Limited free Will.

[Charlie24]

Calvinism's defense relies on name calling because it is false doctrine. See post 17.

You are confused, Van! When you learn to accept God's Word for what it says, you will come out of that trance you live in to the light.

You are totally irrational!

John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Man is totally depraved without any ability to come to Christ until He is drawn, called by the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Gospel.

The sooner you accept this, the sooner you will be taken seriously on these boards.

 

[Van]

You are confused, Van! When you learn to accept God's Word for what it says, you will come out of that trance you live in to the light.

You are totally irrational!

John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Man is totally depraved without any ability to come to Christ until He is drawn, called by the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Gospel.

The sooner you accept this, the sooner you will be taken seriously on these boards.

More irrational argumentation, featuring "you, you, you" against the person blather. Folks, this is all Calvinism has to offer. No actual support from scripture.

Did anyone say the lost can "come to Christ" without being drawn? Nope. On and on, Calvinism is defended with false claims, misdirection and against the person argumentation. Read post 17.

 

[Van]

Fallen, unregenerate, natural people, made sinners at conception, have the limited spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk, but not spiritual solid food. We know that many of these people seek the narrow door but do not find it. Luke 13:24. And we know that Paul spoke to these "men of flesh" using spiritual milk, rather than spiritual solid food. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Both Calvinists and Arminians deny this Biblical doctrine, and advocate the false doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability." The Calvinists then overcome this claimed inability using the fiction of "irresistible grace." Likewise, the Arminians overcome this claimed inability using the fiction of "prevenient grace."

A review of scripture results in finding many verses that teach that the lost do at times seek God and His promises such as the rich young ruler seeking eternal life.

The false doctrine arises from reading into scripture more than what is said. For example, none seek after God. This does not say none ever seek after God, but that is how those advocating the false doctrine interpret the verse (Romans 3:11). Another expansion to support false doctrine is found at 1 Corinthians 2:14 which says that natural people (non-indwelt, lost people) are unable to understand "the things of the Spirit of God." This does not say natural people cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God, but that is how those advocating the false doctrine interpret the verse.

 

[Charlie24]

Fallen, unregenerate, natural people, made sinners at conception, have the limited spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk, but not spiritual solid food. We know that many of these people seek the narrow door but do not find it. Luke 13:24. And we know that Paul spoke to these "men of flesh" using spiritual milk, rather than spiritual solid food. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Both Calvinists and Arminians deny this Biblical doctrine, and advocate the false doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability." The Calvinists then overcome this claimed inability using the fiction of "irresistible grace." Likewise, the Arminians overcome this claimed inability using the fiction of "prevenient grace."

A review of scripture results in finding many verses that teach that the lost do at times seek God and His promises such as the rich young ruler seeking eternal life.

The false doctrine arises from reading into scripture more than what is said. For example, none seek after God. This does not say none ever seek after God, but that is how those advocating the false doctrine interpret the verse (Romans 3:11). Another expansion to support false doctrine is found at 1 Corinthians 2:14 which says that natural people (non-indwelt, lost people) are unable to understand "the things of the Spirit of God." This does not say natural people cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God, but that is how those advocating the false doctrine interpret the verse.

I am so sick of this, Van, I will not tolerate a denier of the Scripture for one iota of a minute.

Spiritual milk is what one feeds on when first coming to Christ and then over time graduates to solid food.

But O vain man, why can't you see that the natural man (the unsaved man) is dead to spiritual things and is totally depraved?

 

[atpollard]

Calvinism says the lost do not seek God

Just a small technicality, but it was the Apostle Paul that made that Claim. Reformed Christians just believed him and included it in out notes of "The Bible says THIS".

Romans 3:10-12 [ESV]
10 as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside;
together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one."

John says:

John 3:19-20 [ESV]
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things* hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
[which is pretty close since it is hard to SEEK what you HATE and will not come to.]

* In case there was any doubt about who "does wicked things":

Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV]
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[Van]

I am so sick of this, Van, I will not tolerate a denier of the Scripture for one iota of a minute.

Spiritual milk is what one feeds on when first coming to Christ and then over time graduates to solid food.

But O vain man, why can't you see that the natural man (the unsaved man) is dead to spiritual things and is totally depraved?

On and on with the fallacious argumentation ploy of name calling. Denier of Scripture = Calvinist interpretation of Luke 13:24.

Does the fact "spiritual milk" is what new Christians feed on, negate the fact spiritual milk is what the lost are drawn to Christ with? Nope

Did anyone deny natural people are unable to understand some of the spiritual things, spiritual solid food, 1 Cor. 3:1-3? Nope

Yes, Scripture teaches the lost have limited spiritual ability, so scripture teaches total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

Folks, it boils down to this, Calvinism is false doctrine. Luke 13:24 says the lost, many of them, seek the narrow door. Calvinism claims they cannot.

They falsely claim "the things" equals "all the things" and "none seek after God" equals "none ever seek after God," and sinner do not come to the Light equals sinners never come to the light, seeking salvation. Again, they deny Luke 13:24. They deny that the rich young ruler was seeking eternal life.
They deny Romans 9:16 teaches that some of the lost will to be saved, and others do works seeking salvation. If you pile up all the verses teaching some of the lost comprise the fields white for harvest, you will have quite the Calvinist bonfire of denied verses.

 

[Van]

Folks, note how Luke 13:24 is not addressed, other than claiming it means the opposite of what it says. But other verses, usually non-germane, are cited non-stop. Not one defender of Calvinism says, "yes, Luke 13:24 indicates many lost seek after God. Not one.

Luke 13:24 NASB
“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Luke 13:24 ESV
“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Luke 13:24 NKJV
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

 

[Charlie24]

On and on with the fallacious argumentation ploy of name calling. Denier of Scripture = Calvinist interpretation of Luke 13:24.

Does the fact "spiritual milk" is what new Christians feed on, negate the fact spiritual milk is what the lost are drawn to Christ with? Nope

Did anyone deny natural people are unable to understand some of the spiritual things, spiritual solid food, 1 Cor. 3:1-3? Nope

Yes, Scripture teaches the lost have limited spiritual ability, so scripture teaches total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

Folks, it boils down to this, Calvinism is false doctrine. Luke 13:24 says the lost, many of them, seek the narrow door. Calvinism claims they cannot.

They falsely claim "the things" equals "all the things" and "none seek after God" equals "none ever seek after God," and sinner do not come to the Light equals sinners never come to the light, seeking salvation. Again, they deny Luke 13:24. They deny that the rich young ruler was seeking eternal life.
They deny Romans 9:16 teaches that some of the lost will to be saved, and others do works seeking salvation. If you pile up all the verses teaching some of the lost comprise the fields white for harvest, you will have quite the Calvinist bonfire of denied verses.

Van, the rich young ruler was spiritually dead, totally depraved to the fact of his needing a Savior.

That's is what the Holy Spirit cuts into the heart, soul, and spirit of man at the hearing of the Gospel.

It's impossible for man to realize this without the Holy Spirit's conviction.

 

[Van]

Van, the rich young ruler was spiritually dead, totally depraved to the fact of his needing a Savior.

That's is what the Holy Spirit cuts into the heart, soul, and spirit of man at the hearing of the Gospel.

It's impossible for man to realize this without the Holy Spirit's conviction.

Did anyone say the rich young ruler was not spiritually dead? Nope.

What does "totally depraved to the fact" mean. Answer: Nonsense, i.e. Calvinist mumbo jumbo.

Can the lost seek God, the narrow door, even while still spiritually dead? Luke 13:24 teaches that many of the lost, spiritually dead sinner will seek the narrow door but will not find it. That means their "heart" had not be "cut into" with "Irresistible Enabling Grace." But they were among those who willed or worked to be saved. They were among those comprising the fields white for harvest.

 

[Charlie24]

Did anyone say the rich young ruler was not spiritually dead? Nope.

What does "totally depraved to the fact" mean. Answer: Nonsense, i.e. Calvinist mumbo jumbo.

Can the lost seek God, the narrow door, even while still spiritually dead? Luke 13:24 teaches that many of the lost, spiritually dead sinner will seek the narrow door but will not find it. That means their "heart" had not be "cut into" with "Irresistible Enabling Grace." But they were among those who willed or worked to be saved. They were among those comprising the fields white for harvest.

The rich young ruler was searching for God on his own terms, that is not the criteria in which Isaiah and Paul were stating, "no one calls on God."

The criteria is "no one understands." The rich young ruler was making a futile attempt in searching for God being spiritually dead and totally depraved from the Truth, through sin.

 

[atpollard]

Folks, note how Luke 13:24 is not addressed, other than claiming it means the opposite of what it says. But other verses, usually non-germane, are cited non-stop. Not one defender of Calvinism says, "yes, Luke 13:24 indicates many lost seek after God. Not one.

Luke 13:24 NASB
“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Luke 13:24 ESV
“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Luke 13:24 NKJV
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

What the heck dude, did you actually read the paragraph that you plucked that verse from?

Luke 13:22-30 [NKJV]
And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' "then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' "But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. "They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. "And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."

THESE are the people you are claiming seek God?
The people that GOD HIMSELF announces "I do not know you" and "Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity."
Why does God say this? ... because they came knocking "once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door". These people are seeking God when they stand before God at JUDGEMENT, not "while he may be found". [Isaiah 55:6]

How does THAT prove natural ability when God directly says "I never knew you"?

The two options are:

1. They did not seek the true God in life (like Romans 1 - "although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image" - and Romans 3 - "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." -talk about).

2. Supralapsarianism and Hard Determinism ... they begged God to accept them as they honestly seek him in life and it was GOD that refused to allow them to be saved.

Which of those is the BIBLICAL option?

Folks, notice that Luke 13:24 has been addressed.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Note Luke 13:24 teaches many of those "dead in trespasses and sins" seek the narrow door, so the claim being "spiritually dead" results in total spiritual inability is total fiction.

Luke 13:24. "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
So the many, seeking to enter, are not able to do so. So the claim being "spiritually dead" results in "limited spiritual ability" is total fiction.

 

[Van]

Luke 13:24. "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
So the many, seeking to enter, are not able to do so. So the claim being "spiritually dead" results in "limited spiritual ability" is total fiction.

Can you believe this line of reasoning? They say no lost person ever seeks after God. Scripture says lost people seek the narrow door.. So the conclusion is the lost do not have the limited spiritual ability to seek God.

Bottom line, Calvinists must offer absurdity, or against the person or subject change posts to hide their total fiction doctrines.

 

[Van]

What the heck dude, did you actually read the paragraph that you plucked that verse from?

Luke 13:22-30 [NKJV]
And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' "then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' "But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. "They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. "And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."

THESE are the people you are claiming seek God?
The people that GOD HIMSELF announces "I do not know you" and "Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity."
Why does God say this? ... because they came knocking "once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door". These people are seeking God when they stand before God at JUDGEMENT, not "while he may be found". [Isaiah 55:6]

How does THAT prove natural ability when God directly says "I never knew you"?

The two options are:

1. They did not seek the true God in life (like Romans 1 - "although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image" - and Romans 3 - "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." -talk about).

2. Supralapsarianism and Hard Determinism ... they begged God to accept them as they honestly seek him in life and it was GOD that refused to allow them to be saved.

Which of those is the BIBLICAL option?

Folks, notice that Luke 13:24 has been addressed.

I had to smile at this one!!

1) I am addressed with the implication I do not know what I am talking about. So yet another fallacy, the old against the person dodge.

2) Next since the people do not find the narrow door, thus Christ would say I never knew you. This is supposed to not made sense. It makes perfect sense.

3) Next they claim Christ may not be found, the door to salvation has been closed to the fields white for harvest. Again, an absurd claim to hide the fact some lost people do seek God.

4) Finally the argument is remade that if you did not find, you did not seek. The exact opposite of what scripture teaches in verse after verse.

Is the "narrow door" the true God. The claim is that Christ is not the narrow door or the narrow door is not the true God. As Baptists we believe Christ is God the Son. The verse does not say the many seeking the narrow door begged God, it says they did not find Him. Jesus tells the lost to strive to enter through the narrow door, which of course requires seeking God through faith like Abraham's.

Luke 13:24 has not been addressed, it has been rewritten to avoid the fact the lost have the limited spiritual ability to seek God.