The Vain Fool, Child of Pride, Son of Folly Who Replies Against God's Sovereignty

[JonC]

You need to have, "a sin debt",
in order to be Saved.

I'm not so sure. The reason is if that were true then I would expect to see this "sin debt" in Scripture. But it isn't.

 

[KenH]

I'm not so sure. The reason is if that were true then I would expect to see this "sin debt" in Scripture. But it isn't.

Matthew 18:21-35 Peter asks a question about sin and Christ immediately tells a parable about debt.

 

[JonC]

Thus, we have no basis for a fruitful discussion as we do not believe the same thing about the atonement.

I disagree to sn extent. We both have the Bible, so that is something we have in common. But you are right that we wouldn't agree on the atonement (except for what is actually written in God's Word).

For example, we probably agree that the wages of sin is death even though we disagree about a "sin debt".

 

[JonC]

Matthew 18:21-35 Peter asks a question about sin and Christ immediately tells a parable about debt.

Yes, Jesus did use an illustration of a financial obligation when answering Peter's question about forgiving others. I agree. The illustration is what God will do to us if we do not forgive others.

 

[Alan Gross]

Know

I'm not so sure. The reason is if that were true then I would expect to see this "sin debt" in Scripture. But it isn't.

Our sin debt is our sin against God.

Conviction of our sin is necessary
to need a Savior.

Sin as Debt
Benjamin Keach.
Matthew 18:23-35
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a certain king, which would take account of his servants.…

I. That sin is a debt, a vast debt; or that there is much, yea great, exceeding great evil in sin, considered as a debt.

II. That sinners are debtors, and have nothing to pay, and therefore are forgiven freely, as an act of God's mercy, all their debts without any satisfaction made by them.

III. That God doth and will call sinners who are debtors to Him, to an account, be they willing or no.

IV. That a pardoned person, or one that God hath forgiven, does forgive from his heart all those that have injured him, and they that do not so are not, nor shall be ever forgiven.

(Benjamin Keach.)

 

[Silverhair]

Yep, you're one I had in mind when I made the post.

"Ever and anon the non-Cal cries, why doth He still find fault?" - Aaron

I thought that might be the case. You just can not stand the idea that one would actually trust the bible rather than your philosophy.

I know why God condemns and I know why He saves but you do not seem to have that figured out yet.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Then why does He say, "not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world".

He doesn't. The words 'the sins of' do not appear in any ancient manuscript. If you will look at your King James version you will see that the words are in italics to show that they have been added by the translators. If you look at the NKJV you will see that they have been (rightly) omitted.

 

[Silverhair]

Why would you want "free will" in the first place and have to rely on yourself instead of trusting in God?

Trusting is God is an act of a free will.

 

[Silverhair]

John 1:13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

(emphasis mine)

Just as it says God saves but you always overlook the reason that He saves.

 

[KenH]

Just as it says God saves but you always overlook the reason that He saves.

Apparently, you think that it is God's will to save everyone but that He cannot achieve His will because His will is thwarted by man's will. Thus, you make man's will sovereign over God's will.

 

[Silverhair]

He doesn't. The words 'the sins of' do not appear in any ancient manuscript. If you will look at your King James version you will see that the words are in italics to show that they have been added by the translators. If you look at the NKJV you will see that they have been (rightly) omitted.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

So the verse still says that He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world or do you not understand the sentence?

 

[Silverhair]

Apparently, you think that it is God's will to save everyone but that He cannot achieve His will because His will is thwarted by man's will. Thus, you make man's will sovereign over God's will.

If God's will is that all be saved and yet some are not and you say man is thwarting God's will then you must be a universalist.

Why you struggle so much against the bible I do not know. You will not trust scripture unless it fits your philosophy.

 

[KenH]

If God's will is that all be saved and yet some are not and you say man is thwarting God's will then you must be a universalist.

We have different beliefs about the atonement, but if Christ did pay the sin debt of all people, then all people will be saved. There is no way around that conclusion.

 

[Silverhair]

Apparently, "free willers" don't believe that the God of the Bible is powerful enough to do what He ordains to be for His glory nor sovereign enough to save a single one of His creatures. Apparently, the "free willers" believe that the God of the Bible is a beggar and is down on His knees begging His creatures, "Please, please let Me save you."

One of this number of "free willers" even raised the curtain a bit and admitted this: ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956].

And it would seem that the determinist does not think that God can in His sovereignty grant man the free will ability so that he can actually make real choices.

The determinist has to rely the hope that he was actually one of those pre-selected ones he has no ability to make a real choice. Even the idea that he is saved has determined for him.

 

[KenH]

And it would seem that the determinist does not think that God can in His sovereignty grant man the free will ability so that he can actually make real choices.

You insist in trusting your supposed "free will" instead of trusting in the sovereignty of God. Sounds like you are afraid that God will make a mistake(in your eyes).

 

[KenH]

Even the idea that he is saved has determined for him.

If my salvation was left up to me, then it would be a total failure.

 

[Silverhair]

We have different beliefs about the atonement, but if Christ did pay the sin debt of all people, then all people will be saved. There is no way around that conclusion.

That comes about because you are reading the bible through your calvinism. You just do not like what the bible says 1Jn_2:2 propitiation for sins of the whole world. Or do you think it means something else.
Christ covering the sins of all allows for all to be saved but they still have to trust in Him for salvation. Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Some will trust and some will not but it is their choice Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

The only conclusion that cannot be gotten around is that Christ paid for the sins of all and man has a free will and the ability to choose to trust in or reject Christ Jesus.

 

[Silverhair]

You insist in trusting your supposed "free will" instead of trusting in the sovereignty of God. Sounds like you are afraid that God will make a mistake(in your eyes).

It would seem I am the one that trust in the sovereignty of God. You need God to fit into your view of what His sovereignty can be. When He says hear & trust the gospel message you say man can't do that. When God says He desires all to be saved you says nope can't be. When the Christ says that if He is lifted up He will draw all people tom Himself you say that means only the elect. You do not trust the bible you are trusting in your calvinism.

I on the other hand trust that He in His sovereignty will do exactly as He desires. I do not put limits on what He can do or change the meaning of scripture to fit a philosophy.

 

[Silverhair]

If my salvation was left up to me, then it would be a total failure.

God saves but He only saves those that trust in the Son. Since you say that you have to do nothing, which includes believe, then you are right you are a failure as you are lost.
Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

 

[KenH]

The only conclusion that cannot be gotten around is that Christ paid for the sins of all

So you don't think that unbelief is a sin that Christ paid for and that unbelief at any time after being regenerated, even if only unbelief for a moment, means that one is lost?