seeing a list of items that Christ did in Paul and then you are tying two things in the list together, because it "proves" your point. However, there is nothing in that passage that ties those to things together. It doesn't say that those signs and wonders were done to produce obedience in the Gentiles.

Signs and wonders are just one in a list of things that Christ accomplished in Paul. The connection is that Christ did all these things through Paul.

So that line of reasoning holds no water at all.

The Jews were spiritually alive. There are a number of ways to show this, but let me just briefly say this...Jesus said He came to seek and save that which was lost. He also said that He came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Well if something is lost that means it has to have previously been in the possession of the owner. So they weren't dead they were lost. He calls the house of Israel lost sheep. They were His sheep and they used to be in the fold, but they have wandered off and He is here to draw them back in.

That should be sufficient to show that the Jews were spiritually alive.

I asked you how the church was edified by tongues today and you gave some very general responses. But in the responses that you gave you are using tongues in a way that Scripture does not use them.

Tongues were known languages that were spoken by people that were not learned in that language by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So the idea of tongues even being needed in America is kind of silly. People that are going to churches speak the same languages.

Let's just use your example of someone being called to pastor a church. Tongues are not needed to reveal to that person whether or not they are called to preach. The Bible tells us that He causes us to will and to work for His purpose. The Bible says that if a man desires the office he desires a good thing. So we can see from just those two Scriptures that God causes us to will and that if we feel/sense whatever you want to say that God is leading us in that direction that it is a good thing.

Now how do we know if it is God or if it is self, or if it is demonic? Well there's a list of qualifications that are given. If you qualify on the list it's from God if your motives are pure, if you don't qualify then there's a number of things that could be at hand.

The simple matter is that everything that we need to walk in the Spirit and to live by faith is given in the Bible. We don't even need tongues for "special" revelation.

You are right in that the Bible doesn't directly affirm the negative of that statement. However there is no verse given that says Gentiles require a sign, so the logical conclusion is that signs are just for the Jews. That's why this discussion has gone circular. You are not going to see things any other way than what you see them. And that's fine. That's between you and God. I don't have time to go in circles.

The bottom line is one of us has the Truth and one of us does not. And we will both have to answer for what we believed and why.

It seems pretty cut and dry that signs were for the Jews only. Signs were done among Gentiles and even by Gentiles, but it was to provoke Israel to jealousy, becuase they knew signs were for them and here this group of "dogs" was getting things that were intended for them and were doing things that only they were supposed to do.

Obviously not even that worked as Jews continued to reject the message of the kingdom.

You have to remember what the history of Israel was all about. They were promised phyiscal promises. And therefore they needed physical assurances that what was being spoken was the truth.

So the signs were given of people being healed, showing how the nation of Israel would be healed if they would repent. Demons were driven out showing the sign of deliverance that would be given to the nation of Israel if they would repent. Thousands of people were healed supernaturally showing that if the nation would repent they would be taken care of supernaturally. Dead people were raised showing that the nation of Israel would be brought to life if they would repent. Tongues were used so that Jews of other nations that didn't speak Greek or Hebrew could here the gospel message and believe and repent.

Let me leave you with three items that I would encourage you to read through that goes much more indepth than what I am able to on a message board.

http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/phtm4/SWM1.htm

http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/phtm4/SWM2.htm

http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/phtm4/SWM3.htm

 

Ballion said:Have you had it interpretated by to separate interpretators? Were they in concert on the meaning?

1st Cor-27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

There is one of your errors.

The scripture says let one interpret, not 2 or 3!!

Peace,

Tam