Featured The Doctrine of Election in a Nutshell

Sigh...you have bought the dispensational kool-aid and drank it. Dispensationalism is a really bad breakdown of God's work of redemption with mankind. It tries to force God into changing because it fails to grasp God as a covenantal God whose redemption is always by grace alone and whose justification is always by faith alone.
The failure of dispensationalism to grasp the function of the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant as God's choice by which God brings the Promised One, not God's means of salvation is truly an err by dispensationalists.
From Adam until today, God has saved by grace alone. It is expressed in Genesis 3 and it is impressed upon all the scripture. We see in all scripture that God chooses whom he saves by grace. The means of salvation never changes because God never changes.

I was raised in dispensationalism. When you read the Bible and let the Bible lead your understanding, you come to realize that dispensationalism is a terrible system of looking at the Bible

 

@AustinC, Well you should know the Bible teaches a dispensationalism aka God's stwardship not man's.

 

Those that Paul told were chosen in Him from the foundation of the world in the earlier part of the letter?
That were predestinated to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself?

I agree.

I also see that after they believed ( please refer to Acts of the Apostles 13:48...who believes and who does not? ) , they were sealed with the Spirit to the day of their bodily redemption...

But their souls were redeemed at the cross.

 

Adam & Eve had a God given freedom of the will prior to the fall. They were tempted by an outside force, Satan. They had the freedom to resist the temptation but they accepted and fell for the temptation of the tempter and they followed him instead of listening to God.

Now fallen man when influenced by the gospel has a choice, resist the gospel message or accept it and trust in Christ Jesus for his salvation. So if while they had a freewill Adam & Eve could be tempted by a demonic force like Satan and thus be led to do evil why couldn't a fallen creature when confronted by God Himself through the gospel why couldn't they resist the devil and accept the the offer of grace? That Adam and Eve can be tempted to do bad but for some reason man can't be drawn or called or wooed by the gospel is logically inconsistent. Is Satan more powerful, is God is too weak to overcome that deadness in man?

Can He only overcome the deadness in the “elect”?

If you say, as Calvinists do, that He only wanted to save the elect then that becomes a problem because it begs the question, why wouldn't God send a message that was sufficiently clear for the lost to hear and for them to be able to respond to it. You give them a really good excuse for not responding to it, they can always say well you didn't send me a clear message you didn't say I love you. You didn't want me you didn't provide a way for me to be saved I was unable to come to you by your design.

That takes away or avoids the blameworthiness of the sinner because it ultimately gives them a good excuse for their rebellion against the things of God. They were born unable to do anything but rebel against God. So why are you blaming them for doing what was ultimately decreed for them to be and to do from birth.

For some reason the Calvinist ignores the scriptures that tell us God loves His creation and wants all to come to Him. John 3:16-17, 1 Timothy 2:3-4. Jesus is our savior John 14:6 if you will just hear and believe the gospel Romans 1:16, Ephesians 1:13-14.

 

LOL, folks, behold the mind reader who knows what all other believers believe. I kid you not...

1) AustinC does not know or denies that Logos was chosen to be the Lamb of God.
2) Ephesians 1:4 refers to "chosen in Him" which refers to the corporate election of those the chosen Redeemer would redeem.
3) Hebrews 9 supports individual election during our lifetime. Christ obtained the means of eternal redemption by His sacrifice.
4) The fact those placed into Him are seated in the heavenlies is not in dispute and is thus non-germane.

The Doctrine of Election is a Nutshell: "God chooses the individuals He will save."

Does this tell us whether the election is corporate or individual? Yes, our election to salvation is individual.

Does this tell us when God chooses us individually? No. But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us God uses our faith in the truth to make His Election, thus individual election occurs not before creation, but during our lifetime after God credits our faith as righteous faith

 

Dave as you you can see from the context Acts of the Apostles 13:42-48 that the Gentiles begged for more information and the Jews rejected the message. Note the words in vs 48 "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord.". The Gentiles trusted in Christ and were saved because of that.

Dave no one is saved at the cross. The atonement does not save anyone. Christ paid for the sins of mankind. The fact that God raised the Son shows His victory over death. 1 Corinthians 15:17

If a man does not trust in the Son then he is not saved. We are all sinners and are under the wrath of God until we trust in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:1-9 makes this clear. Those that meet the condition that God has set will be saved Ephesians 1:13 those that do not, even though Christ came to save them, are condemned John 3:17-18

 

Once again, you are on an island alone and are espousing unorthodox doctrines no one but you hold. You are free to continue on in your poor grasp of election.

 

The Bible shows God as covenant maker with his elect/chosen people. The rest are non participants in grace.

 

Ephesians 1:10
Ephesians 3:2
Colossians 1:25

 

One thing you can always be assured of. Austin will disagree with what the bible says in favour of his errant theology but will claim that everyone else is wrong.

The bible and Austin never go together.

 

All verses in the Bible. What's your point?

Also note that I have a strong distaste for plucking verses out of context as though just a phrase somehow makes a point. I note you do simple verse references that are often not connected in context. So...please make a point for these verses.

 

Now you know that Austin does not believe what the bible says unless it is read through his special calvinist glasses.

Austin seems to think he has this special enlightenment that none of the rest of us have and then he wonders why his view has been compared to Gnostic Philosophy.

 

It looks to me as if you missed it, Silverhair.
There's far more going on in God's word than just a group of people believing on Christ and God seemingly rewarding them for it.

I agree.
Salvation ( who the Lord Jesus would save ) was decided before the foundation of the world, when those that would believe were chosen "in Christ" ( Ephesians 1:3-6 ) and they later believed and were sealed by the Spirit ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ) to the day of their bodily redemption.

What happened at the cross was, their sins were laid upon their Saviour, and He bore them ( Isaiah 53:1-12 ).
The Lord Jesus did not ( and does not ) save anyone except those that the Father has given to Him ( John 17:2 ).

All for whom Christ died were redeemed ( their sin debt paid for ) at the cross ( Romans 5:10, Colossians 2:13-14 ), and none of those He died for will ever see the Lake of Fire.
They rest in His finished work on their behalf.

He shed His blood to make their salvation a sure thing.

 

No, He did not.
But I know of several places in His word where people might get that idea.

Amen.

I agree.

I disagree.
What is clear ( to me ) is that all of God's elect were, by nature, the children of wrath.

What that means to me, is that in my nature, I was the same in my spiritual "deadness" as those who will never be saved;
I was, by nature, the same in my heart and in my mind, as those who will face God's wrath.

 

Silverhair,
I think you're missing the part where the believer is saved by grace through faith...
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
God choosing men in Christ before the foundation of the world is precisely all of grace and none of works ( our efforts ).

In the above, I see you describing God "making a deal" with men, which He does not do.
He is not a respecter of persons when it comes to who gains ( and keeps ) His favor, and He never will be.


That said, I will make this my final reply in this thread.

While I have no personal animosity towards you ( and those who hold doctrines similar to what you do ), I do believe that you are in error... and that what is being proposed by the OP, as well as many on this forum who agree with him, is not the Gospel.
God choosing the believer in Christ before the foundation of the world, is as much the Gospel as what we find, for example, in 1 Corinthians 15:1-7;
and it is what Peter, Paul, John and others all testified to under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


Good evening to you.

 

I kind of knew where this was going. But you make so many mistakes in your interpretation, I don't have the time nor the energy to refute them. The clearest one is when you say that election happens when the Spirit puts the new believer into the body. That contradicts the entire NT teaching of election.

In other words, you are saying that election is corporate, for all who are in Christ are elect. So to become elect, in your presentation, you must first be a believer. This is the position of Robert Shank, who wrote "Elect in the Son." He is a Church of Christ proponent of corporate election. He also wrote "Life in the son," wherein he attempts to show that you can be a genuine believer who loses his salvation.

Ephesians1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

or ESV
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

I'm not sure if you are making bad exegetical decisions, or just repeating someone's arguments, but it falls apart.

 

This a response to Posts 73 74 & 75

Dave what did I miss in Acts of the Apostles 13:42-48? Did the Jews reject Christ, YES. Did the Gentiles trust in Christ, YES. Were the gentiles saved because they believed, YES.

Dave you are reading into the scripture want you want to see. No one was saved before creation, that is just a man-make philosophy. The mere fact that you would put forward such an idea makes me question your understanding of scripture just as you question mine. What God decided before creation was that those that were in Christ, through faith, would be saved. That is why we are all under the wrath of God until we trust in His son.

Now Dave you said “that all for whom Christ died were redeemed ( their sin debt paid for ) at the cross” While I would agree that the sin debt of all those Christ died for was paid at the cross. Since I am not sure what meaning you have attached to the word “redeemed” as Calvinists like to use special meanings for words I will pass on that for the time being.

Now who did Christ die for according to the bible? Well there are a few verses the tell us Romans 5:6 the ungodly, Romans 5:8 sinners. Which would mean all of us as we all have fallen short haven’t we Romans 3:23 so we are still under the wrath of God until we trust in His son John 3:36.

So the question becomes how and when does one trust in the Son. Well again scripture helps us with the answer. We need to trust in the Son but how? Romans 1:16 provides the answer, the gospel. But just hearing the gospel is not enough is it, we have to believe it Ephesians 1:13 and then we will confess Christ Romans 10:9-10 unto salvation. So as you see no one was saved before creation.

Now why would you deny that Christ paid the sin debt for all men. Do you think He is incapable of doing so or do you not think the Holy Spirit knew what He wanted to say? 1 Timothy 2:5-6 is clear that Christ is our mediator and that He did pay the ransom for all.

Dave you make it clear by your comments regarding Ephesians 2:1-9 that you are reading into the text what you want to find. You need those verse to refer only to the “elect”. That is clear eisegesis on your part. You are just denying clear scripture in favour of your errant theology.

Dave the fact that you will not trust what the bible says has been shown by your comments in these posts. I am glad that you agree that a man is saved by God’s grace through faith just as we see here Ephesians 2:8 which is what Paul was saying here Ephesians 1:13 you know hers the gospel, believe the gospel and the Holy Spirit saves. How you see man meeting the condition that God set for salvation as God “making a deal” I do not know. But what I do know is that as long as you refuse to trust the scriptures you will be in error. You are holding to a false man-made philosophical theology.

Come into the light Dave. Trust the bible.

 

Only those that are in Christ are of the elect and you are only in Christ if you believe. So logically you can not be in Christ before creation.

 

Note the profound disregard for addressing biblical views, while lashing out in ignorance.;

The Doctrine of Election is a Nutshell: "God chooses the individuals He will save."

Does this tell us whether the election is corporate or individual? Yes, our election to salvation is individual.

Does this tell us when God chooses us individually? No. But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us God uses our faith in the truth to make His Election, thus individual election occurs not before creation, but during our lifetime after God credits our faith as righteous faith

 

Note, I disregard Van's opinion which is his alone and has no essential biblical support.

Scripture tells us we were chosen/elected before the foundation of the world Scripture tells us that before birth, before we ever do right or wrong, God's choice is already set.

During our lifetime the faith which God has given us is righteous and thus we are justified by the righteous faith of God, which is given to us...individually.

Van's "corporate" theory is his own opinion without any biblical support.