Featured Does All Mean All...Does World mean All

The implication that the word "world" in Jn 3:16 only means the elect is nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of the Calvinist. Christ was speaking truth and some can't live with that so they try to make it say what it clearly doesn't Some are just to ignorant to understand what He meant. It doesn't fit there theology or what there priest have taught them.
MB

 

This includes Calvinism or warmed over Catholicism
MB

 

You're just blowing smoke. Tell me when you have actual data.

 

Go into a detailed explanation please. It seems you state this with zero support, which just means you are blowing hot air.

 

Universalism is not universal salvation. Universalism says all mankind will be saved, perhaps eventually. Salvation is for all, and is universally available. But, even the Bible says all will not be saved.

If free will is not part of God’s plan, then you are teaching a false doctrine of human philosophy that states God purposes that 90% of mankind is damned to hell, without any choice in the matter.

Your argument takes verses out of context, because it is false. It is a lie of Satan as most reformed theology is. It is all man made ideology attempting to be so called theology. Most humans do not accept free will. There is either determinism or chance. Normally all those who you condemned to hell, and you seem to apply this teaching to your own condition. Whoever thinks that God just chose them, are being deceived by Satan, just like Eve was. One would have to take all the words about will and choice out of the Bible, if one believes there is no free will. At least then their false doctrine will not contradict all those verses you quoted, and the rest of the Bible as well.

Free will:
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

To keep things as the intended definition. Necessity or fate, determinism or chance.

Discretion:
the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.

God said it was not God's Will that any should Perish. If it is not God's will, then how does condemnation even work. It is only logical to state that free will exists. Each human decides for himself to choose God's will or their own will. No force either way. No obligation either way. God kept His end of the choice, by doing everything neccessary to offer Salvation freely to all. The Atonement on the Cross was God’s plan from the beginning. No one forced Adam to disobey God. It was Adam's free choice. It was God’s free choice to create the world in love. It is the free will choice of every single descendant of Adam to accept or reject God's plan. To prove this view wrong, it is up to you to quote a verse that shows God forces a predetermined course of action on all humanity.

 

That is exactly universal salvation.

Since all will not be saved, salvation cannot be for all. It must only be for some. If it was for all...all would be saved.

A completely false statement and unsupported by scripture. In other words, you made it up.

Show me how the passages I quoted ( not just a sentence) is out of context. Once again you make an unsupported assertion.

Prove this assertion from scripture passages, kept in context, or know you are making unsupported assertions.

Prove it with scripture or know your assertion is unsupported.

Show your assertion in scripture as you are stating your philosophy.

I condemn no one. The Bible tells us about the rebellion of mankind. Why else would Christians be ambassadors preaching reconciliation (1 Corinthians 5)

Do you refuse to read the Bible? From Genesis to Revelation we read of God choosing. To deny God's choosing is to deny the Bible's very words.

Not at all. Prisoners have free will, but have no capacity to be free. To be released, a person greater than themselves must choose to pardon them.

What false doctrine? Show us in scripture or know your assertions are empty.

Please show us this definition in scripture as it relates to the capacity for a prisoner to free himself.
You are openly stating a human philosophy.

Do you declare that God has zero control over his creation and does not direct the affairs of history? If so, explain Habakkuk.

Again, you are speaking your philosophy with zero scripture.

This is a perfect example of you having no clue regarding the context of 2 Peter while you quote a phrase out of context as your prooftext to support your pretext.

I have shown you passages of scripture that explain how it works. Breaking God's law results in condemnation.

You are now openly stating a philosophy that comes from your human mind, not from scripture. You are digging your own hole.

A human can decide to leave prison his entire life, yet he has no capacity to do so. Only if a higher power chooses to pardon him can he be released and redeemed.

And here is where your flawed philosophy meets its demise. The conclusion you must make is that humans, by their own work, free themselves from prison by their choice to free themselves.
You abandon grace and you embrace salvation by human works, which is what Islam teaches as well as cults.

Of course it was. From before the foundation of the world, God chose whom he would adopt. (Ephesians 1)

Correct, God gave Adam the capacity to disobey and be enslaved by sin. But, only God had the capacity to redeem Adam out of his slavery to sin. Adam could not free himself, no matter how hard he willed it.

Indeed. It was also God's free choice to allow Adam to sin and thus be enslaved by sin.

Humans can sit in their prison of sin all their life and choose to free themselves, but it will never happen. God must choose to pardon their sins and free them from their bondage.

Question: Is God obligated to free any human from their bondage to sin?

That is your assertion. I have no need to prove your assertion. You are making the assertion, it is incumbent upon you to prove your assertion.

Now, do you deny that God is in control of his creation and that some other power now has dominion over God? If you believe God is all powerful and in full control, why do you place human will as being greater than God?

You must prove your assertions in scripture, otherwise you are making unsupported assertions and speaking a human philosophy that is not scripturally correct (meaning you are speaking a false doctrine).

 

If you put your ducks in a row, some clearly say Christ did not die for all. So the constraining ducks do not allow for "all" to apply to every person born. All, in that case, would be all the saved.

 

God gave us the free will to choose to follow Him as our Lord and Savior or not. Does that mean, by giving us the free will to choose, that God does not know what we will choose in the end? No. He knows what everyone will choose, but that doesn't mean He took away our free will.

Everything works according to God's plan for those who love God and are called according to HIS purpose.

God loves everyone, saved and unsaved, (isn't that the epitome of John 3:16?) but he hates sin, and people condemn themselves if they choose not to repent and trust in God as their Lord and master.

 

This extra-Biblical Philosophy is where your premise begins and ends;
"God gave us the free will to choose to follow Him as our Lord and Savior or not."

Teachings in The Bible are in Words Revealed by God, in The Bible.

Those in people's heads, only, can be written, but they have nothing to do with God's Message to mankind.

 

Okay, what are you arguing then? That God hates people that don't Choose Him?

Wouldn't that mean God is breaking one of His own laws? 'Love thy enemies?'

 

No.

The Bible defines 'the world' in many different ways and in John 3:16 'the world' expresses exactly what 'the world' meant in the Bible many times and in secular writtings.

God so Loved the Jews and the others in the world, also, Gentiles.

'Whosoever believes' are the individuals in John 3:16 that God has drawn with Loving Kindness because He Has Loved THEM with an Everlasting Love.

The idea that 'God Loves Everyone' is not a Bible Teaching.

God rains on the just and the unjust, who were both made after the similitude of God, however, Having Allowed Adam to prove that he was not Immutable, Like God, left all individuals under The Wrath of God.

Those who God Did Not Choose in Eternity Past, to Have their sins specifically Forgiveness with Jesus' Specific Payment for their sins, are left under the Wrath and Judgement of God, as lost children of Adam, just as we all were.

"They shall call His Name. Jesus, for He shall Die (specifically) for the sins (specifically) of His people (specifically). Matthew 1:21.

Esau have I Hated, because the sins of Esau are being met with Eternal Punishment, for the sins God Hates, as you mentioned, and not because God Could Ever be Said to Have 'Loved' Esau.

 

@Alan Gross Well in my book, if God hates someone, sinner or not, He is breaking one of His very comandments. That is a sin to hate someone. You can hate their sin, but love the person. So if the Bible can't contradict itself, then one of us is twisting scripture.

Let me give you some sciptures that show that God hates sin, and sin only, but does not Hate the person committing it.

“These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren” (Proverbs 6:16-19);

“All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house” (Hosea 9:15);

“‘Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor, and do not love a false oath, for all these are things that I hate,’ says the Lord” (Zechariah 8:17).

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.”
^
Christ is not telling us here that we must literally “hate” our parents. That should be obvious. Instead, He is saying that our love for Him must be so overpowering and all-consuming that, in comparison with it, our love for our families almost looks like “hate.”

Furthermore, you need to look at the Bible by comparing scripture with scripture, not just focus on one verse and say it means something when it means something different in the context of the ENTIRE bible.

 

To point it out another way. Say your father is upset with you, and he punishes you for breaking their mother's expensive vase. He spanks him. Now, does that mean the father now hates his son? No. It means he hates what his son has done. Same concept applies to God with those he punishes for rejecting Him.

 

No one chooses God that God did not Give the Conviction of their sins against Him through the Word that Teaches there is none good, no not one.

The individual soul that God Enables to be Convicted, may Be Given REPENTANCE Toward their sins that Convict them of their Hopelessness and Inability before The Eternal Holy God of The Universe.

The soul that is Given REPENTANCE of their sins, to agree with God that they are wicked, Are Granted FAITH, to Trust and Believe that the Payment Jesus Made WAS FOR THEM, PERSONALLY, as Planned from Eternity Past.

There is no argument "That God hates people that don't Choose Him?"

They Hate God.

And God Hates their sins, in which they eventually suffer in Hell, Forever.

...

"What that is he hates, that is sin;

and this is consistent with his not hating any of his creatures;

for sin is no creature of his;

he is not the author of sin;

all the creatures he made were very good;

but sin was not among them;

every creature of God is good, and not to be refused, rejected, and hated by men;

as none are by God, as such;

but sin is not any of them.

Sin must be hateful to God, since it is so contrary to his nature, to his will, and to his righteous law.

All sin is an abomination to him;

but there are some sins that are particularly observed as hated by him, as idolatry, #De 16:22 #Jer 44:3-5

perjury, #Zec 8:17

all insincere and hypocritical acts of worship, #Isa 1:14,15 Am 5:21

sins against the two tables of the law; as murder, which stands among the six things which God hates, #Pr 6:16-18

fornication, adultery, community of wives; the deeds of the Nicolaitans he is said to hate, #Re 2:6,15

theft, robbery, rapine, and violence of every sort;

all kind of injury to the persons and properties of men, #Ps 11:5 Isa 61:8

and every evil thing a man may imagine against his neighbour, #Zec 8:17."

Both paragraphs adapted from:
A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity

By John Gill
Doctrinal Divinity~Book 1

Chapter 18:

Of The Hatred Of God His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 1, Chapter 18

There are some {1} that deny that hatred belongs to God; or that he hates anything; and urge a passage in the Apocrypha,

``Thou lovest all beings, and hatest none of these that thou hast made; '' (Wisdom 11:24)

which is true of the creatures of God, as such;

for as they are made by him they are all very good;

and are loved, delighted in, and not hated by him.

Nor is hatred to be considered as a passion in him, as it is in men;

who is a pure, active Spirit, and is solely agent, and not a patient;

is not capable of suffering anything: much less as it is a criminal passion, by which men, in their worst estate, are described, "hateful", and "hating one another", #Tit 3:3 since he is a perfectly holy Being, and without iniquity.

Yet the scriptures do, in many places, attribute to him hatred both of persons and things, #Ps 5:5 Zec 8:17

and most truly and rightly;

and this may be concluded from love being in God, as has been shown;

though this is made use of as an argument against it, because opposite to it;

but where there is love of any person or thing, there will be an hatred of that which is contrary to the object loved: thus good men, as they love those that are good, like themselves, and good things, so they hate that which is evil;

they love God, the chiefest good;

and they hate sin, the chiefest evil, as diametrically opposite to him, #Ps 97:10 Am 5:15.

So the righteous Lord, as he loves righteousness and righteous men, his people;

as they are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and found in the ways of righteousness, so he hates unrighteousness, and unrighteous men;

for to the Son of God he saith, "thou lovest righteousness, and hatest iniquity;

therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows", #Ps 45:7 besides, it is a virtue, yea grace, in good men, to hate sin that dwells in them, and is committed by them, as the apostle did, #Ro 7:15 for without the grace of God it is not hated;

and also to hate them that hate the Lord, as David did, and for the truth of which he appeals to God, "Do not I hate them, O Lord that hate thee? I hate them with perfect hatred", #Ps 139:21,22.

Now if it is a virtue, or owing to the grace of God in them, that they do hate sin and sinners, then this must come from God, from whom all grace, and every good gift comes; and consequently must be in him, in a higher degree, even in the most perfect manner;

to all which may be added, that hatred, when ascribed to God, sometimes signifies no other than his will to punish sin and sinners, and his execution of it, #Ps 5:5,6 and so is an act of justice, of punitive justice;

"And is God unrighteous, who taketh vengeance?"

No; he is righteous in that, as he is in all his works, #Ro 3:5."

 

Why are you just posting irrelevant paragraphs from other people? You're not answering my question @Alan Gross Do YOU believe that God HATES the people that reject Him and who condemn themselves to hell?

Do you BELIEVE THAT HE HATES SINNERS WHO DO NOT REPENT?

If you BELIEVE THAT, then you are mistaken. God loves mankind, that is why he sent His son who died for ALL PEOPLE'S SINS, but in order to be saved, we, who were once sinners, must turn away from our sins and put our faith and trust in God, and that is when, on our part, our sins are forgiven for we have accepted God's gift of grace.

Answer my above question, a firm 'yes' or 'no' will suffice. Stop trying to twist my words. Never once did I say that anyone was inherently 'good'. All of us are sinners. We all deserve hell but God loves us regardless and wants our love in return, if we choose not to love and obey God, He will let us perish, but that doesn't mean he ever stopped loving us.

 

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 1, Chapter 18

Doctrinal Divinity~Book 1

Chapter 18:

Of The Hatred Of God

2. Who they are that God hates;

and they are sinners, "workers of iniquity", #Ps 5:5 not men, as men, but as sinful men;

and not all that sin, or have sin in them;

for then all would be hated, for all have sinned in Adam, and by; actual transgressions;

and none, even the best of men, are without it, #Ro 3:23 1Jo 1:8

but "workers" of it, traders in it,
whose whole lives are one continued series of sinning;

to those it will be said, I "never knew you"; I never loved you, I always hated you; "depart from me, ye that work iniquity", #Mt 7:23,

make a trade of it;

make it the business of their lives, continually and constantly commit it, #Joh 8:34 1Jo 3:8,9

and God is impartial, he hates "all the workers of iniquity;

and brings down his indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile", #Ro 2:8,9.

The scriptures speak of hatred of some persons antecedent to sin, and without the consideration of it;

which, though it may be attended with some difficulty to account for; yet may be understood in a good sense, and consistent with the perfections of God, and with what has been said of his hatred of sin and sinners; for thus it is said of Jacob and Esau, personally considered;

"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated", #Mal 1:2

and which was before the one had done any good, or the other done any evil; as the apostle expressly says, #Ro 9:11-13.

"The children not being yet born, neither having done any good or evil; that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand; not of works, but of him that calleth; it was said unto her",

to Rebekah, the mother of them, while they were in her womb,

"the elder shall serve the younger; as it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".

And what is said of these, is true of all the objects of election and non-election.

And now let it be observed, that this hatred is to be understood, not of any positive hatred in the heart of God towards them, but of a negative and comparative hatred of them;

that whereas while some are chosen of God, and preferred by him, and are appointed to obtain grace and glory, and to be brought to great dignity and honour;

others are passed by, neglected, postponed, and set less by; which is called an hatred of them; that is, a comparative one, in comparison of the love shown, and the preference given to others; in this sense the word is used in #Lu 14:26.

"If any man hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple":

the meaning of which cannot be, that a man must have positive hatred of such near relations, and of his own life;

but that he should be negligent of these in comparison of Christ;

postpone them to him, set less by them, have a less affection for them than him, and so prefer him unto them; in like sense are we to understand the above expression concerning Esau, and all reprobates: and that this may appear yet clear, it should be observed,

that in this business there are two acts of the divine will;

the one is a will not to bestow benefits of special goodness;
not to give grace, nor to raise to honour and glory:

and this God may do antecedent to, and without any consideration of sin; but act according to his sovereign will and pleasure, since he is under no obligation to confer benefits, but may bestow them on whom he pleases; as he himself says,

"Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" #Mt 20:15.

The other act of the divine will is, to inflict evil; and that is always for sin, and in consideration of it; for though sin is not the cause of the act of the will, it is the cause of the thing willed, which is not willed without the consideration of it; they are the wicked God has made, or appointed to the day of evil, and no other; ungodly men, whom he has foreordained to that condemnation, vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction by sin; on whom it is the will of God to show his wrath, and make his power known, #Pr 16:4 Jude 1:4 Ro 9:22.

In the one act, hatred, or a denial of grace, is without the consideration of sin;

in the other, hatred, or a will to punish, is with it;

punishment being only willed for it:

but then God never hates his elect in any sense;

they are always loved by him;
to which hatred is opposite:
he may be angry with them, and chastise them for their sins;

yea, he may, as he says, and as they apprehend, in a little wrath hide his "face" from them;

but he never hates them; though he hates their sins, and shows his resentment at them, he still loves them freely;

renews, and raises them up by repentance, when fallen into sin, and manifests and applies his pardoning grace to them, and never bears any hatred to their persons."

 

I don't want to read OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS. I want YOUR opinion @Alan Gross

Pray that God gives you wisdom to answer, and not to let the devil tempt you to answer in worldly/human wisdom. Does God hate sinners? (unrepentant sinners I am speaking of) Or does He Not?

 

No Bible for: "God loves mankind",

No Bible for: "that is why he sent His son"
( because "God loves mankind")

No Bible for: "who died for ALL PEOPLE'S SINS",

No Bible for: "but in order to be saved, we, who were once sinners, must turn away from our sins and put our faith and trust in God, and that is when, on our part, our sins are forgiven for we have accepted God's gift of grace."

This last one indicates A TESTIMONY that an individual 'saves' themselves, and are their own 'Saviour' and that Jesus is NOT their Savior.

No Bible for: "we" ... "turn away from our sins and put our faith and trust in God" .... "on our part, our sins are forgiven for we have accepted God's gift of grace."

Salvation is of The Lord.

Sinners must be CONVICTED by The Holy Spirit, through The Word of God AND BE PERFECTLY WILLING to GIVE UP THINKING:

"we" ... "turn away from our sins and put our faith and trust in God" .... "on our part, our sins are forgiven for we have accepted God's gift of grace."

Jesus is The Savior of Spiritually dead souls, who have NO CAPABILITY to "accept" or not "accept" ANYTHING SPIRITUAL.

Those things are non-Biblical philosophies, not Taught anywhere in The Bible.

No Bible for them.

Conviction of Inability comes before Repentance and Faith.

Once a soul is Convicted that they have NO ABILITY to do anything toward God, but sin,

... they DO NOT take up a philosophy about having some 'ability' to 'accept', or 'believe', or 'have faith', or 'choose', etc.

They already know they were IN NEED of A SAVIOR
... and that THEY WERE NOT IT.

 

"workers of iniquity", #Ps 5:5,

from;
A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity

By John Gill

Doctrinal Divinity~Book 1

Chapter 18:

Of The Hatred Of God

pt. #2

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 1, Chapter 18

 

@Alan Gross

To say we do not a have a choice to accept God or reject Him is making us seem like robots who are controlled by God and it is God who MAKES us choose to love Him or accept Him. God GAVE US FREE WILL TO CHOOSE. He grants us the Salvation for it is a FREE GIFT GIVEN BY GOD, but WE HAVE THE CHOICE TO ACCEPT OR REJECT IT AND GUR OWN WAY. God already knows what we choose, but that doesn't mean He MADE us choose to believe or not. We have that choice.Never did I say we save ourselves, God does the saving through His holy spirit and power, we just merely need to have a repentant heart and willingness to believe that Jesus died for us and loves us. Love saved me, not an argument, not God who made me 'choose' against my free will, I chose because God loved me first, even when I hated him for years, He chose me before I was born, but I was never made to choose Him against my will. He chose us, and we either choose Him back or not. End of story, period.

I'm done talking to you. The more i spend on this forum the more I realize there are SO MANY blind and ignorant and foolish so called 'Christians'. I will not continue discussing this topic with you, for you are going by your own wisdom and not thinking with the Mind of Christ.

Have a blessed rest of your day, I will remember to pray for you and all the misguided sheep on here.