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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
I agree with that interpretation, but I also recognize that I am biased towards that view. [John 6:44 predisposes me to the belief that God MUST initiate salvation.]

So in Ephesians 2:1, how can we be certain that "who were dead in trespasses and sins" meant "man cannot come to God as a corpse cannot do anything" and was not intended to signify a spiritual state of rebellion? ("you are all dead to me" - said God).
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He does more than initiate salvation, He goes all the way and saves.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Man by nature can't by his own freewill ability come to Christ because all men by nature are spiritually dead in [in the sphere of] trespasses and sins. Speaking of Gods elect Paul writes of them by nature Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word dead here nekros means:

adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

The lifeless here by nature is lifeless spiritually. Spiritually to God and things of God man naturally is liken to a dead lifeless corpse.

Jesus used this same word here Matt 8:22

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Now the dead was to bury the dead. The Spiritually dead person was to bury the physically dead person. Yet the Spiritually dead person wasn't dead physically was he ? Did you know that one can be dead, lifeless and yet be physically live and active ?

Now in order for a man to come to Christ he must first have life, no not physical life but spiritual life which not even the elect have by nature. 2
Click to expand...

Your interpretation has been coloured by your bias. We should let the bible give us guidance.

Joh 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Jesus said that He gave life to whomever He pleased and then went on to describe those people as those who hear His word and believe the Father.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

But what condition were these people in spiritually prior to hearing the gospel message? They were in Jesus's words "dead" but this did not stop them from responding to the message. [Rom 1:16]

Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

"Realized eschatology" is the aspect of future conditions that exist already in the present. In this case it refers to the believer's possession of eternal life already. Beasley-Murray called this verse "the strongest affirmation of realized eschatology applied to the believer in the NT." [Note: Beasley-Murray, p. 76.]

People pass from death to life the moment they believe [1Jn_3:14]

atpollard said:
I agree with that interpretation, but I also recognize that I am biased towards that view. [John 6:44 predisposes me to the belief that God MUST initiate salvation.]

So in Ephesians 2:1, how can we be certain that "who were dead in trespasses and sins" meant "man cannot come to God as a corpse cannot do anything" and was not intended to signify a spiritual state of rebellion? ("you are all dead to me" - said God).
Click to expand...

You see man prior to salvation as a spiritual corpse but if so then how do they sin?

As you said you have a bias but the remedy for that is to read the word that Jesus spoke.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jesus makes it clear that the time when the [spiritually] dead will hear the voice of the Son of God unto life is “now.” How does this happen? It happens through faith in Christ,
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (just hearing is not enough, they must also believe/trust) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. This clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration.

So the oft repeated C/R analogy of the preacher in the morgue preaching to a corpse is shown to be in contrast to the words of Jesus.

Jesus tells us that the “dead” will “hear” (in faith) unto “life” and the C/R' tells us that only those who are already regenerated can “hear” unto faith. Jesus says that hearing and faith come before life and C/R's says that life comes before hearing and faith. C/R's say that the “dead” cannot possibly hear anything, just like a lifeless physical corpse. Jesus tells us that the “dead” can hear (Rom_10:17; Gal_3:2), and this hearing by faith is what moves those who hear from the state of spiritual death to the state of spiritual life.

So are you going to allow your personal bias overrule the words of Christ Jesus?
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
You see man prior to salvation as a spiritual corpse but if so then how do they sin?
Click to expand...

Like this ...

Romans 7:13-25 [NKJV]
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that [it is] good. 17 But now, [it is] no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will [to do], I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do], that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not [to do], it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Which is an echo of the same reality found in all men (without the law) here:

Romans 1:18-23 [NKJV]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Thus we see, with or without the Law, men can have knowledge (mind/thought/reason) of the truth and still be completely unwilling (incapable?) of ACTING on that knowledge RIGHTLY.

We can KNOW God, and still be futile in our thinking.
We can WANT to do good, but find ourselves a slave to sin doing the thing we hate.

Paul cries out "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" ... and provides a clear answer in another letter: "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure." - [Philippians 2:13]

We are DEAD to the things of God and alive to the things of the flesh, just as Ephesians 2 describes:

And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. - Ephesians 2:1-3 [NKJV]

Silverhair said:
As you said you have a bias but the remedy for that is to read the word that Jesus spoke.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jesus makes it clear that the time when the [spiritually] dead will hear the voice of the Son of God unto life is “now.” How does this happen? It happens through faith in Christ,
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (just hearing is not enough, they must also believe/trust) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. This clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration.

So the oft repeated C/R analogy of the preacher in the morgue preaching to a corpse is shown to be in contrast to the words of Jesus.

Jesus tells us that the “dead” will “hear” (in faith) unto “life” and the C/R' tells us that only those who are already regenerated can “hear” unto faith. Jesus says that hearing and faith come before life and C/R's says that life comes before hearing and faith. C/R's say that the “dead” cannot possibly hear anything, just like a lifeless physical corpse. Jesus tells us that the “dead” can hear (Rom_10:17; Gal_3:2), and this hearing by faith is what moves those who hear from the state of spiritual death to the state of spiritual life.

So are you going to allow your personal bias overrule the words of Christ Jesus?
Click to expand...
Physician, Heal thyself.
The only difference between us is that I can see my bias and you are blind to yours.

Did Jesus say that "no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"?
Why do YOU not believe Jesus that the Father must first draw?

Did Jesus say "you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (rather than "you are not my sheep because you do not believe") and did Jesus not go on to say that His sheep were given to Him by the Father?
Why do YOU not believe Jesus that the Father must give the sheep?

Did God tell Moses "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" and did the Apostle Paul elaborate on that by stating: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."?
Why do YOU not believe God and Paul that it is NOT in the power of man who wills, but in God the Father who chooses whom He will show mercy on?
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Like this ...

Romans 7:13-25
Click to expand...
Not according to your religion they cannot. A corpse can do nothing as the C/R's are want to say.

I do find it funny how you can have a spiritual corpse sin but that same spiritual corpse cannot hear and believe.

But as I have shown you and which you seem to ignore, Christ says that those C/R "spiritual corpses" can hear and respond.

We all know that man sins but the C/R's have taken that to mean they can do nothing else but sin. The bible says man, even the sinful man, can and does do good deeds. Not good deeds onto salvation but still good deeds.

What does Paul say he is doing on a continuing basis? He is at war with his mind and body. He chose too trust and follow God but in his bidy he still sins. So we see that even for the Christian this battle will continue. Free will is the ability to make real choices as we see Paul doing.

He even tells us how we can be set free from the body of death, through faith in Christ Jesus.


atpollard said:
Which is an echo of the same reality found in all men (without the law) here:

Romans 1:18-23 [
Click to expand...
Man knows of God and God says because he knows of God he has not excuse. Man can, as God indicates, choose to follow Him. They chose to suppress the truth. That shows free will. Man may be unwilling but he is obviously capable of trusting in God or they would have the best excuse going.

We also see where Paul says that man can turn to God in faith Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, [Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10]


atpollard said:
Thus we see, with or without the Law, men can have knowledge (mind/thought/reason) of the truth and still be completely unwilling (incapable?) of ACTING on that knowledge RIGHTLY.

We can KNOW God, and still be futile in our thinking.
We can WANT to do good, but find ourselves a slave to sin doing the thing we hate.
Click to expand...
You go to the extreme when you make the error of assuming that man cannot freely trust in Christ, that he cannot do good. God on the other had says man has no excuse because He knows man can do just that. And we also know that man does just that. As we are told, we love God because He first loved us. But love has to be freely given or it is not love.

atpollard said:
Paul cries out "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" ... and provides a clear answer in another letter: "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure." - [Philippians 2:13]
Click to expand...
Yes God works in believers to give us the strength to overcome this sinful body.Just as we arre told in 1Co 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

atpollard said:
We are DEAD to the things of God and alive to the things of the flesh, just as Ephesians 2 describes:

And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. - Ephesians 2:1-3
Click to expand...
What we see in Eph 2 is that even though we were dead in sin God has provided the way for our salvation.
Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
So the question then is why would God be gracious and save us sinners.
Eph 2:8 -9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Your interpretation has been coloured by your bias. We should let the bible give us guidance.

Joh 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Jesus said that He gave life to whomever He pleased and then went on to describe those people as those who hear His word and believe the Father.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

But what condition were these people in spiritually prior to hearing the gospel message? They were in Jesus's words "dead" but this did not stop them from responding to the message. [Rom 1:16]

Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

"Realized eschatology" is the aspect of future conditions that exist already in the present. In this case it refers to the believer's possession of eternal life already. Beasley-Murray called this verse "the strongest affirmation of realized eschatology applied to the believer in the NT." [Note: Beasley-Murray, p. 76.]

People pass from death to life the moment they believe [1Jn_3:14]
Click to expand...
Before regeneration we are dead in sin, alienated from the life of God, practically without hope Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

What does " having no hope" mean ? Could they just exercise their freewill ? lol
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
What we see in Eph 2 is that even though we were dead in sin God has provided the way for our salvation.
Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
So the question then is why would God be gracious and save us sinners.
Eph 2:8 -9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Click to expand...
Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

GOD made us alive.
GOD DID IT; we did not exercise our free will and choose it ... we were "dead".


Eph 2:8 -9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Our "salvation" is a gift of God ... not a free choice of man.
It is NOT of ourselves ... we do NOT freely choose to believe, because that would be OF OURSELVES and this is NOT of ourselves.

See your bias.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Physician, Heal thyself.
The only difference between us is that I can see my bias and you are blind to yours.

Did Jesus say that "no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"?
Why do YOU not believe Jesus that the Father must first draw?

Did Jesus say "you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (rather than "you are not my sheep because you do not believe") and did Jesus not go on to say that His sheep were given to Him by the Father?
Why do YOU not believe Jesus that the Father must give the sheep?

Did God tell Moses "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" and did the Apostle Paul elaborate on that by stating: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."?
Why do YOU not believe God and Paul that it is NOT in the power of man who wills, but in God the Father who chooses whom He will show mercy on?
Click to expand...

I have quoted John 12:32 many times and have said that God draws man through various means. Creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message, etc.
So how can you ask if I believe God draws man to Himself?

I am not blind to my bias. I have stated it more than once. I trust the word of God as clearly written being understood in the context in which it is found.

You quoted "you do not believe because you are not my sheep" but ignore the context in which the statement is found. Why do you continue to do that? Those that believe in Christ Jesus are His sheep so those that do not believe His works or words are not His sheep. You would understand this if you had bothered to study the context of that verse. Joh 10:22-28

Of course it is in the power of God as to whom He will give mercy. And we know that He shows mercy to those that have freely trusted in His son. We all deserve to be cast into hell for our sins but He has chosen to be merciful to those that trust in the risen Christ.

God’s mercy is not given to us
because of what we wish to do (him who wills), or
because of what we actually do (him who runs),
but simply out of His [God's] desire to show mercy.

Why do YOU continue to deny that God gives mercy to those that have freely trusted in His son?
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Only God can save, so mercy, but He only saves those that believe.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Before regeneration we are dead in sin, alienated from the life of God, practically without hope Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

What does " having no hope" mean ? Could they just exercise their freewill ? lol
Click to expand...

Regeneration means made anew, in other words born again. One is only born again when they have trusted in Christ Jesus.

Just as Paul has made clear we are saved by God when we respond with faith to the gospel message.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You continue to fight against the clear word of God.

The bible is clear that we do exercise our free will.

The question is, why do you continue to deny this?
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Regeneration means made anew, in other words born again. One is only born again when they have trusted in Christ Jesus.

Just as Paul has made clear we are saved by God when we respond with faith to the gospel message.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You continue to fight against the clear word of God.

The bible is clear that we do exercise our free will.

The question is, why do you continue to deny this?
Click to expand...
Before regeneration we are dead in sin, no spiritual life Eph 2:1,5
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Before regeneration we are dead in sin, no spiritual life Eph 2:1,5
Click to expand...

True BF, before they freely trust in the risen Christ they have no spiritual life. But they do not need spiritual life in order to hear and respond to the gospel message. In actual fact that is the condition of all people before they respond to the gospel, we were all dead in our sins.

The bible is clear that we can hear and respond to the gospel message that is why we are told to preach the good news. [2Ti 4:2] The gospel is the power of God to salvation. [RRom 1:16]

I have shown you these verses [Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10, Rom 10:13-14, Eph 2:8-9] many many times and you just refuse to accept them BF. Why is that?

Brightfame52 said:
If one is Spiritually dead in sin, how can they perform spiritual actions?
Click to expand...

They are not preforming a spiritual action BF. They are trusting the gospel message that was presented.

Brightfame52 said:
How can a person hear spiritually if they don't have spiritual ears to hear?
Click to expand...

Where do you get these silly ideas BF. They do not have to hear spiritually, they just have to hear and respond.

Wesley Briggman said:
"No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !"

True! Freewill is a lie of satan.
Click to expand...

Then you have a problem with Christ. Paul would have a few words for you also. And lets not forget John.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
True BF, before they freely trust in the risen Christ they have no spiritual life. But they do not need spiritual life in order to hear and respond to the gospel message. In actual fact that is the condition of all people before they respond to the gospel, we were all dead in our sins.

The bible is clear that we can hear and respond to the gospel message that is why we are told to preach the good news. [2Ti 4:2] The gospel is the power of God to salvation. [RRom 1:16]

I have shown you these verses [Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10, Rom 10:13-14, Eph 2:8-9] many many times and you just refuse to accept them BF. Why is that?
Click to expand...
If one is Spiritually dead in sin, how can they perform spiritual actions?
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
True BF, before they freely trust in the risen Christ they have no spiritual life. But they do not need spiritual life in order to hear and respond to the gospel message. In actual fact that is the condition of all people before they respond to the gospel, we were all dead in our sins.

The bible is clear that we can hear and respond to the gospel message that is why we are told to preach the good news. [2Ti 4:2] The gospel is the power of God to salvation. [RRom 1:16]

I have shown you these verses [Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9-10, Rom 10:13-14, Eph 2:8-9] many many times and you just refuse to accept them BF. Why is that?
Click to expand...
How can a person hear spiritually if they don't have spiritual ears to hear?
 
D

Dave...

Member
atpollard said:
Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

GOD made us alive.
GOD DID IT; we did not exercise our free will and choose it ... we were "dead".


Eph 2:8 -9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Our "salvation" is a gift of God ... not a free choice of man.
It is NOT of ourselves ... we do NOT freely choose to believe, because that would be OF OURSELVES and this is NOT of ourselves.

See your bias.
Click to expand...
We enter into that grace by faith (Romans 5:1-2), thus "through" faith Ephesians 2:. The life begins when we receive the Spirit of God. Made alive together with Christ happens when we receive the Holy Spirit. With the Spirit, we are His, without the Spirit, we are not (Romans 8:9-11). The Spirit is given as a result of faith (Gal. 3:2-3). The life spoken of is all a gift from God, it's from the Spirit, thus it is not of the flesh.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
They are not preforming a spiritual action BF. They are trusting the gospel message that was presented.
Click to expand...
Yes those are spiritual actions, for instance one must be of God to hear the words of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The natural man as Jesus told these jews, cannot hear Gods word or understand it spiritually Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Silverhair said:
They are not preforming a spiritual action BF. They are trusting the gospel message that was presented.
Click to expand...
Yes they are. Natural man cannot perform

Silverhair said:
Where do you get these silly ideas BF. They do not have to hear spiritually, they just have to hear and respond.
Click to expand...
They silly to you, but its the Truth of God

Silverhair said:
BF the more you write the sadder it is. You refuse to read the word of God in context thus you do not understand what we are being told.

If you had done that you would know what Christ was saying. He is speaking of the people accepting what He says or rejecting what He says.

It is all about one exercising their free will BF. Just as you are doing when you reject the truths of God's word and come up with your our special interpretation.
Click to expand...
To be of God means to be saved, thats who it is given to hear Gods word

Silverhair said:
Thankfully most Christians are not as deluded as you are BF.

You cherry pick verses and have used them to construct a false narrative of the word of God.

That you think you are being biblical is your choice but that others may actually think what you say is the biblical truth and fall for your false views is the most disturbing to me.
Click to expand...
Jesus tells us who it is that Hears the word of God, what does He say ? Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Yes those are spiritual actions, for instance one must be of God to hear the words of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The natural man as Jesus told these jews, cannot hear Gods word or understand it spiritually Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Click to expand...

BF the more you write the sadder it is. You refuse to read the word of God in context thus you do not understand what we are being told.

If you had done that you would know what Christ was saying. He is speaking of the people accepting what He says or rejecting what He says.

It is all about one exercising their free will BF. Just as you are doing when you reject the truths of God's word and come up with your our special interpretation.

Brightfame52 said:
To be of God means to be saved, thats who it is given to hear Gods word
Click to expand...

Thankfully most Christians are not as deluded as you are BF.

You cherry pick verses and have used them to construct a false narrative of the word of God.

That you think you are being biblical is your choice but that others may actually think what you say is the biblical truth and fall for your false views is the most disturbing to me.

Brightfame52 said:
Jesus tells us who it is that Hears the word of God, what does He say ? Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Click to expand...

BF if you go back to
Joh 8:13 So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."
you will see that Jesus is speaking to the Jews. They should have know who He was as they had the scriptures that pointed to Him.

It was not that they could not hear [understand] it was that they would not accept that He was their long awaited Messiah.

You keep making logical errors.
You are saying that no one can hear the words of God as no one is of God until they are saved and you will not be saved until to hear and believe the gospel message.

You do not think through what you are saying BF so you continue to make illogical comments.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Thankfully most Christians are not as deluded as you are BF.

You cherry pick verses and have used them to construct a false narrative of the word of God.

That you think you are being biblical is your choice but that others may actually think what you say is the biblical truth and fall for your false views is the most disturbing to me.
Click to expand...
John 8:47 (KJB)He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Heareth and hear - Hearing with spiritual understanding Words (rhema) - Discourse, declaration, command, or promise Here Jesus tells them plainly that the reason that the Jews will not hear the words of God is because they do not possess the spiritual ears which accompanies a person who is saved. The only way we can hear and truly understand the Gospel is by being saved and when a person is saved, they belong to God. These Jews were unsaved and did not belong to God because three verses back Jesus told them plainly that they were of their father the devil. Those who are in Satan’s camp cannot hear the word of God, one must be qualified to hear them and that qualification comes through salvation in Christ alone. This also brings up another point that those who think they can work their way to Heaven will not be able to. The ones who work are hearing the word of God physically but they are not understanding it spiritually which opens up the true meanings of Scripture.

Link
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
John 8:47 (KJB)He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Heareth and hear - Hearing with spiritual understanding Words (rhema) - Discourse, declaration, command, or promise Here Jesus tells them plainly that the reason that the Jews will not hear the words of God is because they do not possess the spiritual ears which accompanies a person who is saved. The only way we can hear and truly understand the Gospel is by being saved and when a person is saved, they belong to God. These Jews were unsaved and did not belong to God because three verses back Jesus told them plainly that they were of their father the devil. Those who are in Satan’s camp cannot hear the word of God, one must be qualified to hear them and that qualification comes through salvation in Christ alone. This also brings up another point that those who think they can work their way to Heaven will not be able to. The ones who work are hearing the word of God physically but they are not understanding it spiritually which opens up the true meanings of Scripture.

Link
Click to expand...

Think through what you just wrote BF.
Note your words BF "they do not possess the spiritual ears which accompanies a person who is saved."

The only way a person can hear and believe is if they have your so called "spiritual ears" but they cannot have those spiritual ears until they are saved. So no one can be saved as no one has those special ears.

The sad part is that you do not even see the error in your thinking.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
BF if you go back to
Joh 8:13 So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."
you will see that Jesus is speaking to the Jews. They should have know who He was as they had the scriptures that pointed to Him.

It was not that they could not hear [understand] it was that they would not accept that He was their long awaited Messiah.

You keep making logical errors.
You are saying that no one can hear the words of God as no one is of God until they are saved and you will not be saved until to hear and believe the gospel message.

You do not think through what you are saying BF so you continue to make illogical comments.
Click to expand...
Jesus tells us who it is that Hears the word of God, what does He say ? Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Silverhair said:
Think through what you just wrote BF.
Note your words BF "they do not possess the spiritual ears which accompanies a person who is saved."

The only way a person can hear and believe is if they have your so called "spiritual ears" but they cannot have those spiritual ears until they are saved. So no one can be saved as no one has those special ears.

The sad part is that you do not even see the error in your thinking.
Click to expand...
I didnt write it, I provided the link to who wrote it.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Jesus tells us who it is that Hears the word of God, what does He say ? Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Click to expand...

BF you continue to make the same mistake over and over. Look at who Jesus was speaking to. The context of the conversation will clear up many of you mistakes.

The Jews claimed to love God but their rejection of Jesus showed that they in fact did not. They were not of God.

The verse does not tell us that you have to be of God before you can hear and respond to the gospel message if that is what you are suggesting.

Brightfame52 said:
I didnt write it, I provided the link to who wrote it.
Click to expand...

If you did not agree with it then why did you post it?

But either way the comment is still true.

Think through what you linked to BF.
Note your words BF "they do not possess the spiritual ears which accompanies a person who is saved."

The only way a person can hear and believe is if they have those so called "spiritual ears" but they cannot have those spiritual ears until they are saved. So no one can be saved as no one has those special ears prior to being saved.
 
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