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I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue
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My intention was not to slander you. If you feel that way please accept my apology, because that was not intended that way.
Personally I think you mishandled Scripture to make it prove your point.
That is obviously not a correct statement. It has been shown that signs are clearly intended for the Jews, but you continue to dance around that fact. So you continue to show that your mind is made up and will not change. Clear Scripture has been given and you just dance around it so that you can say what you just said. You don't want to see Scripture for what it says you want to prove your theology, so that's what you do. But that's what most people do. That's the "Christian" way no-a-days unfortunately. We have some of the most unteachable folks around. Every denomination has their way of doing things and everyone thinks they are right and everyone thinks they can prove their way is right.
But the bottom line is not everyone is right. And it's really not a matter of being right or wrong as much as it is a matter of truth and untruth. You obviously believe that you have the truth and have all the right verses to prove your point. So there really is no use in discussing Scripture with you because you are not as opened minded as you say you are.
Again that is not meant as a slander, that's just the way I am seeing things. And when I can sense that a person really isn't open minded about looking at Scripture then it is time for me to move on, because I don't have time to waste.
Absoultely I can. I just changed some major points in my theology about four months ago after coming across some teaching that I had never been introduced to before and the Holy Spirit convinced/convicted me that it was right and so I changed my views/theology to the truth. And it went totally against what I had been taught.
Again I am writing you off, becuase you don't even show signs of wanting to be open minded. You just throw out your proof texts without giving thought to what is being said. When that happens it's time for me to move on because that person is obviously stuck in their way of thinking.
Now this is a funny statement. You don't want to be slandered, but it's okay for you to slander me? How in the world do you know whether or not I look up the verses that are posted? That is about as arrogant a statement as you could make. And just for you information I have looked up every verse that you have thrown out, except Romans 10. I didn't look that chapter up, becuase I can tell you already that you are taking the book of Romans out of context for the most part, because Romans is not a book about salvation by grace through faith for the most part. The book does deal a little with that subject, but it is written concerning the good news after spiritual salvation.
But again I know you don't really want to deal with that, so why bother?
Yes. I've already said that. Why were they alive spiritually? Becuase the message that John the Baptist, Christ and the disciples/apostles preached was a message that could not even be understood by sprititually dead people. You hit it right on the head when you said the Jews were spiritually blinded. But blindness and death are two totally different things.
Already dealt with this issue.
And I am going to assume that you mean that they believed in the message of salvation by grace through faith, but that would be incorrect. That's not the message that was being delievered to them. The message that they were accepting or rejecting was the message of the kingdom. Matthew calls it the kingdom of heaven (the actual translation should be kingdom of the heavens). The oldest known manuscript has this rendering in John chapter 3, but the modern day translations have it as kingdom of God. But they are talking about the same thing. But that message is not the same message as eternal salvation.
I've already dealt with these issues. It is clear that Jews were the only ones that "wanted," "desired," "required," whatever you want to call it a sign. You have provided no Scripture saying that Gentiles, Greeks, unsaved or whatever you want to call it people "wanted," "desired," "required" signs. So if you can't come up with a Scripture that said this people group needed or wanted these things then the obvious conclusion, which you still want to try to dance around, is that it was only the Jews.
Signs are things that point to something that is future. So all the signs that were given were pointing to future events in the nation of Israel's future.
Pretty clear that is what the Bible says, becuase what JJump says is of no concern.
Let me ask you this question concerning that statement. What edification does the church receive today by the "gift" of tongues? What could possibly be said via tongues that can't be read plainly in the Scriptures? If you are saying that tongues give the church something that is not contained in Scripture then you are saying the church is receiving special revelation and that puts tongues on the same level as Joseph Smith's "special" revelation.
Again you don't want to be slandered, but it's okay for you to do it. Now that's just laughable.
I've never argued against signs being done in the midst of Gentiles, nor have I argued against the Gentiles manifesting signs. But the signs were for the benefit of the Jews to provoke them to jealousy.
Scripture has already been given to you and you clearly still intend to dance around it. Now you show me a Scripture where Gentiles/unsaved/Greek whatever desire, want, need a sign. You can't, because one does not exist. Therefore the logical conclusion is that only the Jews want, desire, require a sign.
It can't be any more clear that that.
And again another point was laid out that even adds to the notion that the church is not in need of sign gifts today, because we are to walk by faith, not by sight. Sign gifts are for sight-seeking people. We don't need them, nor should we desire them. We don't need physical evidences. We are supposed to believe by faith and walk by faith.
Before anyone else replies, all should read this. It is 3 parts and long, but you will come away with a much better understanding. Start with the first 2 links.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1871.htm
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1872.htm
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1873.htm
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1871.htm
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1872.htm
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1873.htm
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Before I say anything I looked for sites that could shed some light on John MacArthur...
There are many...
It seems that there are sites that think he is God's Gift to the church and there are sites that call him a heretic. The roughest ones calling him a heretic appeared to be Baptist Sites!...
But, I could not find one objective site to explain to me this guys persepctive...
Then I came back and read the first section...
That the tongues in the Corinthian church were satanic counterfeits...
This, IMHO and the opinions of most Pentecostals, is a dangerous thing to say and if it is not Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit borders so close as to be indistinguishable...
Further Paul didn't write one chapter to the Corinthians on Spiritual Gifts he wrote three.
Chapters 12; 13; 14 all have a bearing on the use of Spiritual Gifts in the Church...
More Later...
SMM
There are many...
It seems that there are sites that think he is God's Gift to the church and there are sites that call him a heretic. The roughest ones calling him a heretic appeared to be Baptist Sites!...
But, I could not find one objective site to explain to me this guys persepctive...
Then I came back and read the first section...
And, it becomes obvious that he starts with an premise that is not directly or indirectly supported in Scripture...
That the tongues in the Corinthian church were satanic counterfeits...
This, IMHO and the opinions of most Pentecostals, is a dangerous thing to say and if it is not Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit borders so close as to be indistinguishable...
Further Paul didn't write one chapter to the Corinthians on Spiritual Gifts he wrote three.
Chapters 12; 13; 14 all have a bearing on the use of Spiritual Gifts in the Church...
More Later...
SMM
SpiritualMadMan-Hopefully you understand that one needs to know the history to properly understand many things in context of the Bible. History is certainly needed here.
You would do well to learn more of the the history, so you can know what situation he was trying to correct.
As for your comment as to there being differing opinions of John Macarthur, What is your point? You show me a great teacher that did not inspire controversy and I will show you a fool.
Go ahead and read PART 2 and then share with us.
You would do well to learn more of the the history, so you can know what situation he was trying to correct.
As for your comment as to there being differing opinions of John Macarthur, What is your point? You show me a great teacher that did not inspire controversy and I will show you a fool.
Go ahead and read PART 2 and then share with us.
On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon every person, and they "began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4.
This speaking in an "other tongue" did not come by man's own efforts, but it was a gift the Holy Spirit bestowed upon the followers of Christ when they were gathered together. "Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. . . . And they were all amazed and marvelled . . . because that every man heard them speak in his own language." Verses 5, 7, 6.
In other words it was not "manufactured tongues" like we see today, of the phony kind where people work themselves up into a frenzy.
Notice that the gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in a foreign and known human language was bestowed upon believers--not upon unbelievers.
The purpose of the gift was to give unbelievers an opportunity to hear the gospel in their own language. And so the gift itself would serve as a sign to unbelievers that the message they heard was from Heaven.
This jibberish-like ecstatic speech of the phony sort is found among atheists, agnostics and New Age Spiritualists and religions that reject Jesus Christ.
Along with this false gift of tongues comes also the gift to interpret them. Research has been done, showing that if you have multiple interpreters and they each interpret a taped session of tongues, they all come out with different interpretations of what was said. So where are they getting this "gift" to interpret?
Jesus foretold that His disciples would speak with "new tongues," "And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18.
The context of Jesus' words is His commission for His disciples to evangelize the world. The disciples would be enabled to speak with people who spoke other languages. The language would be "new" to the disciples but understood by their audience.
[ May 16, 2006, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
This speaking in an "other tongue" did not come by man's own efforts, but it was a gift the Holy Spirit bestowed upon the followers of Christ when they were gathered together. "Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. . . . And they were all amazed and marvelled . . . because that every man heard them speak in his own language." Verses 5, 7, 6.
In other words it was not "manufactured tongues" like we see today, of the phony kind where people work themselves up into a frenzy.
Notice that the gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in a foreign and known human language was bestowed upon believers--not upon unbelievers.
The purpose of the gift was to give unbelievers an opportunity to hear the gospel in their own language. And so the gift itself would serve as a sign to unbelievers that the message they heard was from Heaven.
This jibberish-like ecstatic speech of the phony sort is found among atheists, agnostics and New Age Spiritualists and religions that reject Jesus Christ.
Along with this false gift of tongues comes also the gift to interpret them. Research has been done, showing that if you have multiple interpreters and they each interpret a taped session of tongues, they all come out with different interpretations of what was said. So where are they getting this "gift" to interpret?
Jesus foretold that His disciples would speak with "new tongues," "And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18.
The context of Jesus' words is His commission for His disciples to evangelize the world. The disciples would be enabled to speak with people who spoke other languages. The language would be "new" to the disciples but understood by their audience.
[ May 16, 2006, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
You can argue for this from the example in Acts, but this is not what was going on in Corinth. Paul states some specific functions of tongues.
- Edifies the speaker
- With interpretation edifies the church
- Is a sign to unbelievers (in a context that shows unbelievers not believing tongues as the OT predicts.)
Notice in Acts 2, many responded to tongues with scoffing. That still happens today. Paul does not say tongues are for evangelism, and even warns against everyone speaking in tongues when an unbeliever or unlearned person comes in.
LINK- Please note in your bible that Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:4 "The one who speaks in a TONGUE" builds himself up" (not the church as he should be doing)
Read it again and notice that he says in verse 5 "I want you all to speak in TONGUE' S 9 (plural).
Again, this is quite simple to understand when the book is read in context. Even more so when one has evena slight knowledge of history regarding the church of Corinth.
Read it again and notice that he says in verse 5 "I want you all to speak in TONGUE' S 9 (plural).
Again, this is quite simple to understand when the book is read in context. Even more so when one has evena slight knowledge of history regarding the church of Corinth.
You can argue for this from the example in Acts, but this is not what was going on in Corinth </font>[/QUOTE]I believe that is precisely her point..it was not the real gift (tongues) is Corinth.
By the way, not only can you "argue" thats what happened in acts, but only a fool would argue that that is not what was hapening in Acts. The scripture is quite plain, when read in context.
To J Jump
First, let me say if I have been a bit terse with you, I apologize. Sometimes I have a tendancy to get straight to the point, and if I attack an idea you have presented, I don't mean it as a personal attack.
I wrote,
If I am wrong about something, and you can show me from the Bible, I will change my point of view.
The clear scripture that has been presented on this issue is the quote from Romans 15 in my previous post. Paul did signs and wonders to make Gentiles obedient.
Secondly, you have not dealt with another key point. This is the fact that tongues with interpretation edifies the church. Is edifying the church the same thing as being a sign? Clearly edification and being a sign are separate concepts.
I Corinthians 12 lists tongues among the gifts given to the body of Christ 'to profit withall'. One purpose of tongues is to 'profit withall.' Tongues are given to edify the body of Christ.
If the Bible teaches that tongues are for a sign, does it stand to reason that tongues are ONLY for a sign? No, of course not. That is just bad logic. But that is the stance you are taking.
Do you agree or disagree with the scripture that teaches that tongues are given 'to profit withall'? Do you agree or disagree with Paul's teaching that tongues and interpretation are to be given to edify the church? If you agree, then explain to me how edifying the church is the same thing as being a sign. If you cannot, acknowledge that tongues has a purpose other than being a sign.
Tongues can have more than one purpose you know. If one purpose is to be a sign, that does not mean that tongues can't also be for edification. This is just an issue of logic here.
Also, Paul's point in I Corinthians 14 is that tongues are for a sign to 'them that believe not.' That is the conclusion Paul draws. Why couldn't Paul apply the principle of this verse to Gentiles? Doesn't he apply quotes from the OT to Gentiles in Romans 9? To whom was the verse written
For example, I showed you from Romans 15 that Paul did signs to make Gentiles obedient. SMM showed you that Paul did signs among the Gentiles after he had stopped preaching to the Jews in a particular city.
I have changed my stance on a number of issues when I saw I was wrong through scripture. In a discussion like this, you have to deal with the specific points if you want to learn anything.
Btw, was this related to the topic at hand?
If you disagree with one of my points, deal with it specifically.
As Paul says in Romans, quoting Hosea,
The JUST shall LIVE by FAITH.
The book is about justification, living (spiritually) and faith. It deals a LOT with the subject of being spiritually alive. In fact, that is a major theme in the book, that we are justified and made spiritually alive by faith. Romans 10 deals with this specific subject.
The Law, after all, said 'choose life.' Adam 'died' when he sinned. Romans deals with issues like these. Romans 5 talks about death coming to all men through Adam. Romans 6 talks about being dead to sin and alive unto God. Romans 7 talks about how sin killed him, taking advantage by the commandment. Romans 8 talks about the body being dead because of sin, and the spirit being alive because of righteousness, and the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead bringing life to our mortal bodies. Romans 10 talks about life coming through either living by faith, or by the works of the law (not possible.) Romans 11 talks about the receiving of the Jews being life from the dead.
So life and death is a big theme in Romans, and the answer to our previous debate on the subject is very clear in Romans 10 if you would bother to look it up.
Like I said earlier, I would not say those who accepted John's baptism were 'dead' after they repented. But before, they were in sin. Their sins were not forgiven-- hence the baptism. Show me scripture that says that the spiritually dead cannot understand the message.
And think about the ramifications of what you are saying. If, today, the dead cannot understand the Gospel, wouldn't the conclusion you draw be that those who becomes Christians are spiritually alive BEFORE they receive the message? How does this square with all of Paul's writings on the subject?
Abraham was justified by faith when he believed the promises of God that foreshadowed Christ. The Bible does not tell us if Abraham specifically understood what would happen on the cross. But he was still justified by faith.
David also was forgiven apart from the works of the law, as Paul explains in the same passage about Abraham being justified by faith in Romans 4. The implication seems to be that David was justified by faith as well.
If Jesus had done His mighty works in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Paul did signs and wonders among the Gentiles to make them obedient. Paul did signs among Gentiles in a city after he told the Jews he would go to the Gentiles. And you disregard all this evidence based on what? On the fact that Jews want signs? Can't you see there is no logical connection between Jews requiring a sign and arguing that God does not do signs for Gentiles?
Read I Corinthians 14 and try to find what the predictive sign is in regard to tongues. Paul makes a logical connection in verse 22 between the OT prophecy about tongues and tongues being a sign by using the word 'wherefore.'
The OT predicts that when God speaks through other tongues 'and yet for all that, ye shall not hear Me.' This prophecy is fulfilled when we see the uninstructed or unbelievers hear speaking in tongues and say 'ye are mad.'
And therefore, everyone getting together and speaking in tongues (without interpretation) in church is not appropriate. This is one reason. Another reason is that tongues without interpretation do not edify the church, and all things must be done unto edifying.
There is nothing about 70 AD in the passage. There is nothing about God not dealing with the Jews anymore in the context of the passage. This is not the point Paul makes when he interprets the Isaiah passage. He makes his own point.
I wrote,
You are arguing that tongues are ONLY for a sign.
I have referred you to scripture that proves that tongues functions:
1. to profit the whole body.
2. to edify the speaker.
3. to edify the church if accompanied with interpretation.
4. as a sign to them that believe not.
So, number 4 is not the only purpose of tongues. Purposes 1-3 are purposes of tongues as well.
The Bible does not teach that God only speaks through the Bible. In fact, it refers to many true prophetic revelations not found in scripture. For example, the book of Iddo the seer, Micaiah's other prophecies to king Ahab, the sealed up thunder clap in revelation that John was not allowed to write down. In the last days, God has spoken to us by His Son. Jesus' every action was a revelation of God. Yet according to John, he supposed the world could not contain the books if all Christ's actions were written down. So they are not all in scripture. The NT refers to several prophets whose prophecies were not recorded in scripture.
What we should do is believe what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that he who prophesies speaks to men to comfort, edify, and exhort. So asking what can we get from modern prophecy that we can't get from scripture is not a question that comes from a Biblical line of reasoning.
If someone speaks in a tongue, using the genuine gift, and someone else interprets it to the church, the church is edified. That is what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach that this is no longer necessary because we have the Bible (the book that tells us to interpret tongues in church, ahem.)
Tongues and prophecy can deal with very specific issues. Some preachers say they were called to preach. They say the Holy Spirit showed it to them. A few people would say they don't believe in these types of calls because they are extra scriptural revelation (minority view, but philosophically consistent with cessationism). Can a call from the Holy Spirit do something scripture cannot? There is no verse in the Bible that says "John Jones" is called to preach. I suppose John Jones could get a verse about how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Gospel and believe God has revealed that that verse applies to him. But the fact that the verse applies to Him, and that He is called is not something we can get specifically from scripture.
Prophecies and tongues can deal with specific situations. Sometimes they are scripture verses, prophecies in particular, strung together. A genuine prophecy is whatever the Lord wants to say. But if it is verses, God knows what verses specifically apply and can cut to the heart of the situation.
I wrote:
You are the one not demonstrating a desire to know what the Bible clearly teaches.
You were the one who wanted to comment all about spiritual life and eath but did not want to know what the book of Romans said about the issue enough to look up the passage. Again, if you don't want to talk about a subject, that is fine, but to insist that you are right and not be willing to look up the passage that shows you are wrong is bad form. That's not slander. That's the evidence I see.
Also, you either aren't thinking deeply about the arguments, aren't studying deeply, or something isn't connecting. Just look how you have brushed over the issue that tongues had other purposes than for a sign. Yet you accuse me of not caring what the Bible says.
"Now, show me the scripture that specifically says that no signs would be done for Gentiles, and that signs are ONLY for Jews. "
Show me that signs are ONLY FOR the Jews, even if done among Gentiles. Again, my counter evidence, Romans 15, and the fact that Paul did signs among Gentiles after he stopped going to the Jews in a city as Spiritual Mad Man pointed out.
Where did you get the idea that signs are ONLY for the Jews?
If the Bible shows God doing signs for the Jews, this is not proof that that is the only purpose. Isn't it possible for God to have more than one purpose for one thing? This seems to be a common thread in your reasoning. If tongues are for a sign, you think they are ONLY for a sign. But scripture shows other reasons for tongues. Don't put only where the scriptures do not put only. Otherwise you end up with illogical conclusions.
1. What the Jews want is not the issue. If God has a purpose for signs, then He can do what He wants no matter what the Jews want. The passage says the Jews required a sign, not that God required for Jews to have signs.
Paul probably heard 'Give us a sign' from Jews all the time, but Greeks wanted to have philosophical discussions about the Gospel. Besides the passage continues, to them that believe Jews AND Greeks, Christ is the power of God [c.f. 'sign'] and the wisdom of God. So God manifested the power and the wisdom to both Jews and Greeks, not just the power to the Jews and the wisdom to the Greeks.
2. Your argument is not logical. If the Bible says that Jews require a sign and Greeks seek after wisdom, it is illogical to conclude that no Greeks want a sign and that no Jews seek after wisdom. The Bible does not affirm the negative of this statement.
If I say Jews like mozza ball soup, that does not mean no Gentiles like mozza ball soup.
1. I suspect you think that a lot of Christians are sign seekers. Guess what, a lot of people who believe in signs and wonders are GENTILE CHRISTIANS, not Jews. So if you want to slam Charismatics, Pentecostals, etc. for seeking signs, and a lot of them are Gentiles, you need let go of the idea that only Jews desire to see signs.
2. Seeing signs and wonders is not in opposition to walking by faith.
Who wrote that verse that we walk by faith, and not by sight. Paul! Paul did signs and wonders among Jews and Gentiles. See that verse in Romans 15 about Paul doing signs from Jerusalem to Illyricum among the Gentiles. Does that mean Paul walked by sight and not by faith? No. Of course not.
The apostles in Acts 4 prayed that GOD WOULD DO SIGNS AND WONDERS. Does that mean that they walked by sight? No of course not. Jesus did great miracles and gave the Jews the sign of the prophet Jonah. Didn't He walk by faith?
Beliving in, doing, or seeking God to do signs and wonders does not mean one walks by sight. I don't refuse to believe God if He does not do signs and wonders. Neither did the apostles in Acts 4, or Paul when he did those miracles, or Jesus when He was walking on this earth.
Believing what the Bible says about signs, wonders, and spiritual gifts does not make one walk by sight, rather than by faith. In fact, Paul had faith, and that was one of the reasons God could use him to do signs and wonders. The crippled man in Lyaconia had FAITH to be healed, and Paul percieved it. The faith resulted in the miracle. The miracle was not contrary to walking by faith.
First, let me say if I have been a bit terse with you, I apologize. Sometimes I have a tendancy to get straight to the point, and if I attack an idea you have presented, I don't mean it as a personal attack.
I wrote,
If I am wrong about something, and you can show me from the Bible, I will change my point of view.
This is very ironic coming from you. Where have I said that signs are not for Jews? That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not signs are for Gentiles also.
The clear scripture that has been presented on this issue is the quote from Romans 15 in my previous post. Paul did signs and wonders to make Gentiles obedient.
Secondly, you have not dealt with another key point. This is the fact that tongues with interpretation edifies the church. Is edifying the church the same thing as being a sign? Clearly edification and being a sign are separate concepts.
I Corinthians 12 lists tongues among the gifts given to the body of Christ 'to profit withall'. One purpose of tongues is to 'profit withall.' Tongues are given to edify the body of Christ.
If the Bible teaches that tongues are for a sign, does it stand to reason that tongues are ONLY for a sign? No, of course not. That is just bad logic. But that is the stance you are taking.
Do you agree or disagree with the scripture that teaches that tongues are given 'to profit withall'? Do you agree or disagree with Paul's teaching that tongues and interpretation are to be given to edify the church? If you agree, then explain to me how edifying the church is the same thing as being a sign. If you cannot, acknowledge that tongues has a purpose other than being a sign.
Tongues can have more than one purpose you know. If one purpose is to be a sign, that does not mean that tongues can't also be for edification. This is just an issue of logic here.
Also, Paul's point in I Corinthians 14 is that tongues are for a sign to 'them that believe not.' That is the conclusion Paul draws. Why couldn't Paul apply the principle of this verse to Gentiles? Doesn't he apply quotes from the OT to Gentiles in Romans 9? To whom was the verse written
The ironic thing here is that I am the one answering your specific points. But you do not answer my specific points.
For example, I showed you from Romans 15 that Paul did signs to make Gentiles obedient. SMM showed you that Paul did signs among the Gentiles after he had stopped preaching to the Jews in a particular city.
This is the key issue. I have scripture to prove my point. You do not. Here you admit it, though you meant it sarcastically. If you think I am wrong, deal with the specific points I make and tell me where my reasoning is flawed or where scripture does not back up what I say. That's how you learn from conversations like this, by actually engaging with the arguments.
I have changed my stance on a number of issues when I saw I was wrong through scripture. In a discussion like this, you have to deal with the specific points if you want to learn anything.
So after a couple of posts, you can know and judge a person's heart? Do you consider that a supernatural spiritual gift?
I believe in God doing that sort of thing, but one might say you claim to have a supernatural revelation of something. Can you back up what you believe now from scripture?
Btw, was this related to the topic at hand?
Again the irony is that you are doing the things you accuse me of. You don't even look up the verse in Romans which specifically contradict your argument. I show you where tongues operates as something other than a sign and you ignore it. SMM and I show you verses where signs served a purpose for Gentiles, and you ignore them. You don't deal with the specifics of arguments, and when your arguments are shown to be false, you don't respond to these arguments either. You are the one prooftexting, with poor examples of prooftexting. If the Jews require a sign, this says little about who God wants to give signs to, for example.
If you disagree with one of my points, deal with it specifically.
I told you to humble yourself and look up the verses. I didn't slander you.
I had Romans 10 in mind when I wrote that. If you would read and understand the opening part of the passage, you would see why unbelieving Jews are not spiritually alive. In fact, I paraphrased the passage for you earlier.
Look up 'live', 'alive', 'death', and 'dead' in Romans and compare how many times they appear in comparison to 'believe' and 'faith' and you will be surprised. I could write a list of verses about life and death in Romans off the top of my head.
As Paul says in Romans, quoting Hosea,
The JUST shall LIVE by FAITH.
The book is about justification, living (spiritually) and faith. It deals a LOT with the subject of being spiritually alive. In fact, that is a major theme in the book, that we are justified and made spiritually alive by faith. Romans 10 deals with this specific subject.
The Law, after all, said 'choose life.' Adam 'died' when he sinned. Romans deals with issues like these. Romans 5 talks about death coming to all men through Adam. Romans 6 talks about being dead to sin and alive unto God. Romans 7 talks about how sin killed him, taking advantage by the commandment. Romans 8 talks about the body being dead because of sin, and the spirit being alive because of righteousness, and the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead bringing life to our mortal bodies. Romans 10 talks about life coming through either living by faith, or by the works of the law (not possible.) Romans 11 talks about the receiving of the Jews being life from the dead.
So life and death is a big theme in Romans, and the answer to our previous debate on the subject is very clear in Romans 10 if you would bother to look it up.
If you don't want to study a particular thing right now, that's okay. You could just not participate in that aspect of the conversation. But if you come into a forum arguing that an idea is scriptural, and then won't take the time to look up the verses that contradict your viewpoint, and still act like you are right, that is really bad form.
So do you think the elect are live before they believe? I don't know anyone that believes that.
Like I said earlier, I would not say those who accepted John's baptism were 'dead' after they repented. But before, they were in sin. Their sins were not forgiven-- hence the baptism. Show me scripture that says that the spiritually dead cannot understand the message.
And think about the ramifications of what you are saying. If, today, the dead cannot understand the Gospel, wouldn't the conclusion you draw be that those who becomes Christians are spiritually alive BEFORE they receive the message? How does this square with all of Paul's writings on the subject?
That is not what I had in mind. I had in mind some of those baptized by John believing in Jesus while He was ministering before the cross.
Abraham was justified by faith when he believed the promises of God that foreshadowed Christ. The Bible does not tell us if Abraham specifically understood what would happen on the cross. But he was still justified by faith.
David also was forgiven apart from the works of the law, as Paul explains in the same passage about Abraham being justified by faith in Romans 4. The implication seems to be that David was justified by faith as well.
You are the one dancing. Does God only do what unbelieving Jews or Gentiles want? If Jews want a sign, does the fact that the Jews want one mean God will never give a Gentile a sign? Does it mean that God will give the Jews a sign when they want one?
If Jesus had done His mighty works in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Paul did signs and wonders among the Gentiles to make them obedient. Paul did signs among Gentiles in a city after he told the Jews he would go to the Gentiles. And you disregard all this evidence based on what? On the fact that Jews want signs? Can't you see there is no logical connection between Jews requiring a sign and arguing that God does not do signs for Gentiles?
There are different types of signs. The Bible calls casting out demons and various miracles 'signs.' The Jews also wanted to signs that were fulfilled predictions of future events.
Read I Corinthians 14 and try to find what the predictive sign is in regard to tongues. Paul makes a logical connection in verse 22 between the OT prophecy about tongues and tongues being a sign by using the word 'wherefore.'
The OT predicts that when God speaks through other tongues 'and yet for all that, ye shall not hear Me.' This prophecy is fulfilled when we see the uninstructed or unbelievers hear speaking in tongues and say 'ye are mad.'
And therefore, everyone getting together and speaking in tongues (without interpretation) in church is not appropriate. This is one reason. Another reason is that tongues without interpretation do not edify the church, and all things must be done unto edifying.
There is nothing about 70 AD in the passage. There is nothing about God not dealing with the Jews anymore in the context of the passage. This is not the point Paul makes when he interprets the Isaiah passage. He makes his own point.
I wrote,
You are arguing that tongues are ONLY for a sign.
The Bible does not say this, and you have not shown scripture that the only role of tongues is as a sign.
I have referred you to scripture that proves that tongues functions:
1. to profit the whole body.
2. to edify the speaker.
3. to edify the church if accompanied with interpretation.
4. as a sign to them that believe not.
So, number 4 is not the only purpose of tongues. Purposes 1-3 are purposes of tongues as well.
The problem here is that you are using unscriptural reasoning to back up your arguments about the Bible.
The Bible does not teach that God only speaks through the Bible. In fact, it refers to many true prophetic revelations not found in scripture. For example, the book of Iddo the seer, Micaiah's other prophecies to king Ahab, the sealed up thunder clap in revelation that John was not allowed to write down. In the last days, God has spoken to us by His Son. Jesus' every action was a revelation of God. Yet according to John, he supposed the world could not contain the books if all Christ's actions were written down. So they are not all in scripture. The NT refers to several prophets whose prophecies were not recorded in scripture.
What we should do is believe what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that he who prophesies speaks to men to comfort, edify, and exhort. So asking what can we get from modern prophecy that we can't get from scripture is not a question that comes from a Biblical line of reasoning.
If someone speaks in a tongue, using the genuine gift, and someone else interprets it to the church, the church is edified. That is what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach that this is no longer necessary because we have the Bible (the book that tells us to interpret tongues in church, ahem.)
Tongues and prophecy can deal with very specific issues. Some preachers say they were called to preach. They say the Holy Spirit showed it to them. A few people would say they don't believe in these types of calls because they are extra scriptural revelation (minority view, but philosophically consistent with cessationism). Can a call from the Holy Spirit do something scripture cannot? There is no verse in the Bible that says "John Jones" is called to preach. I suppose John Jones could get a verse about how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Gospel and believe God has revealed that that verse applies to him. But the fact that the verse applies to Him, and that He is called is not something we can get specifically from scripture.
Prophecies and tongues can deal with specific situations. Sometimes they are scripture verses, prophecies in particular, strung together. A genuine prophecy is whatever the Lord wants to say. But if it is verses, God knows what verses specifically apply and can cut to the heart of the situation.
I wrote:
You are the one not demonstrating a desire to know what the Bible clearly teaches.
You were the one who wanted to comment all about spiritual life and eath but did not want to know what the book of Romans said about the issue enough to look up the passage. Again, if you don't want to talk about a subject, that is fine, but to insist that you are right and not be willing to look up the passage that shows you are wrong is bad form. That's not slander. That's the evidence I see.
Also, you either aren't thinking deeply about the arguments, aren't studying deeply, or something isn't connecting. Just look how you have brushed over the issue that tongues had other purposes than for a sign. Yet you accuse me of not caring what the Bible says.
That is not what I said you were arguing. I will quote a portion of what you replied to above,
"Now, show me the scripture that specifically says that no signs would be done for Gentiles, and that signs are ONLY for Jews. "
Show me that signs are ONLY FOR the Jews, even if done among Gentiles. Again, my counter evidence, Romans 15, and the fact that Paul did signs among Gentiles after he stopped going to the Jews in a city as Spiritual Mad Man pointed out.
Where did you get the idea that signs are ONLY for the Jews?
If the Bible shows God doing signs for the Jews, this is not proof that that is the only purpose. Isn't it possible for God to have more than one purpose for one thing? This seems to be a common thread in your reasoning. If tongues are for a sign, you think they are ONLY for a sign. But scripture shows other reasons for tongues. Don't put only where the scriptures do not put only. Otherwise you end up with illogical conclusions.
Two things:
1. What the Jews want is not the issue. If God has a purpose for signs, then He can do what He wants no matter what the Jews want. The passage says the Jews required a sign, not that God required for Jews to have signs.
Paul probably heard 'Give us a sign' from Jews all the time, but Greeks wanted to have philosophical discussions about the Gospel. Besides the passage continues, to them that believe Jews AND Greeks, Christ is the power of God [c.f. 'sign'] and the wisdom of God. So God manifested the power and the wisdom to both Jews and Greeks, not just the power to the Jews and the wisdom to the Greeks.
2. Your argument is not logical. If the Bible says that Jews require a sign and Greeks seek after wisdom, it is illogical to conclude that no Greeks want a sign and that no Jews seek after wisdom. The Bible does not affirm the negative of this statement.
If I say Jews like mozza ball soup, that does not mean no Gentiles like mozza ball soup.
Two points.
1. I suspect you think that a lot of Christians are sign seekers. Guess what, a lot of people who believe in signs and wonders are GENTILE CHRISTIANS, not Jews. So if you want to slam Charismatics, Pentecostals, etc. for seeking signs, and a lot of them are Gentiles, you need let go of the idea that only Jews desire to see signs.
2. Seeing signs and wonders is not in opposition to walking by faith.
Who wrote that verse that we walk by faith, and not by sight. Paul! Paul did signs and wonders among Jews and Gentiles. See that verse in Romans 15 about Paul doing signs from Jerusalem to Illyricum among the Gentiles. Does that mean Paul walked by sight and not by faith? No. Of course not.
The apostles in Acts 4 prayed that GOD WOULD DO SIGNS AND WONDERS. Does that mean that they walked by sight? No of course not. Jesus did great miracles and gave the Jews the sign of the prophet Jonah. Didn't He walk by faith?
Beliving in, doing, or seeking God to do signs and wonders does not mean one walks by sight. I don't refuse to believe God if He does not do signs and wonders. Neither did the apostles in Acts 4, or Paul when he did those miracles, or Jesus when He was walking on this earth.
Believing what the Bible says about signs, wonders, and spiritual gifts does not make one walk by sight, rather than by faith. In fact, Paul had faith, and that was one of the reasons God could use him to do signs and wonders. The crippled man in Lyaconia had FAITH to be healed, and Paul percieved it. The faith resulted in the miracle. The miracle was not contrary to walking by faith.
Dear Balion
Why don't you summarize the points yourself. I've read some junk by MacArthur on spiritual gifts. I say junk because he has no real argument for the gifts ceasing, just a bunch of words. His argument that miracles only occured when revelation was being given does not hold water, especially since he uses examples from the OT before the Holy Spirit was poured out in Acts 2, when the Spirit was to be poured on on all flesh.
While MacArthur may be good to read on some other subjects, he is not good to read on this one. His argument has no substance, and he makes some pretty big errors in his book charismatic chaos. For example, he says that the apostles (or Biblical figures?) do not go into trances. But both Peter and Paul went into trances in the book of Acts. MacArthur asserts that there are no reliable accounts of spiritual gifts after the first century or death of the apostles. But this is not true either. MacArthur writes about someone who said he/she could see angels and demons. He wrote he believed they were all demons. This contradicts the teaching of scripture to 'prove all things.' Dismissing things out of hands and rejecting them as false is not 'proving all things.' The Bible says 'despise not prophesyings.'
I read in the first article that MacArthur asserts that the Corinthians were cursing Christ -- in tongues. This is not history. It is an unspoorted assertion. In I Corinthians 12, Paul says nothing about cursing Christ in tongues. If it were in tongues, how would anyone know? If this had occurred, does it not make more sense to assume it had occurred in a false prophecy. That way the Corinthians would have known what incident Paul was referring to. If it were an uninterpreted tongue, no one would have known what he was talking about when he mentioned this.
Paul does not even mention tongues in the context of cursing Christ or saying Christ is Lord. MacArthur just asserts this. That is not 'history.' We don't know that any of the Corinthians were cursing or not. Maybe Paul is just using the most extreme case to make a point that utterances from the Spirit are in line with the Gospel.
I would also like to know if MacArthur argues that 'tongue' singular refers to speaking in tongues.
I would like you to respond to some specific points I made in my earlier message.
1. In I Corinthians 14:28, Paul says to let a man speak in a TONGUE (singular). If 'tongue' (singular) means a false tongue, why would Paul allow it.
2. Since 'tongue' means language, does it not make sense that 'tongue' refers to one language and 'tongues' refers to multiple languages? If we look at the occurrences of these words in the passage, this makes sense. Also it is WHAT THE WORDS ACTUALLY MEAN.
3. What is your basis, from scripture or reason, for defining 'tongue' (singular) as a false tongue. The meaning of the word is that it is one language. Do you have any reasons to back up your view.
You keep talking about knowing about the history. I don't see how history backs you up on this one. This is the line of reasoning a lot of liberals take. They say, you don't know the history. Then they tell you that the Red Sea was a sea of reeds, a marsh, and that this is 'history.' History is real documentation.
The liberals say that you have to know the 'history' to know about homosexuality. They say that in history, homosexual relationships were abusive back then. Therefore, they argue that scripture on homosexuality does not apply.
Or they argue that you need to know the 'history' to know about women in ministry. They argue from 'history' that there were pagan priestesses in Ephesus, and therefore the verses about women not usurping authority over men have no bearing on today. The problem is, the history does not prove their arguments.
You shouldn't disregard the clear teaching of scripture by throwing up a smokescreen of loosely related historical facts. Conservatives can do this, too. Let's look at the text of scripture. If you have any specific historical arguments tha relate to specific texts, please feel free to share it. History is valuable in understanding meanings of words, historical background, etc. But it can also be used as a smokescreen.
Show me the documents that say that, historically, the Corinthians had fake tongues, or that they were cursing Christ in tongues. Show me that from history. Better yet, show it to me from scripture. If some scholar comes up with a theory about scripture that 'could be' true.
It is interesting that MacArthur argues that the term Paul uses to 'speak in tongues' is used to refer to pagan speaking in tongues. This leaves a big question unanswered-- is it used to refer to natural foreign languages?
But of course, if the term is used in reference to pagan practice, that does not mean that the Christian practice was false. Paul says 'forbid not to speak with tongues.' That uses the plural. In I Corinthians 14:27-28, Paul allows the 'tongue', singular, to be spoken, if it is interpreted.
If you think tongues are fake today, then you should be in favor of their use in church! Because, if you think Paul related the Lord's command that fake tongues be spoken and interpretted in church, then you should endorse fake tongues and interpretations. The problem is that this is a nonsensical interpretation. 'Tongue' in I Corinthians 14:27 is talking about a real tongue, just as the word 'tongues' is, and not a demonic counterfeit.
I Corinthians teaches us that IN THE CHURCH we are to edify one another. Speaking in tongues without itnerpretation edifies the speaker. Scripture does not forbid self-edification. In fact, verse 28 SPECIFICALLY ALLOWS tongues without interpretation as long as it is not done in church. So self-edification is allowed. But in church, all things must be done unto edification.
Show me scripture that teaches that building oneself up is forbidden? Do you pray alone? Do you read scripture alone? Do you ever encourage yourself in the Lord like David did?
I think this is the crux of the issue. Because you assume that building ones self up is bad, you try to make 'tongue' out to be something bad to explain verse 2. But if you realize that building onese self up is good, but not appropriate for the church, as the passage explains, then the passage makes much more sense.
Notice Paul's argument. I speak in tongues more than ye all. YET IN THE CHURCH I would rather speak five words with the understanding that I may instruct others than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue.
Paul had just finished explaining that when he spoke in tongues his spirit prayed. So even though Paul spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians, in the context of the church, speaking in a language they understood was better. A foreign language did not build up the church since they did not understand it. That is why a tongue (singular) in verses 27 and 28 had to be interpreted. Without the interpretation, no one was edified except the speaker. In church, everything must be done unto edification of the church. Therefore, tongues must be interpretted. Paul argues this several ways all throughout the chapter. He does not say anything about the Corinthians tongues being false or evil. He clearly has real gifts in view in this chapter.
Read the chapter with this in mind and see how much sense it makes. By the way, a lot of people who are not Charismatic who have a good solid understanding of the Bible realize that the passage teaches this as well.
Why don't you summarize the points yourself. I've read some junk by MacArthur on spiritual gifts. I say junk because he has no real argument for the gifts ceasing, just a bunch of words. His argument that miracles only occured when revelation was being given does not hold water, especially since he uses examples from the OT before the Holy Spirit was poured out in Acts 2, when the Spirit was to be poured on on all flesh.
While MacArthur may be good to read on some other subjects, he is not good to read on this one. His argument has no substance, and he makes some pretty big errors in his book charismatic chaos. For example, he says that the apostles (or Biblical figures?) do not go into trances. But both Peter and Paul went into trances in the book of Acts. MacArthur asserts that there are no reliable accounts of spiritual gifts after the first century or death of the apostles. But this is not true either. MacArthur writes about someone who said he/she could see angels and demons. He wrote he believed they were all demons. This contradicts the teaching of scripture to 'prove all things.' Dismissing things out of hands and rejecting them as false is not 'proving all things.' The Bible says 'despise not prophesyings.'
I read in the first article that MacArthur asserts that the Corinthians were cursing Christ -- in tongues. This is not history. It is an unspoorted assertion. In I Corinthians 12, Paul says nothing about cursing Christ in tongues. If it were in tongues, how would anyone know? If this had occurred, does it not make more sense to assume it had occurred in a false prophecy. That way the Corinthians would have known what incident Paul was referring to. If it were an uninterpreted tongue, no one would have known what he was talking about when he mentioned this.
Paul does not even mention tongues in the context of cursing Christ or saying Christ is Lord. MacArthur just asserts this. That is not 'history.' We don't know that any of the Corinthians were cursing or not. Maybe Paul is just using the most extreme case to make a point that utterances from the Spirit are in line with the Gospel.
I would also like to know if MacArthur argues that 'tongue' singular refers to speaking in tongues.
I would like you to respond to some specific points I made in my earlier message.
1. In I Corinthians 14:28, Paul says to let a man speak in a TONGUE (singular). If 'tongue' (singular) means a false tongue, why would Paul allow it.
2. Since 'tongue' means language, does it not make sense that 'tongue' refers to one language and 'tongues' refers to multiple languages? If we look at the occurrences of these words in the passage, this makes sense. Also it is WHAT THE WORDS ACTUALLY MEAN.
3. What is your basis, from scripture or reason, for defining 'tongue' (singular) as a false tongue. The meaning of the word is that it is one language. Do you have any reasons to back up your view.
You keep talking about knowing about the history. I don't see how history backs you up on this one. This is the line of reasoning a lot of liberals take. They say, you don't know the history. Then they tell you that the Red Sea was a sea of reeds, a marsh, and that this is 'history.' History is real documentation.
The liberals say that you have to know the 'history' to know about homosexuality. They say that in history, homosexual relationships were abusive back then. Therefore, they argue that scripture on homosexuality does not apply.
Or they argue that you need to know the 'history' to know about women in ministry. They argue from 'history' that there were pagan priestesses in Ephesus, and therefore the verses about women not usurping authority over men have no bearing on today. The problem is, the history does not prove their arguments.
You shouldn't disregard the clear teaching of scripture by throwing up a smokescreen of loosely related historical facts. Conservatives can do this, too. Let's look at the text of scripture. If you have any specific historical arguments tha relate to specific texts, please feel free to share it. History is valuable in understanding meanings of words, historical background, etc. But it can also be used as a smokescreen.
Show me the documents that say that, historically, the Corinthians had fake tongues, or that they were cursing Christ in tongues. Show me that from history. Better yet, show it to me from scripture. If some scholar comes up with a theory about scripture that 'could be' true.
It is interesting that MacArthur argues that the term Paul uses to 'speak in tongues' is used to refer to pagan speaking in tongues. This leaves a big question unanswered-- is it used to refer to natural foreign languages?
But of course, if the term is used in reference to pagan practice, that does not mean that the Christian practice was false. Paul says 'forbid not to speak with tongues.' That uses the plural. In I Corinthians 14:27-28, Paul allows the 'tongue', singular, to be spoken, if it is interpreted.
If you think tongues are fake today, then you should be in favor of their use in church! Because, if you think Paul related the Lord's command that fake tongues be spoken and interpretted in church, then you should endorse fake tongues and interpretations. The problem is that this is a nonsensical interpretation. 'Tongue' in I Corinthians 14:27 is talking about a real tongue, just as the word 'tongues' is, and not a demonic counterfeit.
I Corinthians teaches us that IN THE CHURCH we are to edify one another. Speaking in tongues without itnerpretation edifies the speaker. Scripture does not forbid self-edification. In fact, verse 28 SPECIFICALLY ALLOWS tongues without interpretation as long as it is not done in church. So self-edification is allowed. But in church, all things must be done unto edification.
Show me scripture that teaches that building oneself up is forbidden? Do you pray alone? Do you read scripture alone? Do you ever encourage yourself in the Lord like David did?
I think this is the crux of the issue. Because you assume that building ones self up is bad, you try to make 'tongue' out to be something bad to explain verse 2. But if you realize that building onese self up is good, but not appropriate for the church, as the passage explains, then the passage makes much more sense.
Notice Paul's argument. I speak in tongues more than ye all. YET IN THE CHURCH I would rather speak five words with the understanding that I may instruct others than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue.
Paul had just finished explaining that when he spoke in tongues his spirit prayed. So even though Paul spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians, in the context of the church, speaking in a language they understood was better. A foreign language did not build up the church since they did not understand it. That is why a tongue (singular) in verses 27 and 28 had to be interpreted. Without the interpretation, no one was edified except the speaker. In church, everything must be done unto edification of the church. Therefore, tongues must be interpretted. Paul argues this several ways all throughout the chapter. He does not say anything about the Corinthians tongues being false or evil. He clearly has real gifts in view in this chapter.
Read the chapter with this in mind and see how much sense it makes. By the way, a lot of people who are not Charismatic who have a good solid understanding of the Bible realize that the passage teaches this as well.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Quite frankly I don't give a rip as regards to what John MacArthur says or doesn't say about tongues...
I don't personally know John MacArthur...
I have no means to fellowship with him...
And, therefore he has no place of fellowship in my life...
You however share this Forum with me...
I am interested in what you have to say concerning the issues...
Unfortunately, if all you give me is to read John MacArthurs stuff then I have no choice but to assume that you are applying all of John MacArthirs views to all Pentecostal and Charismatic posters on this forum...
Of which I am one.
So, I ask you straight up, do you believe that all Speaking in Tongues in today's church is satanically inspired? That it is the utterance of demons?
I will further ask you this...
In Which post have I denied that Jesus was born of a Virgin named Mary...
In which post have I denied the diety of Jesus Christ...
In which post have I denied the Physical Bodily Ressurection of Jesus Christ?
In which post have I denied the Lordship, the Undisputed ruling authority in my life, of My Lord Jesus Christ?
In which post have I denied the absolute and total efficacy of the Blood of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God?
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
SMM
YES I believe todays version of Speaking in Tongues, the Jibberish-type is coming from Satan and not of God.
The reason they are doing this is because Satan is using and is going to use many of these people in the future to decieve.
Satan knows that if you try to get people to receive false doctrine, they will be more open to receive it if miraculous things take place.
In other words, if someone preaches a message and then starts hopping around and "being filled with the Holy Ghost" begins "speaking in tongues" and receiving "messages from God" the people will fall for it, and thus think the message the preacher is preaching is ALSO from God.
1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils
Mt:24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Rv:13:14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rv:16:14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
This is an article I wrote about New Age "Channeling" ...the New Age Movement is ancient Spiritualism in a new package...
"He shall honour the God of forces: a god whom his fathers knew not"... he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws Dan:7:25;11:38
In the mid Nineteenth Century there was an American outbreak of Spiritualism, and now a 'New Wave' of Spiritualism is sweeping across America in the form of New Age 'Channeling'. Channeling is the communication of information to or through a human being from a source that is said to exist on some other level or dimension of reality than the physical.
There is an important difference between that Spiritualism that was practiced during the mid Nineteenth Century with their seances and the New Age Channeling Movement today. During the old style seances the Medium supposedly conjured up the Spirit of a deceased Relative, specifically to communicate a message of a personal nature, while modern Channeling involves communicating with a 'Spirit' who is an unrelated Being who communicates messages of guidance, knowledge or direction for the New Ager.
These channeled Beings will give discourses on the nature of God, Humanity, and the Universe, during which time they will always seem to confirm the New Age views on these subjects. They present the "All is One" concept in the most alluring manner, and seem to validate that the New Age belief system was right all along. Satan's new method is to try to make Spiritualism seem "Christian", and of course, there is no true Biblical support for the New Age views; and so the Devil uses 'The Spirits' to confirm these views instead. It is the only 'proof' that they have!
Beside the fact that the Spirits seem to confirm their pantheistic worldview, New Agers also love to talk to these 'Spirit Beings' because it gives them a feeling of having a God to talk to, which they otherwise would not have. Their impersonal view of God as a 'Force of Nature' leaves them without a personal God to listen to them when they need an all-knowing Being to know what's inside their hearts. They may be able to talk about God as a force but they cannot talk to God as a personal Being. The New Age practice of communicating with their own Inner Self or Higher Self helps to take the edge off their loneliness but channeling the Spirit World offers them an exciting and exotic option -allowing them to talk to actual "Beings" who will talk back to them and even answer their questions about life.
Former Top New Age Leader Randall Baer tells the story of his experiences with some of these channeled Spirits in his book Inside the New Age Nightmare. (Please keep in mind that any time I refer to these Spirit Beings that they are merely demons posing as Spiritual Guides). Randall Baer began to get more and more drawn into the lies of these Spirit Entities as time went by. Let's read about his story:
"The spirit would began to speak to us (he and his girlfriend, Vicki) explicitly and directly. All of a sudden Vicki would go into a trance. Then a Spirit would come into her body and animatedly speak. I couldn't believe what was happening.
These electrically compelled spirits would come in and identify themselves, and then proceed to convey some august universal message of great import. I found that I even could converse with these 'high and wide' spirit-entities. They would answer my questions with what sounded like great wisdom and supernatural prescience. The variety of spirits coming and going was astounding- I talked with 'Eagle', 'White Cloud', 'Serapis Bey', 'Ascended Master Kut-humi', 'Mary', 'Golden-helmeted Ones', 'Green Ray Master', and a host of others. The power emanating from these spirits was overwhelming and entrancingly intoxicating.
For hours at a time, spirit after spirit would come into Vicki's body and speak through her. She was totally oblivious to what was being said and done. It was like she was tucked away somewhere while the spirits temporarily would 'use her vehicle', as they said, to speak to me.
I was flabbergasted by what they told me. Distilling the volumes of information, essentially this array of exalted 'Universal Masters' and 'Servants of the Light' told me this: that Vicki and I, and a few select others like us around the world, were receiving a 'grand dispensation' to be the vanguard 'Bearers of the New Age Light' to lead the world into the fast-approaching 'Golden Age of Oneness'." Randall Baer, Inside the New Age Nightmare, pg. 29
So what is the real source of these intrusions from the Spirit World? Why is there such an explosion of these experiences at this time in mankind's history? What Doctrines are these Spirit Entities teaching? At this time, we will take a look at some of the most popular New Age Channelers and their Spirit Entities who speak through them; and after that, we will go into more detail about the messages that they are bringing to mankind.
RAMTHA- CHANNELED BY J.Z.KNIGHT
In a small town called Yelm, Washington there was a housewife by the name of J.Z. Knight, who is a pretty honey-blonde 40 year old woman... someone you wouldn't expect to be channeling a supposedly 35,000 year old Spirit named Ramtha.
Ramtha, who calls himself "The Enlightened One" is said to be one of those Ascended Masters who have evolved into a God. Speaking through J.Z. Knight, Ramtha said:
"I am a sovereign entity who lived a long time ago upon Earth. In that life I did not die: I ascended, for I learned to harness the power of my mind and to take my body with me into an unseen dimension of life. I am now a part of an unseen brotherhood who love mankind greatly. We are your brothers who hear your prayers and your meditations and observe your movements to and fro.
All of you are very important and precious to us, because the life that flows through you and the thought that is coming to every one of you however you entertain it, is the intelligence and the life-force that you have termed God. It is the essence that connects all of us, not only to those upon your plane, but to those in untold universes which you have not yet the eyes to see.
Throughout history, we have tried many different avenues to remind you of your greatness, your power, and the foreverness of your life. We have been king, conquerer, crucified Christ, teacher, friend, philosopher- anything that would permit knowledge to occur. At times we have intervened in your affairs to keep you from annihilating yourselves, so that life here would continue to provide a playground for your experiences and your evolution into joy." -Ramtha, Channeled by J.Z. Knight, as reported in New Age Catalog, pg. 5
This Spirit Being had come to J.Z. Knight, as a result of her fooling around with occult things. She and her husband had been dabbling with Pyramid Power. According to New Agers, pyramids and triangles are believed to possess certain special powers. Some wear miniature pyramid around their necks to bring positive energy forces into their bodies. Others make paper or cardboard pyramids and place them near foodstuffs, believing them to have preservative powers.
It was while J..Z. Knight and her husband were making paper pyramids to put in their kitchen cupboards to preserve food that the demon-spirit Ramtha appeared in their kitchen as a "huge being of light". Please understand that in nearly every case- these "Spirit Beings" come because someone is dabbling in Occultism. In commenting upon the demon-possessed man that Jesus had healed, Christian Writer, Ellen White said:
"He had placed himself on the enemy's ground, and Satan had taken possession of all his faculties. The tempter had allured him with many charming presentations; but when once the wretched man was in his power, the fiend became relentless in his cruelty, and terrible in his visitations. So it will be with all who yield to evil; the fascinating pleasure of their early career ends in the darkness of despair or the madness of a ruined soul." -Desire of Ages, pg. 253.
This is why All Christians who are in any way getting involved in Occult techniques such as Visualization, Eastern Meditation, Relaxation techniques, mood-altering music, Whole Brain Learning, or any of the other New Age practices, need to wake up and remove their feet from off of Satan's territory, because by doing those things, you are virtually inviting demon control!
Now, getting back to J.Z. Knight and her initial encounter with Ramtha. The Spirit Entity Ramtha promised this housewife that he would be her guide on her journey to 'Becoming a God.' He also promised to use her as a channel of blessing to the world. And now, he even channels his 'ancient wisdom' through her in seminars, and has even done this on National Television. Ramtha the Spirit Entity is also known as The Ram. The Ram is also known as the goat, which has long been a symbol of Satan. "The Ram" announced, through J.Z. Knight that "In the seed of Lucifer lies God and demons".
Before J.Z. Knight had been taken over by "Ramtha" -according to one of her High School former Classmates, Sandy Fallis, Knight was once at a Christian Prayer Meeting and she suddenly began speaking in a strange male voice, who identified itself as a demon named Demias, said Fallis in a segment of ABC's television show 20/20. She was holding her neck, according to Sandy Fallis, and saying "I can't breathe!" and at that point the male voice broke out again and said, "You want this body and you can't have it!" J.Z. Knight denies this incident ever occurred, however.
When J.Z. Knight was once on television being interviewed, she entered a trance, in order for the entity Ramtha to be channeled through her. She became very still and began to breathe deeply (which is an Eastern Meditation Occult technique). She then contorted, tossed her head around as if being animated like a puppet, and then strange growling sounds were heard, as she began to be transformed into Ramtha. She stood erect, and acted like a marionette with jerking motions. Everybody in the audience sat spellbound, as if hanging upon every word that Ramtha uttered. They seemed to see it as a "Message from God".
J.Z. Knight now travels from city to city, typically introducing Ramtha by entering, into an altered state of consciousness, beginning to shake, and then suddenly going limp. Ramtha then manifests himself through her and starts spouting off his typical New Age "wisdom", that the audience has paid large amounts of money to hear. The message usually revolves around the idea that we are all Gods, and that even Lucifer is "Divine". Knight now lives in Yelm, Washington, and scores of followers flock there to this farming community of about 1,400 people 55 miles south of Seattle to be close to Ramtha the Spirit Guide. She even has a following among Hollywood's elite, including Linda Evans, from the T.V. Show Dynasty. One published report claims that Evans has already bought a $1.5 million home about a thirty minute drive from J.Z. Knight's residence.
JANE ROBERTS AND SETH
Psychologist Jane Roberts, back in the 1960's, first met a Spirit who identified himself as Seth, when she started experimenting with an Ouija Board. An Ouija Board is a mechanism that is used to contact the Spirit World and upon it there are letters with which the Spirits can spell out messages. The Board also has the words Yes and No upon it. If you will recall, J.Z. Knight first had her meeting with the Spirit "Ramtha" after fooling around with Occult Pyramids. Being in any way connected with occultic practices leaves one vulnerable to demonic forces, and can become extremely dangerous!
Miss Roberts was thereafter able to discard her Ouija Board and speak on her own for the Spirit 'Seth', who from then on seemed to possess her. Jane Roberts then went on to publish thousands of pages known as The Seth Materials, which became quite famous. She also went on to conduct over 500 sessions with Seth. Her material was published in a series and became available in Book Stores all over America, and were an overnight sensation among New Agers and others who were interested in the Occult.
Soon, those who had read the Seth Materials began to meet at local homes all around the United States and even overseas to study these materials in groups. Seth told his followers that doing Eastern Meditation was very important for your Spiritual growth and would aid them in contacting the Spirits.
Each year in Austin, Texas, Seth disciples from around the world gather to study the Seth materials in depth, and to fellowship together. At one of these particular yearly meetings, the Seth followers were taught how to speak in tongues and to combine this with holy dancing. This of course, is what is done in Pentecostal Holiness Churches, which is in fact- Spiritualism.
During these tongue-speaking sessions, the Seth disciples were instructed on how to perform "Sumari", which supposedly is a language that is not really "language" in the normal sense of the word. Its importance is upon the sounds rather than upon its written patterns, and these sounds supposedly have a certain "power" when spoken.
Jane Roberts, channeler of the Seth Entity, described her first experience in speaking in Tongues:
"I heard a babble of voices in strange languages. I didn't know what I was supposed to do with them, but I knew that something was expected of me. Suddenly I began to chant words in a loud, ringing voice: 'Sumari, Ispania, Wena nefarie, Dena dena nefarie, Lona, Lana, Lana Sumare.' Then in a whisper someone else said in my voice, in other words coming from my mouth, but it was someone from inside of me, 'I am Sumari, you are Sumari, throughout the ages you have been Sumari. I am acquainting you with your heritage.' At the same time a delicious warmth filled my body. It came like a glow, from inside, radiating outward"
Of course, this was a demon who was speaking through Jane Roberts! The Devil used Roberts in a big way, because this widespread interest in Seth gave rise to the current channeling movement. With Seth was opened a whole new chapter in the history of American Spiritualism.
It used to be that New Agers had to go see an 'all-wise Guru' for instruction in Spiritual matters; but now you no longer needed a spiritually qualified instructor. You could listen to a channeled entity, who of course had "all the answers" about life. The Channeler need not even be qualified as a teacher, because the entity who was speaking through him or her was believed to be the "wise teacher" who was actually doing the teaching.
Then there's Jach Pursel, who channels an entity called Lazaris. Jach and his wife Peny were very involved in doing Eastern Meditation, but Jach had a reoccuring problem with falling off to sleep after a certain amount of time during these Meditation sessions. But not one certain time! One time when Jach had been doing his Eastern Meditation and had seemed to doze off, he suddenly began speaking in a strange voice! His wife Peny started asking questions and this "voice" who was speaking through Jach would answer. She became convinced that another Being had taken over her husband's body and was talking through him. This same thing happened again and again, but Jach seemed to be unable to remember any of it.
Jach chose to name the entity Lazaris, and eventually- channeling Lazaris became a common occurrence for him. He started giving public lectures, weekend workshops, and private consultations, with Lazaris doing all of the talking. Lazaris, the Spirit Entity claims that he is there to "love you when you're ready to be loved" and that "he will guide you on your spiritual journey home to God! Goddess! The All, or whatever you choose to call it".
Lazaris also talks about growing towards your magnificent Higher Divine Self and even leads the listener step by step in preparation to meet his or her "Higher Self" (the Divine part of you that resides within, supposedly). He then further instructs on how to maintain a continuing relationship with "It". Of course, this demonic entity is in reality leading people to converse with other demonic presences, who mask themselves as the "Higher Self" within.
I have described to you just a few of the more popular channeled "Spirits". There are a great variety of others, however...
"He shall honour the God of forces: a god whom his fathers knew not"... he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws Dan:7:25;11:38
In the mid Nineteenth Century there was an American outbreak of Spiritualism, and now a 'New Wave' of Spiritualism is sweeping across America in the form of New Age 'Channeling'. Channeling is the communication of information to or through a human being from a source that is said to exist on some other level or dimension of reality than the physical.
There is an important difference between that Spiritualism that was practiced during the mid Nineteenth Century with their seances and the New Age Channeling Movement today. During the old style seances the Medium supposedly conjured up the Spirit of a deceased Relative, specifically to communicate a message of a personal nature, while modern Channeling involves communicating with a 'Spirit' who is an unrelated Being who communicates messages of guidance, knowledge or direction for the New Ager.
These channeled Beings will give discourses on the nature of God, Humanity, and the Universe, during which time they will always seem to confirm the New Age views on these subjects. They present the "All is One" concept in the most alluring manner, and seem to validate that the New Age belief system was right all along. Satan's new method is to try to make Spiritualism seem "Christian", and of course, there is no true Biblical support for the New Age views; and so the Devil uses 'The Spirits' to confirm these views instead. It is the only 'proof' that they have!
Beside the fact that the Spirits seem to confirm their pantheistic worldview, New Agers also love to talk to these 'Spirit Beings' because it gives them a feeling of having a God to talk to, which they otherwise would not have. Their impersonal view of God as a 'Force of Nature' leaves them without a personal God to listen to them when they need an all-knowing Being to know what's inside their hearts. They may be able to talk about God as a force but they cannot talk to God as a personal Being. The New Age practice of communicating with their own Inner Self or Higher Self helps to take the edge off their loneliness but channeling the Spirit World offers them an exciting and exotic option -allowing them to talk to actual "Beings" who will talk back to them and even answer their questions about life.
Former Top New Age Leader Randall Baer tells the story of his experiences with some of these channeled Spirits in his book Inside the New Age Nightmare. (Please keep in mind that any time I refer to these Spirit Beings that they are merely demons posing as Spiritual Guides). Randall Baer began to get more and more drawn into the lies of these Spirit Entities as time went by. Let's read about his story:
"The spirit would began to speak to us (he and his girlfriend, Vicki) explicitly and directly. All of a sudden Vicki would go into a trance. Then a Spirit would come into her body and animatedly speak. I couldn't believe what was happening.
These electrically compelled spirits would come in and identify themselves, and then proceed to convey some august universal message of great import. I found that I even could converse with these 'high and wide' spirit-entities. They would answer my questions with what sounded like great wisdom and supernatural prescience. The variety of spirits coming and going was astounding- I talked with 'Eagle', 'White Cloud', 'Serapis Bey', 'Ascended Master Kut-humi', 'Mary', 'Golden-helmeted Ones', 'Green Ray Master', and a host of others. The power emanating from these spirits was overwhelming and entrancingly intoxicating.
For hours at a time, spirit after spirit would come into Vicki's body and speak through her. She was totally oblivious to what was being said and done. It was like she was tucked away somewhere while the spirits temporarily would 'use her vehicle', as they said, to speak to me.
I was flabbergasted by what they told me. Distilling the volumes of information, essentially this array of exalted 'Universal Masters' and 'Servants of the Light' told me this: that Vicki and I, and a few select others like us around the world, were receiving a 'grand dispensation' to be the vanguard 'Bearers of the New Age Light' to lead the world into the fast-approaching 'Golden Age of Oneness'." Randall Baer, Inside the New Age Nightmare, pg. 29
So what is the real source of these intrusions from the Spirit World? Why is there such an explosion of these experiences at this time in mankind's history? What Doctrines are these Spirit Entities teaching? At this time, we will take a look at some of the most popular New Age Channelers and their Spirit Entities who speak through them; and after that, we will go into more detail about the messages that they are bringing to mankind.
RAMTHA- CHANNELED BY J.Z.KNIGHT
In a small town called Yelm, Washington there was a housewife by the name of J.Z. Knight, who is a pretty honey-blonde 40 year old woman... someone you wouldn't expect to be channeling a supposedly 35,000 year old Spirit named Ramtha.
Ramtha, who calls himself "The Enlightened One" is said to be one of those Ascended Masters who have evolved into a God. Speaking through J.Z. Knight, Ramtha said:
"I am a sovereign entity who lived a long time ago upon Earth. In that life I did not die: I ascended, for I learned to harness the power of my mind and to take my body with me into an unseen dimension of life. I am now a part of an unseen brotherhood who love mankind greatly. We are your brothers who hear your prayers and your meditations and observe your movements to and fro.
All of you are very important and precious to us, because the life that flows through you and the thought that is coming to every one of you however you entertain it, is the intelligence and the life-force that you have termed God. It is the essence that connects all of us, not only to those upon your plane, but to those in untold universes which you have not yet the eyes to see.
Throughout history, we have tried many different avenues to remind you of your greatness, your power, and the foreverness of your life. We have been king, conquerer, crucified Christ, teacher, friend, philosopher- anything that would permit knowledge to occur. At times we have intervened in your affairs to keep you from annihilating yourselves, so that life here would continue to provide a playground for your experiences and your evolution into joy." -Ramtha, Channeled by J.Z. Knight, as reported in New Age Catalog, pg. 5
This Spirit Being had come to J.Z. Knight, as a result of her fooling around with occult things. She and her husband had been dabbling with Pyramid Power. According to New Agers, pyramids and triangles are believed to possess certain special powers. Some wear miniature pyramid around their necks to bring positive energy forces into their bodies. Others make paper or cardboard pyramids and place them near foodstuffs, believing them to have preservative powers.
It was while J..Z. Knight and her husband were making paper pyramids to put in their kitchen cupboards to preserve food that the demon-spirit Ramtha appeared in their kitchen as a "huge being of light". Please understand that in nearly every case- these "Spirit Beings" come because someone is dabbling in Occultism. In commenting upon the demon-possessed man that Jesus had healed, Christian Writer, Ellen White said:
"He had placed himself on the enemy's ground, and Satan had taken possession of all his faculties. The tempter had allured him with many charming presentations; but when once the wretched man was in his power, the fiend became relentless in his cruelty, and terrible in his visitations. So it will be with all who yield to evil; the fascinating pleasure of their early career ends in the darkness of despair or the madness of a ruined soul." -Desire of Ages, pg. 253.
This is why All Christians who are in any way getting involved in Occult techniques such as Visualization, Eastern Meditation, Relaxation techniques, mood-altering music, Whole Brain Learning, or any of the other New Age practices, need to wake up and remove their feet from off of Satan's territory, because by doing those things, you are virtually inviting demon control!
Now, getting back to J.Z. Knight and her initial encounter with Ramtha. The Spirit Entity Ramtha promised this housewife that he would be her guide on her journey to 'Becoming a God.' He also promised to use her as a channel of blessing to the world. And now, he even channels his 'ancient wisdom' through her in seminars, and has even done this on National Television. Ramtha the Spirit Entity is also known as The Ram. The Ram is also known as the goat, which has long been a symbol of Satan. "The Ram" announced, through J.Z. Knight that "In the seed of Lucifer lies God and demons".
Before J.Z. Knight had been taken over by "Ramtha" -according to one of her High School former Classmates, Sandy Fallis, Knight was once at a Christian Prayer Meeting and she suddenly began speaking in a strange male voice, who identified itself as a demon named Demias, said Fallis in a segment of ABC's television show 20/20. She was holding her neck, according to Sandy Fallis, and saying "I can't breathe!" and at that point the male voice broke out again and said, "You want this body and you can't have it!" J.Z. Knight denies this incident ever occurred, however.
When J.Z. Knight was once on television being interviewed, she entered a trance, in order for the entity Ramtha to be channeled through her. She became very still and began to breathe deeply (which is an Eastern Meditation Occult technique). She then contorted, tossed her head around as if being animated like a puppet, and then strange growling sounds were heard, as she began to be transformed into Ramtha. She stood erect, and acted like a marionette with jerking motions. Everybody in the audience sat spellbound, as if hanging upon every word that Ramtha uttered. They seemed to see it as a "Message from God".
J.Z. Knight now travels from city to city, typically introducing Ramtha by entering, into an altered state of consciousness, beginning to shake, and then suddenly going limp. Ramtha then manifests himself through her and starts spouting off his typical New Age "wisdom", that the audience has paid large amounts of money to hear. The message usually revolves around the idea that we are all Gods, and that even Lucifer is "Divine". Knight now lives in Yelm, Washington, and scores of followers flock there to this farming community of about 1,400 people 55 miles south of Seattle to be close to Ramtha the Spirit Guide. She even has a following among Hollywood's elite, including Linda Evans, from the T.V. Show Dynasty. One published report claims that Evans has already bought a $1.5 million home about a thirty minute drive from J.Z. Knight's residence.
JANE ROBERTS AND SETH
Psychologist Jane Roberts, back in the 1960's, first met a Spirit who identified himself as Seth, when she started experimenting with an Ouija Board. An Ouija Board is a mechanism that is used to contact the Spirit World and upon it there are letters with which the Spirits can spell out messages. The Board also has the words Yes and No upon it. If you will recall, J.Z. Knight first had her meeting with the Spirit "Ramtha" after fooling around with Occult Pyramids. Being in any way connected with occultic practices leaves one vulnerable to demonic forces, and can become extremely dangerous!
Miss Roberts was thereafter able to discard her Ouija Board and speak on her own for the Spirit 'Seth', who from then on seemed to possess her. Jane Roberts then went on to publish thousands of pages known as The Seth Materials, which became quite famous. She also went on to conduct over 500 sessions with Seth. Her material was published in a series and became available in Book Stores all over America, and were an overnight sensation among New Agers and others who were interested in the Occult.
Soon, those who had read the Seth Materials began to meet at local homes all around the United States and even overseas to study these materials in groups. Seth told his followers that doing Eastern Meditation was very important for your Spiritual growth and would aid them in contacting the Spirits.
Each year in Austin, Texas, Seth disciples from around the world gather to study the Seth materials in depth, and to fellowship together. At one of these particular yearly meetings, the Seth followers were taught how to speak in tongues and to combine this with holy dancing. This of course, is what is done in Pentecostal Holiness Churches, which is in fact- Spiritualism.
During these tongue-speaking sessions, the Seth disciples were instructed on how to perform "Sumari", which supposedly is a language that is not really "language" in the normal sense of the word. Its importance is upon the sounds rather than upon its written patterns, and these sounds supposedly have a certain "power" when spoken.
Jane Roberts, channeler of the Seth Entity, described her first experience in speaking in Tongues:
"I heard a babble of voices in strange languages. I didn't know what I was supposed to do with them, but I knew that something was expected of me. Suddenly I began to chant words in a loud, ringing voice: 'Sumari, Ispania, Wena nefarie, Dena dena nefarie, Lona, Lana, Lana Sumare.' Then in a whisper someone else said in my voice, in other words coming from my mouth, but it was someone from inside of me, 'I am Sumari, you are Sumari, throughout the ages you have been Sumari. I am acquainting you with your heritage.' At the same time a delicious warmth filled my body. It came like a glow, from inside, radiating outward"
Of course, this was a demon who was speaking through Jane Roberts! The Devil used Roberts in a big way, because this widespread interest in Seth gave rise to the current channeling movement. With Seth was opened a whole new chapter in the history of American Spiritualism.
It used to be that New Agers had to go see an 'all-wise Guru' for instruction in Spiritual matters; but now you no longer needed a spiritually qualified instructor. You could listen to a channeled entity, who of course had "all the answers" about life. The Channeler need not even be qualified as a teacher, because the entity who was speaking through him or her was believed to be the "wise teacher" who was actually doing the teaching.
Then there's Jach Pursel, who channels an entity called Lazaris. Jach and his wife Peny were very involved in doing Eastern Meditation, but Jach had a reoccuring problem with falling off to sleep after a certain amount of time during these Meditation sessions. But not one certain time! One time when Jach had been doing his Eastern Meditation and had seemed to doze off, he suddenly began speaking in a strange voice! His wife Peny started asking questions and this "voice" who was speaking through Jach would answer. She became convinced that another Being had taken over her husband's body and was talking through him. This same thing happened again and again, but Jach seemed to be unable to remember any of it.
Jach chose to name the entity Lazaris, and eventually- channeling Lazaris became a common occurrence for him. He started giving public lectures, weekend workshops, and private consultations, with Lazaris doing all of the talking. Lazaris, the Spirit Entity claims that he is there to "love you when you're ready to be loved" and that "he will guide you on your spiritual journey home to God! Goddess! The All, or whatever you choose to call it".
Lazaris also talks about growing towards your magnificent Higher Divine Self and even leads the listener step by step in preparation to meet his or her "Higher Self" (the Divine part of you that resides within, supposedly). He then further instructs on how to maintain a continuing relationship with "It". Of course, this demonic entity is in reality leading people to converse with other demonic presences, who mask themselves as the "Higher Self" within.
I have described to you just a few of the more popular channeled "Spirits". There are a great variety of others, however...
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
YES I believe todays version of Speaking in Tongues, the Jibberish-type is coming from Satan and not of God.
</font>[/QUOTE]ALL tongues or just the gibberish?
SMM
Quite frankly I don't give a rip as regards to what John MacArthur says or doesn't say about tongues...
I don't personally know John MacArthur...
I have no means to fellowship with him...
And, therefore he has no place of fellowship in my life...
You however share this Forum with me...
I am interested in what you have to say concerning the issues...
Unfortunately, if all you give me is to read John MacArthurs stuff then I have no choice but to assume that you are applying all of John MacArthirs views to all Pentecostal and Charismatic posters on this forum...
Of which I am one.
So, I ask you straight up, do you believe that all Speaking in Tongues in today's church is satanically inspired? That it is the utterance of demons?
I will further ask you this...
In Which post have I denied that Jesus was born of a Virgin named Mary...
In which post have I denied the diety of Jesus Christ...
In which post have I denied the Physical Bodily Ressurection of Jesus Christ?
In which post have I denied the Lordship, the Undisputed ruling authority in my life, of My Lord Jesus Christ?
In which post have I denied the absolute and total efficacy of the Blood of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God?
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
SMM </font>[/QUOTE]Well, thanks indeed for asking me straight up. I believe that the jibberish that people speak, is not holy spirit inspired. I believe Acts spells out exactly what the gift of Tongues is. It is not a 2 or 3 syllable sentence. Have you had your tongue interpretated yet? Have you had it interpretated by separate interpretators? Were they in concert on the meaning?
As for your statement of faith, I never questioned anyone's faith. Nor am I one of the silly egotistical persons who acts like a child over the issue. I would not say that because I differ with someone on the understanding of spiritual gifts, that they are not of Christ. Nor would any mature Christian take such stance.
tamborine lady
Active Member
Balion, John McArthur is not an expert on the gifts of the Spirit. His roots are in the Church of Christ. I know that now he is some other denomination, but he still has the root of not believing in the power of the Holy Spirit.
He simply does not have all the facts about tongues, or any other gift. It is sad that you take someones word for what the scripture says instead of reading the bible and letting the Holy Spirit interpret it for you.
Try that and let me know how it works.
Peace,
Tam
Link as I stated earlier there is no reason to continue with you, because all we are doing is a circular conversation.
The Bible says that Jews require a sign. Nowhere in the Bible does it says that Gentiles require a sign. You have yet to show that Scripture.
You did argue that I said signs were not done by Gentiles or in their presence, which is simply not the case. I readily admit that signs were done by Gentiles and in their midst, but it was for the purpose of the Jews. Now did the Gentiles benefit from it. I'm sure they did, but the purpose was for the Jews.
The Jews require a sign. No one else. So why do something for someone that they don't even care if they have it or not. This is plain teaching of Scripture that you are choosing not to see.
Therefore there is no reason for me to continue in this conversation.
I looked at the Romans 15 passage and you are drawing a conclusion that I don't think is possible to draw. You are seeing a list of items that Christ did in Paul and then you are tying two things in the list together, because it "proves" your point. However, there is nothing in that passage that ties those to things together. It doesn't say that those signs and wonders were done to produce obedience in the Gentiles.
Signs and wonders are just one in a list of things that Christ accomplished in Paul. The connection is that Christ did all these things through Paul.
So that line of reasoning holds no water at all.
The Jews were spiritually alive. There are a number of ways to show this, but let me just briefly say this...Jesus said He came to seek and save that which was lost. He also said that He came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Well if something is lost that means it has to have previously been in the possession of the owner. So they weren't dead they were lost. He calls the house of Israel lost sheep. They were His sheep and they used to be in the fold, but they have wandered off and He is here to draw them back in.
That should be sufficient to show that the Jews were spiritually alive.
I asked you how the church was edified by tongues today and you gave some very general responses. But in the responses that you gave you are using tongues in a way that Scripture does not use them.
Tongues were known languages that were spoken by people that were not learned in that language by the power of the Holy Spirit.
So the idea of tongues even being needed in America is kind of silly. People that are going to churches speak the same languages.
Let's just use your example of someone being called to pastor a church. Tongues are not needed to reveal to that person whether or not they are called to preach. The Bible tells us that He causes us to will and to work for His purpose. The Bible says that if a man desires the office he desires a good thing. So we can see from just those two Scriptures that God causes us to will and that if we feel/sense whatever you want to say that God is leading us in that direction that it is a good thing.
Now how do we know if it is God or if it is self, or if it is demonic? Well there's a list of qualifications that are given. If you qualify on the list it's from God if your motives are pure, if you don't qualify then there's a number of things that could be at hand.
The simple matter is that everything that we need to walk in the Spirit and to live by faith is given in the Bible. We don't even need tongues for "special" revelation.
The bottom line is one of us has the Truth and one of us does not. And we will both have to answer for what we believed and why.
It seems pretty cut and dry that signs were for the Jews only. Signs were done among Gentiles and even by Gentiles, but it was to provoke Israel to jealousy, becuase they knew signs were for them and here this group of "dogs" was getting things that were intended for them and were doing things that only they were supposed to do.
Obviously not even that worked as Jews continued to reject the message of the kingdom.
You have to remember what the history of Israel was all about. They were promised phyiscal promises. And therefore they needed physical assurances that what was being spoken was the truth.
So the signs were given of people being healed, showing how the nation of Israel would be healed if they would repent. Demons were driven out showing the sign of deliverance that would be given to the nation of Israel if they would repent. Thousands of people were healed supernaturally showing that if the nation would repent they would be taken care of supernaturally. Dead people were raised showing that the nation of Israel would be brought to life if they would repent. Tongues were used so that Jews of other nations that didn't speak Greek or Hebrew could here the gospel message and believe and repent.
Let me leave you with three items that I would encourage you to read through that goes much more indepth than what I am able to on a message board.
http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/phtm4/SWM1.htm
http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/phtm4/SWM2.htm
http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/phtm4/SWM3.htm
The Bible says that Jews require a sign. Nowhere in the Bible does it says that Gentiles require a sign. You have yet to show that Scripture.
You did argue that I said signs were not done by Gentiles or in their presence, which is simply not the case. I readily admit that signs were done by Gentiles and in their midst, but it was for the purpose of the Jews. Now did the Gentiles benefit from it. I'm sure they did, but the purpose was for the Jews.
The Jews require a sign. No one else. So why do something for someone that they don't even care if they have it or not. This is plain teaching of Scripture that you are choosing not to see.
Therefore there is no reason for me to continue in this conversation.
I looked at the Romans 15 passage and you are drawing a conclusion that I don't think is possible to draw. You are seeing a list of items that Christ did in Paul and then you are tying two things in the list together, because it "proves" your point. However, there is nothing in that passage that ties those to things together. It doesn't say that those signs and wonders were done to produce obedience in the Gentiles.
Signs and wonders are just one in a list of things that Christ accomplished in Paul. The connection is that Christ did all these things through Paul.
So that line of reasoning holds no water at all.
The Jews were spiritually alive. There are a number of ways to show this, but let me just briefly say this...Jesus said He came to seek and save that which was lost. He also said that He came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Well if something is lost that means it has to have previously been in the possession of the owner. So they weren't dead they were lost. He calls the house of Israel lost sheep. They were His sheep and they used to be in the fold, but they have wandered off and He is here to draw them back in.
That should be sufficient to show that the Jews were spiritually alive.
I asked you how the church was edified by tongues today and you gave some very general responses. But in the responses that you gave you are using tongues in a way that Scripture does not use them.
Tongues were known languages that were spoken by people that were not learned in that language by the power of the Holy Spirit.
So the idea of tongues even being needed in America is kind of silly. People that are going to churches speak the same languages.
Let's just use your example of someone being called to pastor a church. Tongues are not needed to reveal to that person whether or not they are called to preach. The Bible tells us that He causes us to will and to work for His purpose. The Bible says that if a man desires the office he desires a good thing. So we can see from just those two Scriptures that God causes us to will and that if we feel/sense whatever you want to say that God is leading us in that direction that it is a good thing.
Now how do we know if it is God or if it is self, or if it is demonic? Well there's a list of qualifications that are given. If you qualify on the list it's from God if your motives are pure, if you don't qualify then there's a number of things that could be at hand.
The simple matter is that everything that we need to walk in the Spirit and to live by faith is given in the Bible. We don't even need tongues for "special" revelation.
You are right in that the Bible doesn't directly affirm the negative of that statement. However there is no verse given that says Gentiles require a sign, so the logical conclusion is that signs are just for the Jews. That's why this discussion has gone circular. You are not going to see things any other way than what you see them. And that's fine. That's between you and God. I don't have time to go in circles.
The bottom line is one of us has the Truth and one of us does not. And we will both have to answer for what we believed and why.
It seems pretty cut and dry that signs were for the Jews only. Signs were done among Gentiles and even by Gentiles, but it was to provoke Israel to jealousy, becuase they knew signs were for them and here this group of "dogs" was getting things that were intended for them and were doing things that only they were supposed to do.
Obviously not even that worked as Jews continued to reject the message of the kingdom.
You have to remember what the history of Israel was all about. They were promised phyiscal promises. And therefore they needed physical assurances that what was being spoken was the truth.
So the signs were given of people being healed, showing how the nation of Israel would be healed if they would repent. Demons were driven out showing the sign of deliverance that would be given to the nation of Israel if they would repent. Thousands of people were healed supernaturally showing that if the nation would repent they would be taken care of supernaturally. Dead people were raised showing that the nation of Israel would be brought to life if they would repent. Tongues were used so that Jews of other nations that didn't speak Greek or Hebrew could here the gospel message and believe and repent.
Let me leave you with three items that I would encourage you to read through that goes much more indepth than what I am able to on a message board.
http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/phtm4/SWM1.htm
http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/phtm4/SWM2.htm
http://lampbroadcast.org/plets/phtm4/SWM3.htm
tamborine lady
Active Member
Ballion said:Have you had it interpretated by to separate interpretators? Were they in concert on the meaning?
1st Cor-27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
There is one of your errors.
The scripture says let one interpret, not 2 or 3!!
Peace,
Tam
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