Confession for Baptist’s and Protestants in general

[Cathode]

There was NO catholic church of Rome until the Papacy was founded in 5-6 century

You all seem to have so many different times when the papacy began.

“And he says to him again after the resurrection, ‘Feed my sheep.’ It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided.” Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

“After such things as these, moreover, they still dare–a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics–to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access.” Cyprian, To Cornelius, Epistle 54/59:14 (A.D. 252).

“Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail” Augustine, Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (A.D. 393).

“I am held in the communion of the Catholic Church by…and by the succession of bishops from the very seat of Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection commended His sheep to be fed up to the present episcopate.” Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, 5 (A.D. 395).

“Carthage was also near the countries over the sea, and distinguished by illustrious renown, so that it had a bishop of more than ordinary influence, who could afford to disregard a number of conspiring enemies because he saw himself joined by letters of communion to the Roman Church, in which the supremacy of an apostolic chair has always flourished.” Augustine, To Glorius et.al, Epistle 43:7 (A.D. 397).

“The chair of the Roman Church, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today.” Augustine, Against the Letters of Petillian, 2:51 (A.D. 402).

 

[Cathode]

Only God can forgive our sins, only Jesus is the Mediator and High Priest

Jesus delegated His power to forgive or retain sin to the Apostles and the Apostles to their successors.
The High Priest in the Old Testament also delegated Authority for sin offerings in the Temple as a foreshadowing of the new Covenant Priesthood.

“Just as in the Old Testament the priest makes the leper clean or unclean, so in the New Testament the bishop and presbyter binds or looses not those who are innocent or guilty, but by reason of their office, when they have heard various kinds of sins, they know who is to be bound and who loosed.” Jerome, Commentary on Matthew, 3:16,19 (A.D. 398).

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” Hippolytus (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

“Moreover, how much are they both greater in faith and better in their fear, who, although bound by no crime of sacrifice to idols or of certificate, yet, since they have even thought of such things, with grief and simplicity confess this very thing to God’s priests, and make the conscientious avowal, put off from them the load of their minds, and seek out the salutary medicine even for slight and moderate wounds, knowing that it is written, ‘God is not mocked.’ God cannot be mocked, nor deceived, nor deluded by any deceptive cunning. Yea, he sins the more, who, thinking that God is like man, believes that he evades the penalty of his crime if he has not openly admitted his crime…I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sin, while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are pleasing to the Lord?” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 28-29 (A.D. 251).

 

[Marooncat79]

Figures of speech, word pictures etc can make for vivid imagery and really drive a point home

 

[Mikoo]

The priest is part of the one another, the Early Church practiced public confession in the Church before the Elders who then absolved their sins.

I already quoted the Didache 70 Ad, public confession was practiced across the whole Church.

Again, one another, not a rcc denominational 'priest'. It is God who forgives sins.

 

[Mikoo]

Many people did hold Clements writings as scripture,

Their mistake.

because he was a direct disciple of Peter and co-labourer of Paul.

Like I wrote, yet God seemed to have thought it not necessary to include anything Clement wrote into His Holy Word (Bible).

However the Catholic Church Councils did not include Clements writings in the first Canon.

Nope. It was God did not include Clements writings in His Word.

 

[Cathode]

Again, one another, not a rcc denominational 'priest'. It is God who forgives sins.

Confession was made in Church before the whole community.

Didache means teachings, these were called The teachings of the Apostles, which were the practical and communal procedures of the Early Christians, laid out by the Apostles.

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

Here we see how you are to confess your sins to one another, before the whole community in Church, with the Elder or Bishop.

So it gives context to the scriptures about confessing “your sins to one another”, it was done in Church before the whole community.

 

[Cathode]

It is God who forgives sins.

Yes God forgives sins. What the priest declares forgiven on earth, Heaven holds as forgiven.
This is the power of binding and loosing granted by Jesus to the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles.

 

[Cathode]

Their mistake.

Like I wrote, yet God seemed to have thought it not necessary to include anything Clement wrote into His Holy Word (Bible).

Nope. It was God did not include Clements writings in His Word.

God inspired and Infallibly guided the Catholic Church Councils in determining the Canon of Scripture, yes.

There were 53 books that many were claiming to be gospels.

The criterion the Catholic Councils set was only to include the books that were continuously read in Church from the Apostles.

This excluded the writings of Barnabus and Clement whose writings didn’t fit the very narrow criterion. Although they knew the Apostles personally.
They could only verify 73 books that were continuously read in Church from the Apostles. That is how the first Bible was determined.

 

[Mikoo]

Confession was made in Church before the whole community.

Didache means teachings, these were called The teachings of the Apostles, which were the practical and communal procedures of the Early Christians, laid out by the Apostles.

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

Here we see how you are to confess your sins to one another, before the whole community in Church, with the Elder or Bishop.

So it gives context to the scriptures about confessing “your sins to one another”, it was done in Church before the whole community.

Didache is not the Word of God. Confess your sins to God for forgiveness. Pretty simple.

 

[Mikoo]

Yes God forgives sins.

True

What the priest declares forgiven on earth, Heaven holds as forgiven.

Rcc denomination man made rules

This is the power of binding and loosing granted by Jesus to the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles.

To the Apostles. Agree

 

[Mikoo]

God inspired and Infallibly guided the Catholic Church Councils in determining the Canon of Scripture, yes.

There were 53 books that many were claiming to be gospels.

The criterion the Catholic Councils set was only to include the books that were continuously read in Church from the Apostles.

This excluded the writings of Barnabus and Clement whose writings didn’t fit the very narrow criterion. Although they knew the Apostles personally.
They could only verify 73 books that were continuously read in Church from the Apostles. That is how the first Bible was determined.

So you agree with what I wrote. Thanks.

 

[JesusFan]

The priest is part of the one another, the Early Church practiced public confession in the Church before the Elders who then absolved their sins.

I already quoted the Didache 70 Ad, public confession was practiced across the whole Church.

You would do far better to quote the inspired 66 canon of scripture instead!

 

[JesusFan]

Many people did hold Clements writings as scripture, because he was a direct disciple of Peter and co-labourer of Paul.
However the Catholic Church Councils did not include Clements writings in the first Canon.

The Holy Spirit only inspired the 66 canon books as scripture

 

[JesusFan]

Wrong. You need to read the lives of the Saints, miracles and wonders never ceased.

ALL saved are saints and priests to God, and while God can still do healings and miracles, none ever were gifted to do such since John passed

 

[JesusFan]

There were no Revelatory Apostles after the Apostles died, but the Apostolic ministry continued in the successors, the Bishops of the Church.
The Bishops are Apostles in ministry, not new revelation.
After John there was no new revelation.

Nor any traditions of mere men as Rome holds with being

 

[JesusFan]

When the apostle James was killed with the sword in Acts, why didn't the Scripture tell us of a successor to his apostleship?

Is it maybe because there wasn't one?

When peter and Paul both died as martyrs for Jesus, why didn't the Holy Spirit have them draw more lots to replace their ranks?

 

[JesusFan]

You all seem to have so many different times when the papacy began.

“And he says to him again after the resurrection, ‘Feed my sheep.’ It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided.” Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

“After such things as these, moreover, they still dare–a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics–to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access.” Cyprian, To Cornelius, Epistle 54/59:14 (A.D. 252).

“Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail” Augustine, Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (A.D. 393).

“I am held in the communion of the Catholic Church by…and by the succession of bishops from the very seat of Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection commended His sheep to be fed up to the present episcopate.” Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, 5 (A.D. 395).

“Carthage was also near the countries over the sea, and distinguished by illustrious renown, so that it had a bishop of more than ordinary influence, who could afford to disregard a number of conspiring enemies because he saw himself joined by letters of communion to the Roman Church, in which the supremacy of an apostolic chair has always flourished.” Augustine, To Glorius et.al, Epistle 43:7 (A.D. 397).

“The chair of the Roman Church, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today.” Augustine, Against the Letters of Petillian, 2:51 (A.D. 402).

Your sources being cited as not inspired, and are built upon very circular reasoning going on, and in the book of Acts, Peter was "pope" to the Jews, Paul ope" to the Gentiles, while James occupied same function at the Mother Church in Jerusalem so who was really "first pope?"

 

[Ben1445]

“Hence God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: 'I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord: but ye profane it.' He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we glorify His name, and that you profane” Justin Martyr Dia Trypho the Jew 155 Ad

if the offering changed, why not the incense?

 

[Cathode]

if the offering changed, why not the incense?

The Old Covenant offering was the foreshadowing of the New Covenant offering, the form of worship remained the same, with incense.

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”
—Revelation 8:3-4

Our solemn prayers are offered with incense. Incense is mingled with our prayers.

 

[Walter]

The Old Covenant offering was the foreshadowing of the New Covenant offering, the form of worship remained the same, with incense.

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”
—Revelation 8:3-4

Our solemn prayers are offered with incense. Incense is mingled with our prayers.

Yes!

I read the following commentary: 'John describes the heavenly worship in these terms: “The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The angels also play a role in bringing our prayers to God: “The smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:4). If intercession among members of the body of Christ on earth is “good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior” (1 Tim. 2:1–4), how would such behavior not also be pleasing to God in heaven?'