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Featured Is It Possible For Modern Translators To Fall Under the Curse Of Re 22:18,19

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by JD731, Nov 4, 2023.

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  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am commenting on your last two sentences;
    Do you believe the verses I quoted, Re 22:18-19 is dealing with the curse in relation to the message or to the words?
     
    #21 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm not sure I'd agree. There are indications that Jesus knew translated Scripture. God did not instruct that Scripture be translated prior to the Church, but it was.

    In terms of evangelism, God either instructed that His Word be translated or He demanded the Church to teach Greek and Hebrew so that they could evangelize.

    I do agree that translators should be careful when translating any source, especially Scripture.

    When it comes to books like Daniel and Revelation I do expect translators not to give us meanings but to provide what the words represent in English.

    For example, if the source is German and the word is hund, then the English should be dog....not black dog, not white dog, not big dog....but dog.

    Do I believe Revelation should not be translated into English? No. Revelation was written for the Church and also carries a blessing for those who read it.
     
    #22 JonC, Nov 5, 2023
  3. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Rob, I quoted the most popular modern translation of Re 22:18-19 where God warns about a curse. He said, and the NIV and almost all other modern versions I checked A through L, with only a couple exceptions, said that the curse will be applied to those who add to or take away from the words of the prophecy of the book.

    Would you agree if it is indeed words he means, like is said in the texts, that will bring the curse if changed, and that translators are indeed in danger?
     
    #23 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Message. Otherwise Jesus would be guilty of changing the words of Scripture. There are many "quotes" in the NT (quoting the OT) that are not the exact words found in the OT. I see no reason to change how we view "logos" when we get to Revelation.

    Think of how Jesus is the Word (the "Logos").

    But if the verse means not to alter the words in terms of translating into another language then it would be wrong to do so. I simply do not believe this is what the verse means.

    What makes this more debatable is that "logos" does not necessarily mean literal words (letters strung together to make a word) as it does in English.
     
    #24 JonC, Nov 5, 2023
  5. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    You posted a line of text that I said but your comments were about something else. Try to focus, please.
     
    #25 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  6. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am commenting on your last paragraph:

    How do you get all that out of the warning in Re 22:18-19? Why give the warning if it is not true? Revelation is a prophecy and a testimony of Jesus Christ. The events from chapter 4:1 are events that will take place after the churches and Revelation 22:18-19 is a summation and warning to the churches to which it was addressed of what will happen to any who adds to or takes away from the words of the prophecy. There is no reason to not believe it is true.

    Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
     
    #26 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm curious. How do you understand "logos"? Do you believe this is the message of the prophecy or the Greek words used to communicate that message to those who knew/ know Greek?
     
    #27 JonC, Nov 5, 2023
  8. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am responding to the first two lines of your post:

    You would believe that much of our New Testament scripture is the written words of Jesus Christ in the Greek language which includes many quotes from the Hebrew language Old Testament translated into Greek. Yet Jesus said himself in John 12 that none of the words he spoke were chosen by him but by his Father. His Father told him the words to say. If Jesus was speaking in Hebrew to the Jewish people, then God inspired the Greek words the authors of the NT chose when they translated them and wrote them down. We can conclude by this that if God would have given the OT in the Greek language it would be the exact same words that were translated by the NT authors of the inspired words. They are not more nor less the words of God depending on which testament they are in. They are equally the words of God whichever testament they are written in.

    I think this would be true in any language that God the Father decided to give his words in. If there were more than one translation, like there are in the Greek language, one could rule that one could be the words of God, but certainly not more than one.

    This brings me back to the curse of Revelation. Millions of people believe the NIV, the ESV, or other modern translations is the word of God. Yet they are told the words are not the words of God actually and they encourage them to get a host of other translations with different words and the result is there is nothing really to put their trust in.

    The word of God collectively is the words chosen by the Father and it is the words that are inspired and not the men who wrote them. We must believe the words.
     
    #28 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  9. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps you do not focus and consider a consistent, just application of what you yourself suggested. My comments were clearly directed at your attempt to apply Revelation 22:18-19 inconsistently and unjustly since you refuse to apply it the same way to the translation decisions in the KJV which include dynamic equivalent renderings.

    The KJV is not a literal, word-for-word, every word English translation. According to the makers of the KJV themselves in their marginal notes, they omitted giving any English word/rendering for many original-language words of Scripture. According to the makers of the KJV themselves, they added many words for which they had no original-language words of Scripture in their underlying text as they inconsistently put some of the added words in a different type in the 1611 edition [later editions had italics for added words].

    Are you in effect suggesting that the non-literal, non-word-for-word translation decisions in the KJV violate Revelation 22:18-19?
     
    #29 Logos1560, Nov 5, 2023
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  10. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    JonC, I understand Logos to mean Jesus Christ. This in the sense that the words of God needs a voice. Jesus Christ gives all the words of God a voice and delivers them to men. In this sense he is the Word, God.

    In Gen 15, the very beginning of the 3rd millennium, Jesus Christ was revealed for the first time as the "word of the LORD" which was his title and his name was revealed as Lord GOD, or Adonai Jehovah. This is the title by which he would come to men, oftentimes visually, to deliver the word of God. You will find this title in both testaments, the last time in 1 Peter 1.
     
    #30 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I did not even mention the KJV. I actually quoted the NIV. You are off topic and you are not dealing with the subject of the thread.
     
    #31 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  12. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    No, I do not think that that is the intended purpose of the warning.
    If so even the translators of the KJV would have been condemned (refer to my first post in the thread).

    The warning is not unique. There are many passages in Revelation that were directly borrowed from the OT Scriptures. A similar warning was given by Moses in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32.

    The passage deals with the communication of God’s word (hearing God’s word).
    There are many ways to communicate a message, Christians are commended to be a witness to carry that message of good news to others. We should not fear speaking that message out of concern that a simple errant word might condemn us.

    The purpose of the passage concerns corrupting the meaning.

    Rob
     
    #32 Deacon, Nov 6, 2023
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  13. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    I am dealing with the subject of this thread which in effect concerns whether Revelation 22:18-19 applies to Bible translations. You yourself mention "English Bible translations" in this thread. The KJV is also an English Bible translation. It is not at all off topic to apply your assertions in this thread consistently and justly.

    Perhaps you seek to dodge the fact that a consistent, just application of your faulty reasoning in this thread would condemn the KJV.
     
    #33 Logos1560, Nov 6, 2023
  14. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, attempting to apply Revelation 22:18-19 to Bible translations would also condemn the makers of the KJV.
     
    #34 Logos1560, Nov 6, 2023
  15. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Well Rob, I am trying to understand the warning in the context and I do understand a high percentage of the events chronicled in the prophecy is related to a time after the churches (Re 4:1). However, the warning of Re 22:18-19 is directly given to the those to whom the letter was written and to whom it was sent, which is the churches. It seems to me then that a logical and reasonable conclusion is that the churches are those who are being warned.

    Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Who do you think these warnings are directed towards and do you think anyone is really in any danger of falling under this curse?
     
    #35 JD731, Nov 6, 2023
  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    So far no one has any idea who you think this warning is directed to, if it is a legitimate warning in Re 22:18-19, and if there will actually be some who will fall under this curse. Will you please engage the conversation in the context of the thread.
     
    #36 JD731, Nov 6, 2023
  17. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Revelation 1:1–3 (NASB 2020): The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, everything that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

    It is a warning to whoever “hears”.

    Revelation 22:18 (NASB 2020): I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book

    Rob
     
    #37 Deacon, Nov 6, 2023
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    In what way does this passage not speak of the Bible? I get that it refers directly to the book of Revelation, "this prophecy," but isn't that part of the Bible?
     
    #38 John of Japan, Nov 6, 2023
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  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    This is an excellent question, and I've thought about it many times as a Bible translator. My first answer is that no, it does not apply to a Bible translator unless that person deliberately adds content to the Bible (more on that later). One example of this is an awful version called the Eth Cepher Bible, whose "translator" (he actually just edited some things into the KJV) added a bunch of content. Look under "See Inside" at: Cepher™ Bible | Millennium Edition 2022 | Free Shipping Available.

    On the other hand, some paraphrases appear to deliberately change meanings, and if I were such a paraphraser, I'd be extremely concerned about Rev. 22.

    Here are some passages back-translated into English from the Gendaiyaku, a 1978 paraphrase done by a well-known Japanese pastor named Reiji Oyama.

    John 1:1—
    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
    「まだ、この世界も何もなかった時、すでにキリストは存在しておられた。キリストは神といっしょにおられ、また神ご自身であられた。」
    Back translation: “When there was nothing at all in this world, Christ already existed. Christ was with God, and was God himself.”

    He has substituted “Christ” for “Word,” but the term “Word” is vital in this passage in order to get across the divine Author’s intended meaning. Also, he paraphrased “In the beginning” in such a way that the connection with Gen. 1:1 is completely lost. Here is the KJV, of course: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

    John 1:2—
    Οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν.
    「このように、キリストは神ご自身であられながら、唯一の神のうちにいますもう一つの人格があって、父と子と聖霊とである。キリストは子でいます。」
    Back translation: “In this way, while Christ is God himself, within the unique God he is another person, there being the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Christ is the Son.”

    He has turned this around to his own understanding, and paraphrased badly. Compare the back translation with 29 words to the KJV with only 8 words: “The same was in the beginning with God.”

    John 3:16—
    Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
    「神は、そのひとり子でいますイエス・キリストをこの世に遣わされ、十字架上で私たちの罪の身代わりとして死 なせるほどに、私たちを愛してくださった。それは、イエス・キリストを信じる人が誰であろうと、滅びること が泣く、救われるためなのである。」
    Back translation: “God sent his only Son Jesus Christ to this world, and to the extent that he made his Son die on the cross in the place of our sin, God loved us. So, anyone who believes in Jesus Christ will not perish, but will be saved.”

    There are so many mistakes in this paraphrase that it is hard to know where to begin! He definitely is not going directly from the Greek. In the Japanese he has added thirteen words and changed two. And that isn’t even looking at the grammar!

    Changing “that” (ὥστε) to “to the extent” is horrible. But perhaps the most obvious and egregious error is changing “have eternal life” to “saved.” These renderings are very different in meaning.
     
    #39 John of Japan, Nov 6, 2023
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  20. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I think this is the gist of the whole question. Do you think the testimony of Jesus Christ that he is giving in words that have multiple meanings that must be consistent with their meanings already established in the history before this and the warning concerning is about replacing these words with words that have no connection to former established definitions? Do you think that is at least a possibility?

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    This is consistent with what Jesus said about the words he speaks in John 12, don't you think?
     
    #40 JD731, Nov 6, 2023
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