Limited free Will.

Van said:

Calvinism's defense relies on name calling because it is false doctrine. See post 17.

Click to expand...

You are confused, Van! When you learn to accept God's Word for what it says, you will come out of that trance you live in to the light.

You are totally irrational!

John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Man is totally depraved without any ability to come to Christ until He is drawn, called by the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Gospel.

The sooner you accept this, the sooner you will be taken seriously on these boards.

Charlie24 said:

You are confused, Van! When you learn to accept God's Word for what it says, you will come out of that trance you live in to the light.

You are totally irrational!

John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Man is totally depraved without any ability to come to Christ until He is drawn, called by the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Gospel.

The sooner you accept this, the sooner you will be taken seriously on these boards.

Click to expand...

More irrational argumentation, featuring "you, you, you" against the person blather. Folks, this is all Calvinism has to offer. No actual support from scripture.

Did anyone say the lost can "come to Christ" without being drawn? Nope. On and on, Calvinism is defended with false claims, misdirection and against the person argumentation. Read post 17.

Van said:

Fallen, unregenerate, natural people, made sinners at conception, have the limited spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk, but not spiritual solid food. We know that many of these people seek the narrow door but do not find it. Luke 13:24. And we know that Paul spoke to these "men of flesh" using spiritual milk, rather than spiritual solid food. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Both Calvinists and Arminians deny this Biblical doctrine, and advocate the false doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability." The Calvinists then overcome this claimed inability using the fiction of "irresistible grace." Likewise, the Arminians overcome this claimed inability using the fiction of "prevenient grace."

A review of scripture results in finding many verses that teach that the lost do at times seek God and His promises such as the rich young ruler seeking eternal life.

The false doctrine arises from reading into scripture more than what is said. For example, none seek after God. This does not say none ever seek after God, but that is how those advocating the false doctrine interpret the verse (Romans 3:11). Another expansion to support false doctrine is found at 1 Corinthians 2:14 which says that natural people (non-indwelt, lost people) are unable to understand "the things of the Spirit of God." This does not say natural people cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God, but that is how those advocating the false doctrine interpret the verse.

Click to expand...

I am so sick of this, Van, I will not tolerate a denier of the Scripture for one iota of a minute.

Spiritual milk is what one feeds on when first coming to Christ and then over time graduates to solid food.

But O vain man, why can't you see that the natural man (the unsaved man) is dead to spiritual things and is totally depraved?

Van said:

Calvinism says the lost do not seek God

Click to expand...

Just a small technicality, but it was the Apostle Paul that made that Claim. Reformed Christians just believed him and included it in out notes of "The Bible says THIS".

Romans 3:10-12 [ESV]
10 as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside;
together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one."

John says:

John 3:19-20 [ESV]
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things* hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
[which is pretty close since it is hard to SEEK what you HATE and will not come to.]

* In case there was any doubt about who "does wicked things":

Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV]
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Charlie24 said:

I am so sick of this, Van, I will not tolerate a denier of the Scripture for one iota of a minute.

Spiritual milk is what one feeds on when first coming to Christ and then over time graduates to solid food.

But O vain man, why can't you see that the natural man (the unsaved man) is dead to spiritual things and is totally depraved?

Click to expand...

On and on with the fallacious argumentation ploy of name calling. Denier of Scripture = Calvinist interpretation of Luke 13:24.

Does the fact "spiritual milk" is what new Christians feed on, negate the fact spiritual milk is what the lost are drawn to Christ with? Nope

Did anyone deny natural people are unable to understand some of the spiritual things, spiritual solid food, 1 Cor. 3:1-3? Nope

Yes, Scripture teaches the lost have limited spiritual ability, so scripture teaches total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

Folks, it boils down to this, Calvinism is false doctrine. Luke 13:24 says the lost, many of them, seek the narrow door. Calvinism claims they cannot.

They falsely claim "the things" equals "all the things" and "none seek after God" equals "none ever seek after God," and sinner do not come to the Light equals sinners never come to the light, seeking salvation. Again, they deny Luke 13:24. They deny that the rich young ruler was seeking eternal life.
They deny Romans 9:16 teaches that some of the lost will to be saved, and others do works seeking salvation. If you pile up all the verses teaching some of the lost comprise the fields white for harvest, you will have quite the Calvinist bonfire of denied verses.

Folks, note how Luke 13:24 is not addressed, other than claiming it means the opposite of what it says. But other verses, usually non-germane, are cited non-stop. Not one defender of Calvinism says, "yes, Luke 13:24 indicates many lost seek after God. Not one.

Luke 13:24 NASB
“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Luke 13:24 ESV
“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Luke 13:24 NKJV
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Van said:

On and on with the fallacious argumentation ploy of name calling. Denier of Scripture = Calvinist interpretation of Luke 13:24.

Does the fact "spiritual milk" is what new Christians feed on, negate the fact spiritual milk is what the lost are drawn to Christ with? Nope

Did anyone deny natural people are unable to understand some of the spiritual things, spiritual solid food, 1 Cor. 3:1-3? Nope

Yes, Scripture teaches the lost have limited spiritual ability, so scripture teaches total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

Folks, it boils down to this, Calvinism is false doctrine. Luke 13:24 says the lost, many of them, seek the narrow door. Calvinism claims they cannot.

They falsely claim "the things" equals "all the things" and "none seek after God" equals "none ever seek after God," and sinner do not come to the Light equals sinners never come to the light, seeking salvation. Again, they deny Luke 13:24. They deny that the rich young ruler was seeking eternal life.
They deny Romans 9:16 teaches that some of the lost will to be saved, and others do works seeking salvation. If you pile up all the verses teaching some of the lost comprise the fields white for harvest, you will have quite the Calvinist bonfire of denied verses.

Click to expand...

Van, the rich young ruler was spiritually dead, totally depraved to the fact of his needing a Savior.

That's is what the Holy Spirit cuts into the heart, soul, and spirit of man at the hearing of the Gospel.

It's impossible for man to realize this without the Holy Spirit's conviction.

Charlie24 said:

Van, the rich young ruler was spiritually dead, totally depraved to the fact of his needing a Savior.

That's is what the Holy Spirit cuts into the heart, soul, and spirit of man at the hearing of the Gospel.

It's impossible for man to realize this without the Holy Spirit's conviction.

Click to expand...

Did anyone say the rich young ruler was not spiritually dead? Nope.

What does "totally depraved to the fact" mean. Answer: Nonsense, i.e. Calvinist mumbo jumbo.

Can the lost seek God, the narrow door, even while still spiritually dead? Luke 13:24 teaches that many of the lost, spiritually dead sinner will seek the narrow door but will not find it. That means their "heart" had not be "cut into" with "Irresistible Enabling Grace." But they were among those who willed or worked to be saved. They were among those comprising the fields white for harvest.

Van said:

Did anyone say the rich young ruler was not spiritually dead? Nope.

What does "totally depraved to the fact" mean. Answer: Nonsense, i.e. Calvinist mumbo jumbo.

Can the lost seek God, the narrow door, even while still spiritually dead? Luke 13:24 teaches that many of the lost, spiritually dead sinner will seek the narrow door but will not find it. That means their "heart" had not be "cut into" with "Irresistible Enabling Grace." But they were among those who willed or worked to be saved. They were among those comprising the fields white for harvest.

Click to expand...

The rich young ruler was searching for God on his own terms, that is not the criteria in which Isaiah and Paul were stating, "no one calls on God."

The criteria is "no one understands." The rich young ruler was making a futile attempt in searching for God being spiritually dead and totally depraved from the Truth, through sin.

Van said:

Folks, note how Luke 13:24 is not addressed, other than claiming it means the opposite of what it says. But other verses, usually non-germane, are cited non-stop. Not one defender of Calvinism says, "yes, Luke 13:24 indicates many lost seek after God. Not one.

Luke 13:24 NASB
“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Luke 13:24 ESV
“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Luke 13:24 NKJV
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Click to expand...

What the heck dude, did you actually read the paragraph that you plucked that verse from?

Luke 13:22-30 [NKJV]
And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' "then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' "But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. "They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. "And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."

THESE are the people you are claiming seek God?
The people that GOD HIMSELF announces "I do not know you" and "Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity."
Why does God say this? ... because they came knocking "once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door". These people are seeking God when they stand before God at JUDGEMENT, not "while he may be found". [Isaiah 55:6]

How does THAT prove natural ability when God directly says "I never knew you"?

The two options are:

1. They did not seek the true God in life (like Romans 1 - "although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image" - and Romans 3 - "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." -talk about).

2. Supralapsarianism and Hard Determinism ... they begged God to accept them as they honestly seek him in life and it was GOD that refused to allow them to be saved.

Which of those is the BIBLICAL option?

Folks, notice that Luke 13:24 has been addressed.

Van said:

Note Luke 13:24 teaches many of those "dead in trespasses and sins" seek the narrow door, so the claim being "spiritually dead" results in total spiritual inability is total fiction.

Click to expand...

Luke 13:24. "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
So the many, seeking to enter, are not able to do so. So the claim being "spiritually dead" results in "limited spiritual ability" is total fiction.

Martin Marprelate said:

Luke 13:24. "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
So the many, seeking to enter, are not able to do so. So the claim being "spiritually dead" results in "limited spiritual ability" is total fiction.

Click to expand...

Can you believe this line of reasoning? They say no lost person ever seeks after God. Scripture says lost people seek the narrow door.. So the conclusion is the lost do not have the limited spiritual ability to seek God.

Bottom line, Calvinists must offer absurdity, or against the person or subject change posts to hide their total fiction doctrines.

atpollard said:

What the heck dude, did you actually read the paragraph that you plucked that verse from?

Luke 13:22-30 [NKJV]
And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' "then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' "But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. "They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. "And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."

THESE are the people you are claiming seek God?
The people that GOD HIMSELF announces "I do not know you" and "Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity."
Why does God say this? ... because they came knocking "once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door". These people are seeking God when they stand before God at JUDGEMENT, not "while he may be found". [Isaiah 55:6]

How does THAT prove natural ability when God directly says "I never knew you"?

The two options are:

1. They did not seek the true God in life (like Romans 1 - "although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image" - and Romans 3 - "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." -talk about).

2. Supralapsarianism and Hard Determinism ... they begged God to accept them as they honestly seek him in life and it was GOD that refused to allow them to be saved.

Which of those is the BIBLICAL option?

Folks, notice that Luke 13:24 has been addressed.

Click to expand...

I had to smile at this one!!

1) I am addressed with the implication I do not know what I am talking about. So yet another fallacy, the old against the person dodge.

2) Next since the people do not find the narrow door, thus Christ would say I never knew you. This is supposed to not made sense. It makes perfect sense.

3) Next they claim Christ may not be found, the door to salvation has been closed to the fields white for harvest. Again, an absurd claim to hide the fact some lost people do seek God.

4) Finally the argument is remade that if you did not find, you did not seek. The exact opposite of what scripture teaches in verse after verse.

Is the "narrow door" the true God. The claim is that Christ is not the narrow door or the narrow door is not the true God. As Baptists we believe Christ is God the Son. The verse does not say the many seeking the narrow door begged God, it says they did not find Him. Jesus tells the lost to strive to enter through the narrow door, which of course requires seeking God through faith like Abraham's.

Luke 13:24 has not been addressed, it has been rewritten to avoid the fact the lost have the limited spiritual ability to seek God.

Van said:

Can you believe this line of reasoning? They say no lost person ever seeks after God. Scripture says lost people seek the narrow door.. So the conclusion is the lost do not have the limited spiritual ability to seek God.

Bottom line, Calvinists must offer absurdity, or against the person or subject change posts to hide their total fiction doctrines.

Click to expand...

Notice here the old "against the person dodge." I had to smile at this one!!

Many, many lost people seek after God, but they do not find Him because they seek Him in the wrong way. Foe example:
1. They search in the wrong direction (e.g. Romans 10:3).
2. They do not search with all their heart (Deut. 4:29)
3. They cease to search (Matt. 7:7-8. Note the present continuous tense ).
People will only find the narrow door if and when God opens their hearts to do so.

Van said:

Next since the people do not find the narrow door

Click to expand...

That is NOT what the Scripture says happened ...

"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The BIBLE says people were not able to ENTER, not that they searched and could not find. Scripture says they COULD NOT ENTER because the door WAS ALREADY CLOSED, see: "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door,".

Clearly the claim that they were searching but did not find is false.

Van said:

4) Finally the argument is remade that if you did not find, you did not seek. The exact opposite of what scripture teaches in verse after verse.

Click to expand...

Not THIS verse ...

Luke 11:9-13 [ESV]
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Are some NOT God's children?

Van said:

Luke 13:24 has not been addressed, it has been rewritten to avoid the fact the lost have the limited spiritual ability to seek God.

Click to expand...

... and the addressing of Luke 13:24 has been ignored and refuted with a simple "taint so".

Now that IS a surprise!

Van said:

the lost have the limited spiritual ability to seek God

Click to expand...

Being "spiritually dead" does not result in total spiritual INABILITY. That man-made tradition is not scriptural.

"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Atpollard did well to show Luke 13:24 IN CONTEXT. Yet it says MANY, I will say to you will seek to enter & will not be able to enter because the door was shut. But that meant that SOME who did seek to enter along with the many, were able to go in before the door was shut.

Luke 18:35-43 And it came to pass, that as He was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging: & hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant. And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by. And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me. And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me. And Jesus stood & commanded him to be brought unto Him & when he was come near, He asked him, saying, What WILT THOU that I shall do UNTO THEE? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight. And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: THY FAITH HAS SAVED THEE. And immediately he received his sight & FOLLOWED HIM, glorifying God & all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.

Luke 7:40-50 Then He turned to the woman & said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears & wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.” Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” Then He said to the woman, “YOUR FAITH has saved you. Go in peace.”

Rom 10:6-12 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that IF YOU CONFESS with your mouth the Lord Jesus & BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness & with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew & Greek, for the same Lord OVER ALL is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Acts 17:26-32 He made from one man EVERY NATION of mankind to live on ALL THE FACE OF THE EARTH, having determined their appointed times & the boundaries of their habitation, SO THAT THEY WOULD SEEK GOD, IF PERHAPS they might FEEL AROUND FOR HIM & FIND HIM, though He is not far from EACH ONE OF US...“God overlooked people’s ignorance about these things in earlier times, but NOW HE COMMANDS EVERYONE EVERYWHERE to repent of their sins & turn to Him.

Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him WHILE HE IS NEAR. Let the wicked man FORSAKE HIS WAY & the UNRIGHTEOUS MAN HIS THOUGHTS; LET HIM RETURN to the LORD, so that He may have compassion & to our God, for He will freely pardon.

Jesus repeatedly told people that it was THEIR faith that was the means of their being saved or healed by Him. God saves us by His unmerited grace but He doesn't believe FOR us, we are the ones who believe. He may grant us repentance leading to the acknowledging of the truth, but we are the ones acknowledging the truth; otherwise we are simply a robot, without a choice. Again, we believe with our heart & we confess with our mouth & so are justified & saved. God does not do the believing for us nor does He confess for us.

Phil 2:12,13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, (you) work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who works in you both to will & to do for His good pleasure.

1 Tim 6:12 (YOU) fight the good fight of the faith. (YOU) take hold of the eternal life to which you were called WHEN YOU MADE THE GOOD CONFESSION before many witnesses.

Again, we believe with our heart & we confess with our mouth & so are justified & saved. God does not do the believing for us nor does He confess for us. But He is the one who saves us by His grace--& His kindness & patience leads us to repenting from a godly sorrow, a sorrow according to the will of God & then we are able to have the knowledge of the truth & are able to acknowlege that truth & be saved.

'Freely have we received, freely give!'