Authentic Interpretation

Ekklesian said:

But the noncalvinist cannot escape the conclusion that the only reason he chose Christ when another man didn't is because he is by some degree better than the other man.

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This old chestnut has been posted and refuted dozens of time on this board. Yet here it is again, dredged up from an outdated "copy and paste" library.

A person who has recognizes he or she is a wretched sinner, does not think they are better, but rather they think they are worse. Recall Paul seeing himself as the foremost sinner.

Calvinism invented a reason for why some reject the gospel and others accept it. But the view is utterly unbiblical, and pure fiction.

Matthew 13 presents an overview of why some reject, and others either do not fully embrace, as well as those that embrace fully.

As a primer, some have hardened hearts, such that they are no longer able to understand the gospel. Some are blinded because they accepted some false doctrine as truth, which then blinds them to truth. (Matthew 23:13)

But consider Matthew 13:23. the soil (kind of person) who hears and understands the gospel the gospel and subsequently bears fruit. And we know that only those in whom Christ abides bear fruit. So how did those people, soil number 4 people, become indwelt? God choose to transfer them into Christ, where they underwent the washing of regeneration, being made alive together with Christ, and then having been made firm in Christ they were sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

The missing linkage, going from understanding to fully embracing the gospel such that God credits the belief as righteousness, can be inferred from those not chosen. Believers must have a root within themselves, so that when they commit to Christ, they will strive to keep that commitment even in the face of adversity. And Christ must be the overriding priority of their life, such that if anything, any treasure, comes between them and Christ, they discard the treasure because they love Christ with all the mind, heart and sole.

Charlie24 said:

I'm sure it has no meaning to you, Van.

Rom. 10:13

"For whosever will call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

I suppose this has no meaning either!

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I provided the meaning which you did not address, but brought up yet another verse but left out that it is God alone who determines who "calls" upon the name of the Lord.

Folks, they only repeat refuted arguments but never acknowledge the refutation.

Van said:

I provided the meaning which you did not address, but brought up yet another verse but left out that it is God alone who determines who "calls" upon the name of the Lord.

Folks, they only repeat refuted arguments but never acknowledge the refutation.

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God determines who will call on His name?

Heb. 3:15

"While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

It appears that God is doing the calling and asking for man not to harden his heart against Him.

Man can't call on God until God calls on him!

Van said:

I am sorry Sir, but the phrase "whosover will" has no meaning. Those that believe in a manner credited by God as righteousness constitute those constituting "whosoever will."

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So you think the Holy Spirit put words into the text for no reason?

You have missed the meaning of the text.

The oneG3588 wanting,G2309 let takeG2983 waterG5204 of lifeG2222 without charge!G1431 ABP+

the one who desires the water of life drink freely. BSB

let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. NASB

let the one who wants it take the water of life free of charge. NET+

Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV

Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life. NLT

Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift. NRSV

let the one who wishes, take the water of life freely. UASV+

Does this help you understand the text Van?

Van said:

I provided the meaning which you did not address, but brought up yet another verse but left out that it is God alone who determines who "calls" upon the name of the Lord.

Folks, they only repeat refuted arguments but never acknowledge the refutation.

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So now you are holding to the C/R view of salvation. It looks like you have drank the calvinist kool aid.

Jesus said, “Now, John, before you close the Book put in this, “And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" But there will be some that are deaf, and they cannot hear, so add, ‘And let him who thirsts come’; but put it still broader John, Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” The Book was sealed, as it were, with that.
It is the last invitation in the Bible “Whosoever will”. And He meant it or He would not have closed His canon with it. [Rev 22:17 NKJV] Riley

Van said:

The goal of bible study is to arrive at our most accurate understanding of a verse or passage, rather than simply accepting the views of others which differ and thus one or more are wrong. Consider Acts 13:48.

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I want to suggest that we shouldn't be aiming to arrive at "our most accurate understanding of a verse or passage," but at "the most accurate understanding" of them. For me, the difference is that "our" sounds very subjective - what I think, basically - the final arbiter of my accuracy of understanding being my own thinking and preference (however bad it might be); but "the" indicates conformity to objective (that is, existing independent of me), generally accepted principles and rules of interpretation, reasoning and logic. We ought all of us to be gauging our interpretation of God's word on this second, objective basis rather than on the basis of our own peculiar, subjective, interpretive preference. Without an objective standard of reasoning and an objective method of interpretation to which we all subscribe, our interpretations amount to nothing more than opinion.

Acts 13:44-48
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I have placed you as a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the end of the earth.'"
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

One of the most important rules of Bible interpretation is: "Context is king." If you want to be as sure as possible to properly understand a verse or passage, you must understand them first of all within their immediate context. Someone has stated this rule this way: "Never read a Bible verse," by which they mean "a verse removed from its context becomes a pretext for a proof-text." In other words, interpreting a verse apart from its immediate context is certain to produce error in interpretation.

Van said:

The fly in the buttermilk is the vague phrase "...all who had been appointed to eternal life believed."

The widely held bogus view is that this refers to "predestination" with God unilaterally choosing and thus appointing some to eternal life before creation. But none of that can be explicitly found in the text.

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Does Luke write that Paul and Barnabas declared to the jealous Jews that God had appointed them to their jealousy, making them incapable of any other reaction to what Paul and Barnabas had preached? No. Paul and Barnabas placed the responsibility for the reaction of the Jews squarely upon the Jews (vs. 46), not God. So, then, when I read "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed," I don't automatically think in the Calvinist way that meticulous divine ordination is meant. Instead, I understand that all who, by humbling themselves and choosing to trust in Christ are in him, are "appointed" to the salvation and eternal life that he is.

Van said:

Who does the appointing? Does the verse say it is God? Nope

How is the appointing accomplished. Someone provides the direction (i.e. you must trust fully in Christ) and then those receiving (passively) the direction act (actively) to take and accept that direction. Thus they chose to believe.

So the first issue for study is the verb "appointed."

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of horizō (G3724) which means "set or determine?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of proorizō (G4309) which means "predetermine?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of prographo (G4270) which means to set forth beforehand?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of kataskeuazō (G2680) which means "to make ready?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of tithēmi (G5087) which means "to unilaterally appoint?" Nope

The verb is "tasso" which refers to an arrangement by mutual agreement. Thus the authentic interpretation of Acts 13:48 is Paul gave direction to eternal life (He presented the gospel) and some of the Gentiles took his direction and believed.

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My lexicons render tasso as "arranged in an orderly manner" not "an arrangement by mutual agreement."

Acts 13:50-51
50 But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.

Why should Paul and Barnabas protest, shaking off the dust of their feet against the antagonistic actions of the jealous Jews, if they believed God had ordained that antagonism? Would they not, then, be protesting the will of God? It seems so to me... Luke didn't write that God had ordained all that is described in the above two verses, either. And so, a natural, straightforward reading of the event recounted by Luke in verses 44-51, uncolored by Calvinist thinking, doesn't appear to me to produce a predestinatory meaning in verse 48 at all.

Charlie24 said:

Yes, I can see why you're singing the praises of divine love and joy unspeakable, seeing that you count yourself as one of the Elect!

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He first loved me. The Bible tells me so.

Charlie24 said:

But what about that guy in Hell, is he singing praises? How will God explain why he isn't one of the Elect as you?

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The guy in Hell is there because of his sins. I wouldn't say he's singing. I'd say he's bowing the knee and confessing the righteousness of the King in His judgment, right along with Sodom, who wasn't sent a prophet or a preacher. And Christ, knowing all things, professed that Sodom would have repented, if the works He did in Judea were done there. But He didn't do them there, did He?

Charlie24 said:

But wait, God doesn't have to explain anything, does He?

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No, but He does explain in this case.

Charlie24 said:

You must be special for God to show you such favor!

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Not in the least, but I am thankful.

Charlie24 said:

That's not the God I serve, I can assure you of that!

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Let's hope that changes soon.

Aaron said:

He first loved me. The Bible tells me so.


The guy in Hell is there because of his sins. I wouldn't say he's singing. I'd say he's bowing the knee and confessing the righteousness of the King in His judgment, right along with Sodom, who wasn't sent a prophet or a preacher. And Christ, knowing all things, professed that Sodom would have repented, if the works He did in Judea were done there. But He didn't do them there, did He?


No, but He does explain in this case.


Not in the least, but I am thankful.


Let's hope that changes soon.

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I agree, Aaron! He did love us first and the Bible does tell us so.

The guy in Hell is there because he rejected, for whatever reason, God's way for him to escape. Through faith in the finished work of Christ.

He sent himself there, even though God's law demanded he do so.

Aaron said:

He first loved me. The Bible tells me so.


The guy in Hell is there because of his sins. I wouldn't say he's singing. I'd say he's bowing the knee and confessing the righteousness of the King in His judgment, right along with Sodom, who wasn't sent a prophet or a preacher. And Christ, knowing all things, professed that Sodom would have repented, if the works He did in Judea were done there. But He didn't do them there, did He?


No, but He does explain in this case.


Not in the least, but I am thankful.


Let's hope that changes soon.

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They are cursing the name of God because that’s what haters of God do

Charlie24 said:

God determines who will call on His name?

Heb. 3:15

"While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

It appears that God is doing the calling and asking for man not to harden his heart against Him.

Man can't call on God until God calls on him!

Click to expand...

You do not seem to be trying to respond to my post. The person calls, but the determination that it is a call that results in salvation is God.

No verse says God must "call" on a person before he or she can attempt to call on God. Stop with unsupportable fiction.

Van said:

You do not seem to be trying to respond to my post. The person calls, but the determination that it is a call that results in salvation is God.

No verse says God must "call" on a person before he or she can attempt to call on God. Stop with unsupportable fiction.

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The Scripture says it a different way but it's the same thing.

No man chooses Christ, Christ chooses them first in order for man to call on Him.

You call this predestination, I have another name for it.

John 15:16

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Silverhair said:

So you think the Holy Spirit put words into the text for no reason?

You have missed the meaning of the text.

The oneG3588 wanting,G2309 let takeG2983 waterG5204 of lifeG2222 without charge!G1431 ABP+

the one who desires the water of life drink freely. BSB

let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. NASB

let the one who wants it take the water of life free of charge. NET+

Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV

Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life. NLT

Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift. NRSV

let the one who wishes, take the water of life freely. UASV+

Does this help you understand the text Van?

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I did not see you define the phrase whoever will. Instead you charged with with claiming the Holy Spirit put the phrase in for no reason.

You seem not to understand. The issue is not that a person wills to be saved, or works to be saved, the issue is God decides whom to save.

Charlie24 said:

The Scripture says it a different way but it's the same thing.

No man chooses Christ, Christ chooses them first in order for man to call on Him.

You call this predestination, I have another name for it.

John 15:16

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may giv

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Here's how it works, Van.

Rom. 10:14

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Totally depraved man cannot call on God. God calls on us through the preaching of the Gospel.

Then when man's heart is pierced with the truth of the Gospel, he responds to God by calling on him.

Tenchi said:

I want to suggest that we shouldn't be aiming to arrive at "our most accurate understanding of a verse or passage," but at "the most accurate understanding" of them. For me, the difference is that "our" sounds very subjective - what I think, basically - the final arbiter of my accuracy of understanding being my own thinking and preference (however bad it might be); but "the" indicates conformity to objective (that is, existing independent of me), generally accepted principles and rules of interpretation, reasoning and logic. We ought all of us to be gauging our interpretation of God's word on this second, objective basis rather than on the basis of our own peculiar, subjective, interpretive preference. Without an objective standard of reasoning and an objective method of interpretation to which we all subscribe, our interpretations amount to nothing more than opinion.

Acts 13:44-48
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I have placed you as a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the end of the earth.'"
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

One of the most important rules of Bible interpretation is: "Context is king." If you want to be as sure as possible to properly understand a verse or passage, you must understand them first of all within their immediate context. Someone has stated this rule this way: "Never read a Bible verse," by which they mean "a verse removed from its context becomes a pretext for a proof-text." In other words, interpreting a verse apart from its immediate context is certain to produce error in interpretation.



Does Luke write that Paul and Barnabas declared to the jealous Jews that God had appointed them to their jealousy, making them incapable of any other reaction to what Paul and Barnabas had preached? No. Paul and Barnabas placed the responsibility for the reaction of the Jews squarely upon the Jews (vs. 46), not God. So, then, when I read "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed," I don't automatically think in the Calvinist way that meticulous divine ordination is meant. Instead, I understand that all who, by humbling themselves and choosing to trust in Christ are in him, are "appointed" to the salvation and eternal life that he is.




My lexicons render tasso as "arranged in an orderly manner" not "an arrangement by mutual agreement."

Acts 13:50-51
50 But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.

Why should Paul and Barnabas protest, shaking off the dust of their feet against the antagonistic actions of the jealous Jews, if they believed God had ordained that antagonism? Would they not, then, be protesting the will of God? It seems so to me... Luke didn't write that God had ordained all that is described in the above two verses, either. And so, a natural, straightforward reading of the event recounted by Luke in verses 44-51, uncolored by Calvinist thinking, doesn't appear to me to produce a predestinatory meaning in verse 48 at all.

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1) Any interpretation that we arrive at through our study is our interpretation.

2) No one said or suggested our interpretation should be subjective rather than as objective as we can manage.

3) The authentic interpretation is based on the context.

4) Strong's indicates one of the meanings is "; to appoint mutually, i. e. agree upon:"

5) Thus the authentic interpretation of Acts 13:48 is Paul gave direction to eternal life (He presented the gospel) and some of the Gentiles took his direction and believed.

Charlie24 said:

Here's how it works, Van.

Rom. 10:14

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Totally depraved man cannot call on God. God calls on us through the preaching of the Gospel.

Then when man's heart is pierced with the truth of the Gospel, he responds to God by calling on him.

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You are wasting posts avoiding rebuttal. I already showed totally depraved people seek the narrow door but do not find it.

Your doctrine is bogus, and it seems to have blinded you so you cannot address clear statements of scripture. For example, why does God credit the faith of some, but not all? You have no answer. If a person only responds when "his or her heart is pierced" the faith would always be God gifted. It is nonsense.

Charlie24 said:

The Scripture says it a different way but it's the same thing.

No man chooses Christ, Christ chooses them first in order for man to call on Him.

You call this predestination, I have another name for it.

John 15:16

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

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You just keep changing the subject.

You continue to claim no one wills to be saved. Romans 9:16

God's choice of an individual for salvation is "through faith in the truth." 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

For those who study scripture. Study the eight places "tasso" appears in the NT and note that in every case an arrangement is established by mutual agreement.

Van said:

You are wasting posts avoiding rebuttal. I already showed totally depraved people seek the narrow door but do not find it.

Your doctrine is bogus, and it seems to have blinded you so you cannot address clear statements of scripture. For example, why does God credit the faith of some, but not all? You have no answer. If a person only responds when "his or her heart is pierced" the faith would always be God gifted. It is nonsense.

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Nothing but hot air because you don't know what you're talking about!

And you keep on and on proving it!

Van said:

I did not see you define the phrase whoever will. Instead you charged with with claiming the Holy Spirit put the phrase in for no reason.

You seem not to understand. The issue is not that a person wills to be saved, or works to be saved, the issue is God decides whom to save.

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God has said that He will save those that trust in His risen son. Is that what you are trying to say or have you fallen into the calvinist mindset of divine determination?

Your post are getting more and more confusing as time goes on.