Self defense and security teams?

John of Japan said:

Agreed.

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But being gunned down, knifed, or otherwise killed by others due to them being demon possessed, drugged/drunk/ etc is not death by Martyrdom

Darrell C said:

What comes to mind is a shepherd protecting his flock. In David's day, for example, he sang softly but carried a big stick. In our day, we could hope John OJ scenarios might take place, where the intruder gets a whupping and is taken into custody, but back then, lions and wolves didn't carry guns. We're a small congregation, so not much of a target, but I feel it is more of a duty of the pastor to take precautions to keep his flock protected from physical danger as well as spiritual. Just my two cents.

God bless.

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God still dispatched an angel to slay 185000 of the enemies of God in one night, not too much there "turning other cheeck"

JesusFan said:

God still dispatched an angel to slay 185000 of the enemies of God in one night, not too much there "turning other cheeck"

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Not actually relevant to the discussion at hand. We have to distinguish between the differing ministrations of God throughout Scripture. He also told Israel to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan, not something He would require of Christians under New Covenant doctrine.

It gets a little iffy in a discussion like this, and I think both sides can make great points as to why they decide one way or the other. However, if we consider the principle's that work their way through every Age we can make some conclusions as to what the mind of God would be. Since one of the first principles we learn about God is that murderers (and that is what everyone who takes a gun into public and willfully takes the lives of others is) are not to be tolerated, and this is a common view God maintains throughout every Age, I think it reasonable to conclude that the murderer has forfeited his own life by acting contrary to God's will. It doesn't matter that he doesn't know it, that knowledge should have been taught him by his parents and society. And I think it also reasonable to say—he does know it.

Romans 13:3-4
King James Version

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Every deacon or member of a fellowship that has duly appointed to the task of dealing with intruders has, in my personal opinion, as much authority within our culture as a policeman, and if putting the intruder to death becomes necessary, so be it. To stand by and let someone murder others and not do something about violates numerous principles God has maintained since the very beginning of the Revelation of His will. It is not ordaining men for a "crusade," because they don't go out looking for people to put to death in God's Name. They perform a function that, sadly, has become almost necessary in some parts of our country.

Again, I view them as having a God-appointed position and serve as revengers of God's wrath.

I think it also possible that some of these guys probably "case" their intended targets, and if so, knowing there are armed members is probably a great deterrent.

I'll leave you with a question: if a fellowship hired an off-duty, unbelieving policeman for this cause, would that be okay?

God bless.

Darrell C said:

What comes to mind is a shepherd protecting his flock. In David's day, for example, he sang softly but carried a big stick. In our day, we could hope John OJ scenarios might take place, where the intruder gets a whupping and is taken into custody, but back then, lions and wolves didn't carry guns. We're a small congregation, so not much of a target, but I feel it is more of a duty of the pastor to take precautions to keep his flock protected from physical danger as well as spiritual. Just my two cents.

God bless.

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I agree...but I view the application differently (protecting against powers in tge "spiritual realm").

Darrell C said:

What comes to mind is a shepherd protecting his flock. In David's day, for example, he sang softly but carried a big stick. In our day, we could hope John OJ scenarios might take place, where the intruder gets a whupping and is taken into custody, but back then, lions and wolves didn't carry guns. We're a small congregation, so not much of a target, but I feel it is more of a duty of the pastor to take precautions to keep his flock protected from physical danger as well as spiritual. Just my two cents.

God bless.

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The important thing is that there is a prayer and fasting routine in place, specifically for protection, make it part of community prayer, home prayer.
Whether people are home or far away, in Church or at work or at study.
Build a storehouse of Grace by prayer and fasting.

At Grace pray also for times of famine for your food to multiplied in your need and medication.

JonC said:

I agree...but I view the application differently (protecting against powers in tge "spiritual realm").

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I take the view that "the spiritual realm" involves the flesh of wicked men as well. When we see people commit heinous crimes, I believe many of them operate under demonic possession. And even when it is simply the evil within men, there's still good reason not to stand around and watch evil act out. Especially when it comes to the gathering of believers.

I can respect your view, but I cannot agree that our responsibilities to each other end with prayer. Being prepared for occasions like this can't hurt, in my view, and as I said before, likely serve as a deterrent.

God bless.

Cathode said:

The important thing is that there is a prayer and fasting routine in place, specifically for protection, make it part of community prayer, home prayer.
Whether people are home or far away, in Church or at work or at study.
Build a storehouse of Grace by prayer and fasting.

At Grace pray also for times of famine for your food to multiplied in your need and medication.

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Ouch. My toes ...



God bless.

I can't stand the "hand on hip pacifist", their passive aggressiveness, and the pacifism that affects most of Christendom today. One of the difficult things about referring to the Old Testament as the "Old" is that the historic military nature and heritage of Israel is often "spiritualized" today in the church. Whenever somebody says, we are warriors or soldiers in the spiritual context I am thinking, "but not really". Especially when the prayer following entails the mass executions and persecutions of Christians.

I do not believe in "replacement theology", and in the context of the church the church often replaces Israel throughout the pages by interpretation, "but not really".

Darrell C said:

I take the view that "the spiritual realm" involves the flesh of wicked men as well. When we see people commit heinous crimes, I believe many of them operate under demonic possession. And even when it is simply the evil within men, there's still good reason not to stand around and watch evil act out. Especially when it comes to the gathering of believers.

I can respect your view, but I cannot agree that our responsibilities to each other end with prayer. Being prepared for occasions like this can't hurt, in my view, and as I said before, likely serve as a deterrent.

God bless.

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Yes, the "spiritual realm" involves the flesh of both saints and sinners (this is the powers behind our desires, what is manifested in the flesh). For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

JonC said:

Yes, the "spiritual realm" involves the flesh of both saints and sinners (this is the powers behind our desires, what is manifested in the flesh). For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

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I appreciate you @JonC addressing Ephesians 6:12 in the "spiritual realm" context. The Apostle Paul is using military metaphors and addresses our day-to-day struggles. There are of course exceptions, for example, when our physical existence is not only threatened but actually harmed. In these cases, Paul addresses right motives, not in vengeance but of course the proper course of action exists "ideally", that is, considering the design of government to actually wield the sword and that is not a metaphor but to become an obstacle and combat evil by physically executing justice.

That gives us a realistic perspective on what and how we should appeal to our civil magistrates (rulers). The Law is not in our hands to execute because "like" Israel, Israel was put under subjection by many enemies including Rome. Then again, it was never in the hands of the individual Israelite but involved their civil magistrates. Self-defense, however, is not about executing justice for crimes committed which could involve life or restitution but preventing unrighteous acts that are an immediate imminent danger to our or the life of others. Self-defense, perhaps, can only truly be appreciated by the "Sanctity of Life" position. However, that is so far from our society today it is out of touch w/ the present and any foreseeable reality. Metaphors..... are sometimes inappropriate and sometimes convey the only option against evil rulers.

Christforums said:

I appreciate you @JonC addressing Ephesians 6:12 in the "spiritual realm" context. The Apostle Paul is using military metaphors and addresses our day-to-day struggles. There are of course exceptions, for example, when our physical existence is not only threatened but actually harmed. In these cases, Paul addresses right motives, not in vengeance but of course the proper course of action exists "ideally", that is, considering the design of government to actually wield the sword and that is not a metaphor but to become an obstacle and combat evil by physically executing justice.

That gives us a realistic perspective on what and how we should appeal to our civil magistrates (rulers). The Law is not in our hands to execute because "like" Israel, Israel was put under subjection by many enemies including Rome. Then again, it was never in the hands of the individual Israelite but involved their civil magistrates. Self-defense, however, is not about executing justice for crimes committed which could involve life or restitution but preventing unrighteous acts that are an immediate imminent danger to our or the life of others. Self-defense, perhaps, can only truly be appreciated by the "Sanctity of Life" position. However, that is so far from our society today it is out of touch w/ the present and any foreseeable reality. Metaphors..... are sometimes inappropriate and sometimes convey the only option against evil rulers.

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I just try to keep in mind what Jesus said regarding the expectation that the Messiah would fight against injustice in their environment when He said "My kingdom is not of this world".