Confession for Baptist’s and Protestants in general

Walter said:

To Catholics, anything you may find used in worship in the New Testament, especially in the book of Revelation, is used in Catholic worship: vestments, lights, incense, chants, processions, and so on.

'Candles have the specific symbolism of shedding light, which is both practical and mystical in its meaning. The burning of costly beeswax is also a kind of small sacrifice, and the beautiful Easter proclamation sung over the Paschal candle at the Vigil of Easter expounds. Incense represents the sweet fragrance of prayer and of right teaching, and it also symbolizes purity of heart, since it cleanses the air of any foul odors.'

Those protestants and Baptists who use none of these things in their worship (many Lutherans and Anglicans do) tend to associate the style of worship depicted in the New and Old Testaments as pagan. This is a strange attitude, but one comes across it. Even here I just read that it's pagan. I remember a Baptist pastor's ’s wife who described the Catholic use of incense as “pagan". When I mentioned that it is used in the book of Revelation, she did not know what to say.

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True, but Revelation is an account of visions given to the apostle John by Jesus, not instructions on how local churches should worship. If we look in the epistles, which do include instructions for worship, there is nothing at all giving instructions about vestments, candles, chants, incense or processions. There are instructions about preaching, about singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, about offerings fro the Lord's work, about prayer, but not about those things you mentioned.

David Lamb said:

Jesus certainly is the Light of the world, and God's word is indeed a lamp to our feet and a light to our path, but we are not told to honour Jesus by lighting candles, or God's word by lighting lamps. Jesus also said, "I am the door," but we don't see that as a reason for shutting and opening doors as part of our worship.

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We do, we see it having very spiritual Scriptural significance.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, (then) I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me."

"And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

We have the Holy Door ceremony on the jubilee years, like the year of God’s favour in the Old Covenant. This year is a jubilee year, the door is open.

The Door signifies conversion and to make peace with God and neighbour.

Cathode said:

We do, we see it having very spiritual Scriptural significance.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, (then) I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me."

"And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

We have the Holy Door ceremony on the jubilee years, like the year of God’s favour in the Old Covenant. This year is a jubilee year, the door is open.

The Door signifies conversion and to make peace with God and neighbour.

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I agree with that, but my point was that just because something is used to signify/illustrate a spiritual truth, that doesn't mean that the original (whether a door, a candle, a vine, a shepherd, a lamb or whatever) is to be used in worship.

David Lamb said:

True, but Revelation is an account of visions given to the apostle John by Jesus, not instructions on how local churches should worship. If we look in the epistles, which do include instructions for worship, there is nothing at all giving instructions about vestments, candles, chants, incense or processions. There are instructions about preaching, about singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, about offerings fro the Lord's work, about prayer, but not about those things you mentioned.

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The problem is you forget that the Apostles were Jewish and Catholic Church is ancient.

The vestments for instance, the Alb is just a type of clothing that went out of fashion, but the Church simply retained because of its age, from an age when robes were the norm.

Candles used in prayer is retained as part of the Jewish heritage of the Apostles. Jews today still use candles in prayer and worship.

Chants, the psalms and hymns of the Jewish people were chanted still are.

“speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord” Eph 5:19

“Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.” Col 3:16

The Hebrew word for “Hymns” is chanting or in modern parlance, Canticles.

Protestantism, in rejecting Apostolic Tradition also rejected Apostolic Jewish traditions, it is wholly disconnected from the Jewish Apostolic roots.

Protestantism is a late European invented religious movement with no connection to the Jewish Apostles traditions. Nothing in Protestantism reflects the Jewish roots of Christianity, in fact it’s founder was a hate filled anti Semitic.

Catholics have a very organic connection to the Apostolic Jewish roots, as we do with the ancient customs of Christian worship.
It is home to us, but alien to you.

Cathode said:

The problem is you forget that the Apostles were Jewish and Catholic Church is ancient.

The vestments for instance, the Alb is just a type of clothing that went out of fashion, but the Church simply retained because of its age, from an age when robes were the norm.

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Exactly, the early church leaders wore what were then ordinary clothes; their clothing did not mark them out from the other church members.

Cathode said:

Candles used in prayer is retained as part of the Jewish heritage of the Apostles. Jews today still use candles in prayer and worship.

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Part of the Jewish heritage. There are all sorts of things that are part of Jewish heritage, which have no place in the Christian church.

Cathode said:

Chants, the psalms and hymns of the Jewish people were chanted still are.

“speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord” Eph 5:19

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Yes, Christians are indeed to use psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, but we are not told that we must chant them.

Cathode said:

“Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.” Col 3:16

The Hebrew word for “Hymns” is chanting or in modern parlance, Canticles.

Protestantism, in rejecting Apostolic Tradition also rejected Apostolic Jewish traditions, it is wholly disconnected from the Jewish Apostolic roots.

Protestantism is a late European invented religious movement with no connection to the Jewish Apostles traditions. Nothing in Protestantism reflects the Jewish roots of Christianity, in fact it’s founder was a hate filled anti Semitic.

Catholics have a very organic connection to the Apostolic Jewish roots, as we do with the ancient customs of Christian worship.
It is home to us, but alien to you.

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David Lamb said:

I agree with that, but my point was that just because something is used to signify/illustrate a spiritual truth, that doesn't mean that the original (whether a door, a candle, a vine, a shepherd, a lamb or whatever) is to be used in worship.

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There is a great difference between being a spectator and a participant.

We surround ourselves in our Faith by customs reflecting our love of Jesus, the stained glass of our cathedrals tell the gospel stories.

We bless ourselves in the Name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, making the sign of the Cross, on rising, at meals, at going and coming home. We are steeped in our faith by constant remembrance by custom.
There is no learning a language but by total immersion as there is no living a faith but by total immersion.

The worship of Heaven will not be alien to us, and not because we just read about it, but because we lived it, and worshipped this same way. All our senses and all our being is engaged in worship.

Our prayers rise with incense, our canticles ring out, our lamp stands shine out not hidden, our priests are in white robes, on our Altar is The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Cathode said:

There is a great difference between being a spectator and a participant.

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Yes, I agree with that. We are not called to watch other people worship. Worship is not a performance.

David Lamb said:

Exactly, the early church leaders wore what were then ordinary clothes; their clothing did not mark them out from the other church members.

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Yes, because the Early Christians were persecuted, first by the Jews, then by the Romans for 300 years. Being marked out was not a good idea.
Priests were hunted, killed and persecuted in England for 300 years, their clothing did mark them out either.

Part of the Jewish heritage. There are all sorts of things that are part of Jewish heritage, which have no place in the Christian church.

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That does not mean nothing of the Jewish heritage should be retained, like some final solution either.
The Jewish heritage was sanitised from Protestantism, it is European in custom and worship, not Apostolic or Jewish.

Yes, Christians are indeed to use psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, but we are not told that we must chant them.

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“Hymns” are “chant” in the Jewish tradition, when you read “ Hymns” in Ephesians and Colossians it is Chant or Canticles in our terms.
It’s right before your eyes.

David Lamb said:

Yes, I agree with that. We are not called to watch other people worship. Worship is not a performance.

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We are not called to simply read these things in Scripture, but live the faith out in worship.
Christianity is not just an intellectual exercise, we are meant to engage our whole being and senses, be immersed in it.

Cathode said:

Yes, because the Early Christians were persecuted, first by the Jews, then by the Romans for 300 years. Being marked out was not a good idea.
Priests were hunted, killed and persecuted in England for 300 years, their clothing did mark them out either.

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Yet there is absolutely nothing in the bible that suggests that the early church leaders would have dressed in special clothing that marked them out if it were not for persecution. Besides, it wasn't only the church leaders who were persecuted:

“Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.” (Ac 9:1-2 NKJV)

Church leaders who wear similar clothing to other church members today are not doing so to avoid persecution.

Cathode said:

That does not mean nothing of the Jewish heritage should be retained, like some final solution either.
The Jewish heritage was sanitised from Protestantism, it is European in custom and worship, not Apostolic or Jewish.



“Hymns” are “chant” in the Jewish tradition, when you read “ Hymns” in Ephesians and Colossians it is Chant or Canticles in our terms.
It’s right before your eyes.

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Well, Strong's Concordance has this for the word translated "hymns":

"5214. ὑμνέω humneo [hoom-neh’-o]; from 5215; to hymn, i.e. sing a religious ode; by implication, to celebrate (God) in song: — sing a hymn (praise unto)."

Cathode said:

We are not called to simply read these things in Scripture, but live the faith out in worship.
Christianity is not just an intellectual exercise, we are meant to engage our whole being and senses, be immersed in it.

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Unusually, I agree with you.

David Lamb said:

Yet there is absolutely nothing in the bible that suggests that the early church leaders would have dressed in special clothing that marked them out if it were not for persecution. Besides, it wasn't only the church leaders who were persecuted:

“Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.” (Ac 9:1-2 NKJV)

Church leaders who wear similar clothing to other church members today are not doing so to avoid persecution.

Well, Strong's Concordance has this for the word translated "hymns":

"5214. ὑμνέω humneo [hoom-neh’-o]; from 5215; to hymn, i.e. sing a religious ode; by implication, to celebrate (God) in song: — sing a hymn (praise unto)."

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What you aren’t getting is that Jewish “hymns” and the psalms are chanted and they still are chanted today.


Chant is a huge part of Israelite worship from ancient times, and was used in the Temple worship.

Cathode said:

What you aren’t getting is that Jewish “hymns” and the psalms are chanted and they still are chanted today.

Chant is a huge part of Israelite worship from ancient times, and was used in the Temple worship.

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I am sure they are. I doubt they use plainsong, Gregorian chant, the chants Anglicans use for the psalms and canticles, etc.

David Lamb said:

Unusually, I agree with you.

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Great, we can celebrate that with a cup of tea and a slice of cake, and move on.

David Lamb said:

I am sure they are. I doubt they use plainsong, Gregorian chant, the chants Anglicans use for the psalms and canticles, etc.

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Chant is simply a form, not wrong of itself. It’s the content of it’s character that matters.

Cathode said:

Great, we can celebrate that with a cup of tea and a slice of cake, and move on.



Chant is simply a form, not wrong of itself. It’s the content of it’s character that matters.

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We Protestants surly have our disagreements in Scripture, but we all agree the Catholic way is the wrong way.

Charlie24 said:

We Protestants surly have our disagreements in Scripture, but we all agree the Catholic way is the wrong way.

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That’s what Korah and his fellows said of Moses, like all protesters they had authority issues.

They wanted to worship God how they wanted, directly challenging Moses Priesthood with Aaron.
Their offerings were not accepted however.

Cathode said:

That’s what Korah and his fellows said of Moses, like all protesters they had authority issues.

They wanted to worship God how they wanted, directly challenging Moses Priesthood with Aaron.
Their offerings were not accepted however.

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Korah and that bunch were protesting without faith, we are protesting with faith and because of faith.

Charlie24 said:

Korah and that bunch were protesting without faith, we are protesting with faith and because of faith.

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Do you believe Jesus flesh is real food and His blood is real drink?

Cathode said:

Do you believe Jesus flesh is real food and His blood is real drink?

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I'm not a Catholic, so no, I certainly don't!

Christ spoke symbolically all the time, and it was symbolic as the means of entering into the New Covenant.

Charlie24 said:

I'm not a Catholic, so no, I certainly don't!

Christ spoke symbolically all the time, and it was symbolic as the means of entering into the New Covenant.

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Jesus didn’t say symbolic food and symbolic drink, but real food and real drink.

I believe it because Jesus said it, not because I understand it.

You rationalise this as symbolic but only faith will bear you over, the singularity of Faith is the eye of the needle, the way is narrow, very narrow.

Forget human rationalisations, believe Jesus words.

“ To whom shall we go, you have the words of everlasting life “

Do not believe only what you understand, believe it because Jesus said it. This is “ Faith ”.