Featured The Vain Fool, Child of Pride, Son of Folly Who Replies Against God's Sovereignty

Christ said no man cometh unto the Father but by (the work of) the Son. Ther ransom had to be paid by Christ that men might return to the father. That return to fellowship was to be accomplished by the Father in a particular, or demanded way. Exo 25:9, 2 Sam 2:35 for a couple of examples
:
Matt 26:39 And he went a little farther and fell on his face and prayed, O Father is it be possible, let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not as I will, but AS THOU WILT. The will of the Father can be seen as a requirement, demand, or ransom that could only be paid or fulfilled in the sacrifice of Christ. It had been prophesied and would be fulfilled according to the will of the Father.

This clearly shows that the Father required something, therefore a requirement, demand or debt, or ransom and He required/demanded it be done in a particular way that only the Son could perform or pay.

 

Before Adam sinned, he had fellowship with God. Through Adam all became sinners and it was necessary that there be a sacrifice for both Adam and his seed. That is the reason that a sacrifice was provided for both him and Eve in the garden.

Do you believe that a sacrifice can stand as a payment? Did not Christ stand in our stead, the just for the unjust?

 

I'll reply in more detail later on, but in view of John's 'undeviating meaning of world,' would you like to comment on 1 John 2:15-17?

 

The wrath to come has to do with the tribulation period.

 

JonC,

It is difficult to justify your statement that "for over a mellenia Christians did not see what you said is "clearly seen" without you providing evidence of its source. Augustine and the catholics are not a reliable source and mean nothing to me. I am a Baptist. I have to ask what is the source or writings for your conclusion?

The dominion of darkness has been in existence since before the time of Adam. It is the ability of Satan to deceive a people by perverting the truth of God. It is how Satan tried to deceive Christ when he quoted scripture in error, just as he did in the garden.

It is the reason Christ told the Pharisees in John 8:44 Ye are of your Father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, (by perverting scripture), he speaketh of his own; for he is a liar and the father of it. This describes the dominion of darkness. The dominion of darkness covers not only the man on the street corner dealing drugs but above all extends up to the highest realms of a perverted doctrine of "whom say ye that I am" in the churches.

It is also seen in the perverting of the righteousness of the Law. (Romans 10:3) It is the reason Christ had to come to show Israel that he was the express image of the Father, (John 17:3), so they would no longer seek the Father by the types and shadows that Satan used to deceive, resulting in them calling good evil and evil good.

Christ, the express, exact, true image, had to be revealed so that we could be delivered from such a system of doctrine. It is the reason that Isaiah 43:10 says, "Ye are my (true) witnesses, sayeth the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

It was the Father's will to deliver us from such a system of lies (a thing of naught) that we might know him. This is the salvation spoken of in John 17:3.

Ransom will always indicate a debt that must be paid in order to redeem the debtor.

Psalms 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem (by paying the required ransom or debt) his brother, nor GIVE TO GOD a ransom for him. This is proof that God does require a ransom and that ransom payment is to redeem the brethren taken captive by the deception of Satan. Since none of the brethren could pay that ransom, then the Father sent the Son to deliver the brethren by paying thr debt by dying for them through his life, death and resurrection. The resurrection is as important as the cross. It is that by which he is the firstborn and thus deserving of the glory given to him. It is the proof that death could not hold him and is the promise given to those in Christ. It is the proof of him being the firstborn from the dead (ones).

Isaiah 52:3 For thus sayeth the Lord, Ye HAVE SOLD YOURSELVES (therefore a debt exists) for (a thing of) naught (by perverting the scriptures from the influence of Satan), and shall be redeemed without money. Since we sold ourselves because of sin and unbelief, then a sin debt is incurred and must be paid.

Isaiah 43:3 For I am the Lord thy God, the holy one of Israel, thy savior: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. The sin debt, resulting wherein we sold ourselves for naught, has been paid in and by Christ in fulfilling the will and love of the Father in redeeming the brethren

The statement, the wages of sin, if isolated from other scriptures, does not fully explain that there is a sin debt because we sold ourselves for naught. It is related but does not fully explain the work of Christ and why he did what he did by fulfilling the will of the Father.

I hope this better explains my understanding more clearly.

 

If this does not clear up your questions, please continue to point out your objections and I will respond.

Thank you.

 

The KJV isn't nearly as accurate as several newer versions. But God gives everyone a chance for salvation, some more than others. My advice is if you hear God's call, answer it affirmatively, as you may never receive another.

 

Sorry, messed up on quote function again

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the term "sin debt". We use it in current criminal law. Prisoners are serving time to pay their "debt" to society. Colossians 2:13 talks about this and if you use several translations you see the difficulties in the precise wording. The idea is that we sin against God repeatedly and pile up a load of offense - the idea of looking at this as "debt" is Biblical and not a new invention. But it did succeed in derailing a thread on God's sovereignty, which I was enjoying and learning a lot from even though I was not contributing.

 

...done already:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mt 3

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

 

Those verses are self explanatory don't you think. Those that have trusted in God for their salvation are not to be caught up in the lusts of the flesh.

 

Well, you're right. Because like a big dummy I failed to put in verse 14. "By canceling the record of debt that stood against us with it's legal demands. This he set aside. Colossians 2:14 (ESV).

ESV, NIV and NASV are pretty clear on this. KJV you could miss it I think. My fault.