Is God living on a timeline?
You seem to be telling God what He can or cannot do.
On the Mt of Transfiguration were there any OT saints with Jesus?
You seem hung up on something that is basically irrelevant.
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Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?
- Thread starter Darrell C
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You seem to be telling God what He can or cannot do.
On the Mt of Transfiguration were there any OT saints with Jesus?
You seem hung up on something that is basically irrelevant.
On the contrary, you are the one stating God did something that Scripture makes clear He didn't.
That is the purpose of honing in on the fact that the Testament was not in force (meaning, by Biblical definition it had no power) until the Testator died.
You are so close to realizing that truth, Ken. The problem is you don't want to admit you are wrong. You do not want to admit the doctrines of men which you have embraced are wrong.
Here are some statements you have made:
It wasn't a done deal: Christ had to die.
I throw this in because it shows that it is not the Word of God you go to, but the doctrines of men.
This is not what Scripture teaches. Again, I will use a different translation:
Hebrews 9:15 New American Standard Bible
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the violations that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where there is a covenant, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
17 For a covenant is valid only when people are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
The New was not valid prior to Christ's death. You aren't going to change that.
You admit it when you are faced with the incontrovertible statement of Scripture:
Retroactive means "after the fact."
Then you try to backtrack:
That God knew from eternity past every believer that would be saved doesn't change what He has stated in His Word.
The redemption of the Old Testament was retroactive. The New Covenant would not be in force until the Testator died.
Why is it so hard for you to simply admit that and to admit that the false doctrine that the Atonement was active throughout Biblical History is error?
God bless.
True, the Law was established with Israel alone, however, that did not mean there was not a provision for Gentiles. Cornelius is a good example of a Gentile convert and proselyte.
All Gentiles who hear the Law had to come into conformity with the Law. Those who had not heard the written Law nor been exposed to the Covenant of Law were given the provision of the internal witness God gives to men and women outside the scope of revelation (as well as the witness of Creation) Romans 1-2)
Two things I want you to notice:
1. Despite the Law, and remission of sins through the sacrifices of the Law—all men were still under the penalty of sin. Why? Because their sin had not yet been atoned for. It is not a matter that "...all are under sin except those who have died," but all are (still) under sin.
2. More importantly: Jew and Gentile are divided, they are not "one new man in Christ." That is not a matter of "Israel was in Christ and it is not until Christ dies that Gentiles are added in," but that both are a "new" man, not an enlarged group.
I didn't sin in Adam, I sinned in my own unique, wicked way:
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Neither you nor I will be charged with eating of the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Life. This is mythology and a doctrine of men.
That has never been denied in this discussion, thus is irrelevant. It doesn't help the doctrine you are trying to teach.
Continued...
I agree, Eternal Redemption is the only means of Eternal Salvation. The problem you are having is that you fail to rightly divide the Word. And you use out-of context prooftexts to support your doctrine. Here is a relevant passage and I will use the ESV this time to make it easier to understand:
Hebrews 9:12-15 English Standard Version
12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify[a] for the purification of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.[c]
In regards to this ...
Ezekiel 16 King James Version
1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
This is in reference to Israel's creation, not her redemption.
Context is pretty important, Ken.
Continued...
Also a picture of Israel's redemption, which took place when Jew and Gentile began to be made one in Christ:
Ephesians 2:11-16 King James Version
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
No man was in Christ prior to the Atonement.
No man was reconciled to God prior to the Atonement.
Both Jew and Gentile were under sin and in need of Eternal Redemption.
Continued...
"That we might be made..."
Can't forget that.
Promise is promise until it is fulfilled, and that was fulfilled through the death of Christ:
Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
And how were David's sins covered in his day?
The sacrifices of the Law.
Vicarious animal sacrifice that allowed men to continue living physically (rather than receiving the penalty for sin, death) was established in the Garden:
Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Notice Abel is justified by animal sacrifice? He is declared righteous specifically because of his sacrifice? Which was an animal sacrifice?
Genesis 4:4-5 King James Version
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
But this is contrasted with the New Covenant Provision:
Hebrews 12:22-24 King James Version
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Note that Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, which was not in force until He died. Simply can't deny it, Ken.
Now, to expand a little bit, note "the spirits of just men" in v. 23: this is a reference to the Old Testament Saint.
They were just, but they were not made perfect (complete). We know this because the Writer has just told us this throughout the Book of Hebrews.
Consider again:
Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Scripture makes this subject very clear for those who are not sidetracked by the doctrines of men. Atonement was not applied to the Old Testament Saint until Christ died, and then the justified Old Testament Saint was made complete in regards to remission of sins.
They died still in need of a Savior. They were saved from the eternal perspective, but their spirits went to Sheol/Hades to await Eternal Redemption. Their sins were not covered by the Blood of Christ (His Death, His Sacrifice, His Offering) until applied when He actually died in their stead.
God bless.
The shed blood of the animals in the OT sacrifices were never able to actually remit sins, as they were pointing towards the true Lamb of God whose shed blood would do that, as all ever saved have been by that Cross of Christ, never by any law!
and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. Rom 8:11 YLT
'Do I bring to the birth, And not cause to bring forth?' saith Jehovah, 'Am not I He who is causing to beget? I have also restrained,' said thy God. Isa 66:9
and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, Gal 4:26
Has Jerusalem above the mother of us all, brought forth or yet to bring forth, her children?
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body; so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:44-46 To date that can only be speaking of Jesus of Nazareth.
And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first, Col 1:18
because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; (So born) Rom 8:29 YLT
Before she is pained she hath brought forth, Before a pang cometh to her, She hath delivered a male. Isa 66:7 YLT first born out of the dead
Who hath heard anything like this? Who hath seen anything like these? Is earth caused to bring forth in one day? Born is a nation at once? (entering the kingdom of God) For she hath been pained, Zion (Jerusalem above the mother of us all) also hath borne her sons. (conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren
Isa 66:8
1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Paul, how are Larry, Curly and Mo going to enter the kingdom of God? They have all died.
Answer Verse 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
'Do I bring to the birth, And not cause to bring forth?' saith Jehovah, 'Am not I He who is causing to beget? I have also restrained,' said thy God. Isa 66:9
and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, Gal 4:26
Has Jerusalem above the mother of us all, brought forth or yet to bring forth, her children?
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body; so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:44-46 To date that can only be speaking of Jesus of Nazareth.
And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first, Col 1:18
because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; (So born) Rom 8:29 YLT
Before she is pained she hath brought forth, Before a pang cometh to her, She hath delivered a male. Isa 66:7 YLT first born out of the dead
Who hath heard anything like this? Who hath seen anything like these? Is earth caused to bring forth in one day? Born is a nation at once? (entering the kingdom of God) For she hath been pained, Zion (Jerusalem above the mother of us all) also hath borne her sons. (conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren
Isa 66:81 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Paul, how are Larry, Curly and Mo going to enter the kingdom of God? They have all died.
Answer Verse 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Egad, when did you become so sensitive? Are you 'woke' now? 'Dispy' has always simply been an abbreviation for Dispensationalism. Two syllables vs six.
KenH
Well-Known Member
True.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
KenH
Well-Known Member
God says you did.
Romans 5:9 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (emphasis mine)
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (emphasis mine)
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (emphasis mine)
KenH
Well-Known Member
"The whole is an emblem of the state and condition the elect of God are in, when they are quickened by him; who are by their first birth unclean; under the pollution, power, and guilt of sin; wallowing and weltering in it; deserving of the wrath of God, and liable to punishment for it; trodden under foot, quite neglected and despised in all appearance; and are both hopeless and helpless: when the Lord "passes" by them, not by chance, but on purpose, knowing where they are; and this he often does by the ministry of the word, under which they are providentially cast; and where he "sees" them, and looks upon then, not merely with his eye of omniscience, much less with an eye of scorn, contempt, and abhorrence; but with an eye of pity and compassion, and even of complacency and delight in their persons, though not in their sins: and when he speaks life into them, a principle of spiritual life; or quickens them by his word, so that they live a life of faith and holiness, which issues in everlasting life: this flows from divine love, and is the effect of divine power; it is of pure rich grace, and not of man's merit; as his case, being in his blood, and dead in sins, show; see Eph 2:4."
John Gill, commentary on Ezekiel 16:6, Gill's Bible Commentary
KenH
Well-Known Member
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:" - "A "new heart" and a "new spirit" are one and the same; that is, a renewed one; renewed by the Spirit and grace of God; in which a new principle of life is put; new light is infused; a new will, filled with new purposes and resolutions; where new affections are placed, and new desires are formed; and where there are new delights and joys, as well as new sorrows and troubles; the same which in the New Testament is called the "new man", and the new creature, Eph 4:24."
"and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh," - "this is a heart hardened by sin, and confirmed in it; destitute of spiritual life and motion; senseless and stupid, stubborn and inflexible; on which no impressions are made; and which remains hard and impenitent: now this is in "the flesh", in corrupt nature; and this hardness of heart is natural to men; and all who have it are after the flesh, or are carnal; and it requires omnipotence to remove it; it cannot be taken out by men of themselves: nor by ministers of the word; nor by the bare mercies and judgments of God; but by the powerful and efficacious grace of God; giving repentance unto life; working faith in the soul, to look to a crucified Christ; and shedding abroad the love of God in the heart, which softens and melts it; all which is done by the Spirit, and frequently by means of the word."
"and I will give you an heart of flesh." - "a heart sensible of sin and danger; a penitent one, soft and tender, through the love and fear of God; a spiritual and sanctified heart; submissive to the will of God; flexible and obsequious to the commands of Christ; on which impressions are made by the grace of God; where the laws of God are written, the Gospel of Christ is put; where Christ himself is formed; where are the fear of God, faith, hope, and love, and every other grace."
- John Gill, commentary on Ezekiel 36:26, Gill's Bible Commentary
Who are you calling sensitive?!
Why you ...
Just kidding, lol.
Nothing I said means I am sensitive, I simply pointed out someone using a slur.
And you know that is what it is. You know the vitriol spewed by those who use this word.
Well, it is true that I've only had three cups of coffee today ...
By the way, the "woke" are usually the ones name-calling.
It's the "right" usually pointing that out.
Right. If you say so.
God bless.
What this says is that Mankind became sinners through Adam's sin, it doesn't say we sinned in Adam.
The idea is based on the erroneous notion that there is some spiritual meaning to us doing something "when we were in the loins" of our fathers.
I didn't eat of the Tree of the fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil, hence I did not sin in Adam. I sinned when I was born, grew up to be old enough to make my own decisions, and did that which was contrary to God's will.
Likewise, Adam was not a heavy metal-playing drunk and drug addict. He wasn't disobedient and disrespectful of my mother and father.
That was me.
RIght: the penalty of death passed to all men because Adam was thrust out of the Garden and no longer had access to a source of everlasting life. If he hadn't goofed it up one of his children would have.
And the key point here is that it is through Christ that men receive life. Not by keeping the Law, not by believing God will give us a son from a wife beyond the years of bearing.
Christ alone.
And that is the topic of this thread, Ken.
Let's stay on topic if possible, lol.
God bless.
Why would I be interested in the doctrines of men when I have Scripture?
You need to learn to defend your position from Scripture, brother. You shouldn't have to run to other men to be able to defend what you believe. Until you are able to do that, you simply believe what other men believe, and cannot for yourself claim those doctrines as your own.
God bless.
Again, you run to someone to defend you, and you miss the entire point of the post.
Let me try to simplify this, just as we have with whether the New Covenant was in effect prior to the death of the Testator:
Do you really not understand that "the new man" that is made of both Jew and Gentile in Christ ...
...shows that Jew and Gentile were not in Christ prior to Christ coming and making them one?
God bless.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I disagree. Are you intimating that all of this things you have written in this thread are out of your own head - you have never ever heard any of those things you have written in this thread in a sermon or Bible study, never read anything like what you have written in a book or an article?
All that I write is a product derived from many hours of study and discussion.
It is quite obvious my doctrine does not stand in agreement with any one group or theological system.
Of course, but everything I have heard has been put to the test of Scripture. What I see being disproved by the Word of God is tossed out.
What I see in Scripture is what I try to maintain, and if it fails the test, again, it is tossed out.
Understand, Ken, I debate with my brothers because I am first testing my own doctrine. I want someone to show me where something I have embraced is weak or false.
That's how we help each other, brother.
God bless.
KenH
Well-Known Member
1) My aim is not to defend myself; my aim is to proclaim the gospel of Christ.
2) Ephesians 4:20-24 But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (emphasis mine)
Colossian 3:8-11 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. (emphasis mine)
2 Corinthians 5:16-17 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (emphasis mine)
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