Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I agree with what I posted., so does what you posted agree with me ? Thats your answer duh
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Acts 13:48 and Election
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Finding an excuse to reject the plain scripture. God made some for everlasting destruction, period, and its for Himself Prov 16:4It seems best to let a scholar answer your question
(Rom. 9:22-23) Does God create people only to damn them?
CLAIM: The text seems to imply that God created some people only to allow them to burn in hell.
RESPONSE: In response to this interpretation, a number of points can be made.
{Rom 9:22}
What if G1487 G1161 God G2316, wanting G2309 (G5723) to show G1731 (G5670) His wrath G3709 and G2532 to make G1107 (00) His G846 power G1415 known G1107 (G5658), endured G5342 (G5656) with G1722 much G4183 longsuffering G3115 the vessels G4632 of wrath G3709 prepared G2675 (G5772) for G1519 destruction G684,
{Rom 9:23}
and G2532 that G2443 He might make known G1107 (G5661) the riches G4149 of His G846 glory G1391 on G1909 the vessels G4632 of mercy G1656, which G3739 He had prepared beforehand G4282 (G5656) for G1519 glory G1391, NKJV
First, Paul uses different words for “prepared” in verses 22 and 23. The Greek words are katartizo G2675 vs 22 and proetoimazo G4282 vs 23. These two Greek words are both translated as “prepared” in the NASB, & NKJV but in the Greek, they aren’t even in the same word family. The New Living Translation shows the difference between the two (see also the KJV).
Second, there is no subject that “fits” the unbelievers for destruction, but God is the subject who “prepares” believers. There is a subtle difference between verses 22 and 23. God is not the subject of the sentence in verse 22, but he is the subject of the sentence in verse 23. In other words, God does not fit or prepare the unbeliever to hell; they “fit” themselves.(verse 22) How? By rejecting the Savior. On the other hand, God is the one who prepares believers. (verse 23)
Third, these vessels of wrath might turn and become vessels of mercy. There is no fatalism in Romans 9. Paul has been warning them from the beginning of his letter to turn to God and become vessels of mercy (Rom_2:4). However, he writes, “But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God” (Rom_2:5). Paul is explaining that these vessels of wrath are able to become objects of his mercy, if they merely turn to him in faith. In the next chapter, Paul writes that God invited the people “all day long,” but “they were disobedient and rebellious” NLT (Rom_10:21).
Fourth, the clay and the potter illustration comes from the OT, which refers to God’s sovereignty over the nations. Jeremiah writes, “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it… (Jer_18:6-7) or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it” (Jer_18:9). Here, God tells the Jews not to be surprised if he decides to use one nation or another, because he is the Maker and they are the clay. Isaiah writes, “Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker –An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’ Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?” (Isa_45:9) In this section of Isaiah, the Jews are surprised to hear God call Cyrus (a bloodthirsty, Pagan king) his anointed one (Isa_44:28 - Isa_45:1)! God tells his people that he can choose to work through whomever he wants –even a Gentile. This is the purpose of the illustration.
James RochfordDoes God create people only to damn them?
evidenceunseen.com
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Job says, all their days, they are being reserved for wrath Job 21:30
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Do you think it's a surprise to God who they are that's reserved to the day of destruction?
But yet the Scripture says that He is long-suffering toward them, not willing that any should perish but that all would come to the knowledge of truth.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Why would it be a surprise to God when He is the one who created the wicked for their destruction, DUH
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I am rejecting your understanding of the word of God BF.
There is avast difference between what you think and what God says.
Let’s bring civility back into the conversation.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
There you go miss reading a post again, I do not agree with what you post as it is not biblical.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Note the wicked are reserved for judgement.
God does not make man wicked as that would go against His nature and character. So logically you have once again misunderstood His word.
You Calvinists!!!!
God didn't fit them for destruction, they fitted themselves for destruction.
The Calvinist God can elect some to heaven and some to Hell and that's just fine with God. Pure sickening!
They have rejected Christ and they are by God's law reserved for punishment and destruction.
But that is not God's will for them.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Calvinst's are very confused when it comes to the bible.
God determines all things but is not responsible the sin and evil He has determined. And the contradictions just continue to go on and on.
The Calvinist God in an uncaring, heartless condemner of humanity.
But it's ok with them as long as they are among the elect.
This is the God I serve!
Here God is speaking of those who die spiritually, separated from Him for eternity in the Lake of Fire, and what does He say?
Ezek. 18:23
"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
To me you rejecting the word I present to you, so why do you ask people to show you scripture, to only say, I reject your understanding of it. You aught already know, your opponents understanding of scripture is different from yours, correct ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
If you dont agree with what scripture i posted, obviously i dont agree with you, isnt that kinda logical ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Note, the wicked their Judgment is wrath, didnt you read what I posted. See those for whom Christ died, are not appointed to wrath, Job 21
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Rev 11 18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Charlie24
Both are True, because God fits them for destruction, they have no choice but to fit themselves for destruction in agreement with Gods will for them. The word fitted[katartizō] in the original is both passive and middle, but God is the first cause because He created them for destruction. Since fitted is also in the perfect tense, its a completed action in the past with results up into the very present
Both are True, because God fits them for destruction, they have no choice but to fit themselves for destruction in agreement with Gods will for them. The word fitted[katartizō] in the original is both passive and middle, but God is the first cause because He created them for destruction. Since fitted is also in the perfect tense, its a completed action in the past with results up into the very present
Is this the same God you're describing? Or is it a different God?
Isaiah 1:18-20
" Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Commentary on Rom 9:22
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
That passage doesnt do away with what I posted, can you prove that ?
In Rom. 9:22 that you posted, notice that God was long-suffering toward them.
They rejected Him and brought their own destruction, but yet, He is long-suffering, not willing for them to perish.
Some are prepared for glory and some for destruction according to God's foreknowledge.
The ones who were prepared for glory are the ones who accepted Him.