Has God Ordained a certain style for Musical worship?

Scripture More Accurately · Tuesday at 5:48 AM

JonC said:
I never said that it did. The music has to be a form that they can use as a personal expression of worship. It is cultural. Most today would have trouble worshipping with the instruments and styles used in the 1st Century. And they would have had trouble using our traditional hymns.

When we worship God our worship is a oersonal expression of worship.

But let's look at your understanding.

What styles of worship music do you believe God disapproved of and what passage supports that conclusion?

No, the music that is used for corporate worship does not have to be "a form that they can use as a personal expression of worship." It has to be something that pleases God and He accepts.

Saying, "It is cultural," is mere assertion. You have to show that is true from Scripture.

Whether someone "has trouble" doing something is irrelevant if God has commanded it or required it.

Saying, "When we worship God our worship is a [p]ersonal expression of worship," sounds a lot like every man is to do what is right in his own eyes. The Bible shows that is a wrong approach to pleasing God and doing His will.

David Lamb · Tuesday at 5:55 AM

Scripture More Accurately said:
No, the music that is used for corporate worship does not have to be "a form that they can use as a personal expression of worship." It has to be something that pleases God and He accepts.

Saying, "It is cultural," is mere assertion. You have to show that is true from Scripture.

Whether someone "has trouble" doing something is irrelevant if God has commanded it or required it.

Saying, "When we worship God our worship is a [p]ersonal expression of worship," sounds a lot like every man is to do what is right in his own eyes. The Bible shows that is a wrong approach to pleasing God and doing His will.

I would say that a key verse in the matter of worship is this one:

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

As far as I am aware, the New Testament doesn't say anything about musical styles to be used in worship, which musical instruments are acceptable to accomany the singing, and similar things.

John of Japan · Tuesday at 10:27 AM

David Lamb said:
I would say that a key verse in the matter of worship is this one:

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

As far as I am aware, the New Testament doesn't say anything about musical styles to be used in worship, which musical instruments are acceptable to accomany the singing, and similar things.

This is true about the NT, but we do have hints in the OT. When you look at the lists of instruments used to praise God in the temple orchestra, there is no drum, though the Egyptians had drums. (Caveat: there were, however, percussion instruments.) Again, in Psalm 150 we are given a list of acceptable instruments with which to praise God (not including drums).

David Lamb · Wednesday at 2:14 AM

John of Japan said:
This is true about the NT, but we do have hints in the OT. When you look at the lists of instruments used to praise God in the temple orchestra, there is no drum, though the Egyptians had drums. (Caveat: there were, however, percussion instruments.) Again, in Psalm 150 we are given a list of acceptable instruments with which to praise God (not including drums).

True, but I wonder how far you would take that? Psalm 150 includes these words:

“3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp! 4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes! 5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals!” (Ps 150:3-5 NKJV)

We certainly don't read of any New Testament churches using lutes, harps, timbrels (a tambourine-like drum), or clashing cymbals.

timf · Wednesday at 5:14 AM

Music touches the emotions and can be a way to express one's devotion to God and even share this with other Christians.

Col_3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

There is a danger that the emotional aspect of music might be used as a sort of self-stimulation that, even though mentioning God, actually is used to focus on one's own feelings.

JonC · Wednesday at 5:31 AM

John of Japan said:
This is true about the NT, but we do have hints in the OT. When you look at the lists of instruments used to praise God in the temple orchestra, there is no drum, though the Egyptians had drums. (Caveat: there were, however, percussion instruments.) Again, in Psalm 150 we are given a list of acceptable instruments with which to praise God (not including drums).

I don't see Psalm 150 as a list of acceptable instruments with which to praise God but more the instruments they used.

Scripture More Accurately · Wednesday at 5:32 AM

David Lamb said:
I would say that a key verse in the matter of worship is this one:

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

As far as I am aware, the New Testament doesn't say anything about musical styles to be used in worship, which musical instruments are acceptable to accomany the singing, and similar things.

The NT does reveal that there are uses of musical instruments that produce sounds that are not acceptable for use in corporate worship.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

In a profoundly negative comparison, the Spirit plainly likens certain kinds of supernaturally produced but loveless speaking to the sounds produced by certain soundings of two percussion instruments. We know with certainty from explicit OT revelation that cymbals could be and were used by God's people to produce sounds that were acceptable to God, but this passage via the negative comparison used informs us that there are other soundings of cymbals that are not acceptable to Him for use in corporate worship.

The NT thus profoundly instructs us in this passage that there are unacceptable ways of sounding certain percussion instruments. All kinds of music that feature such soundings of percussion instruments are not acceptable to God for use in corporate worship, just as loveless speaking with the tongues of men and of angels was not acceptable to God in corporate worship.

David Lamb · Wednesday at 5:51 AM

Scripture More Accurately said:
The NT does reveal that there are uses of musical instruments that produce sounds that are not acceptable for use in corporate worship.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

In a profoundly negative comparison, the Spirit plainly likens certain kinds of supernaturally produced but loveless speaking to the sounds produced by certain soundings of two percussion instruments. We know with certainty from explicit OT revelation that cymbals could be and were used by God's people to produce sounds that were acceptable to God, but this passage via the negative comparison used informs us that there are other soundings of cymbals that are not acceptable to Him for use in corporate worship.

The NT thus profoundly instructs us in this passage that there are unacceptable ways of sounding certain percussion instruments. All kinds of music that feature such soundings of percussion instruments are not acceptable to God for use in corporate worship, just as loveless speaking with the tongues of men and of angels is not acceptable to God in corporate worship.

But I would say that 1 Corinthians 13:1 is not talking about instruments to be used in worship, but about the effect of speaking fine-sounding words without true love. The sounding brass and the clanging cymbal are pictures that Paul uses to illustrate this.

Scripture More Accurately · Wednesday at 6:00 AM

David Lamb said:
But I would say that 1 Corinthians 13:1 is not talking about instruments to be used in worship, but about the effect of speaking fine-sounding words without true love. The sounding brass and the clanging cymbal are pictures that Paul uses to illustrate this.

This is not correct. That verse is not talking about "fine-sounding words." It is talking about words that are unintelligible without someone's having supernaturally God-given ability to interpret those words.

Moreover, 1 Corinthians 13:1 is revelation about corporate worship because it is part of Paul's extensive treatment of spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12-14) that must be used acceptably to God in corporate worship.

Saying, "The sounding brass and the clanging cymbal are pictures that Paul uses to illustrate" something is not what the text says. Moreover, the comparison only "works" if both parts of the comparison are factually true.

David Lamb · Wednesday at 6:17 AM

Scripture More Accurately said:
This is not correct. That verse is not talking about "fine-sounding words." It is talking about words that are unintelligible without someone's having supernaturally God-given ability to interpret those words.

Moreover, 1 Corinthians 13:1 is revelation about corporate worship because it is part of Paul's extensive treatment of spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12-14) that must be used acceptably to God in corporate worship.

Saying, "The sounding brass and the clanging cymbal are pictures that Paul uses to illustrate" something is not what the text says. Moreover, the comparison only "works" if both parts of the comparison are factually true.

Although I agree that it could include worship, the chapter is about Christian living generally. He gives examples such as understanding all mysteries and knowledge, giving all his possessions for the benefit of the poor, and giving his body to be burned.

As for the brass and cymbal not being illustrations, surely you don't think Paul was really saying that if he spoke in the way he described, without love, he would actually turn into a brass object, or a cymbal.

John of Japan · Wednesday at 9:09 AM

David Lamb said:
True, but I wonder how far you would take that? Psalm 150 includes these words:

“3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp! 4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes! 5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals!” (Ps 150:3-5 NKJV)

We certainly don't read of any New Testament churches using lutes, harps, timbrels (a tambourine-like drum), or clashing cymbals.

Very true. In fact, I seem to recall that for a while in the early church they did not allow musical instruments. But I have no trouble saying we can follow Psalm 150 as is. In our church we have an orchestra, including various stringed instruments (sans guitar, which however has appeared occasionally), and the tympani and cymbals. We have even had a tambourine show its face occasionally.

So I'm willing to follow OT Scripture about music in the NT church.

John of Japan · Wednesday at 9:32 AM

JonC said:
Correction - the music absolutely did not glorify God to you.

This is insulting. You have absolutely no factual evidence to say this. You weren't there. It was not your supporting church. You don't know what the building was like. You didn't hear the group. It was not your wife who suffered physically from the "music."

So apparently you think it glorifies God to cause physical discomfort and drive people away from your church with your music. We determined never to go back to that church, and never have.

And "glorifying God" is not some nebulous concept that we cannot describe. It is a real, definable thing.

JonC said:
CCM is lousy rock because it is not rock. Johnny Cash was a lousy Jazz singer as well.

Are you kidding me? A lot of CCM (not all) is rock: syncopation, strong electric base guitar, rock drum set (de rigueur in CCM), rhythm electric guitar, etc.

If that is not rock, how in the world do you define rock? Do you know anything about music theory? Do you play an instrument or know how to sing a part?

JonC said:
I mentioned attending the service in Kyoto. If I were honest, some of the music did not glorify God to me. I could not understand the words as I did not know the language. But I think it probably glorified God to those who understood Japaneese.

I do not think we can say the worship of other Christians absolutely did not glorify God in terms of God actually being glorified. We can only say whether we could worship in that style.

Sorry, but this statement doesn't make sense. "God actually being glorified." What is that?

JonC said:
For example, if I were to choose the absokute best music to glorify God it would be contemporary worship music. There would be guitars and drums. But I can also worship with hymns, it just would not be giving the best.

Why? Because worship is personal expressions of worship. Even corporate worship is a collection of individual expressions of worship.

Note: I need to say that I've been responding not to harass you but because I find this topic (and how we dress) fascinating. I love looking at both sides (or many sides) of the issue.

If you're not harassing me, please try to actually understand my posts. You've done a poor job with that.

JonC · Wednesday at 2:32 PM

John of Japan said:
This is insulting. You have absolutely no factual evidence to say this. You weren't there. It was not your supporting church. You don't know what the building was like. You didn't hear the group. It was not your wife who suffered physically from the "music."

So apparently you think it glorifies God to cause physical discomfort and drive people away from your church with your music. We determined never to go back to that church, and never have.

And "glorifying God" is not some nebulous concept that we cannot describe. It is a real, definable thing.

Are you kidding me? A lot of CCM (not all) is rock: syncopation, strong electric base guitar, rock drum set (de rigueur in CCM), rhythm electric guitar, etc.

If that is not rock, how in the world do you define rock? Do you know anything about music theory? Do you play an instrument or know how to sing a part?

Sorry, but this statement doesn't make sense. "God actually being glorified." What is that?

If you're not harassing me, please try to actually understand my posts. You've done a poor job with that.

I think you mistook my meaning (I worded it poorly).

The correction should read "Correction - to YOU the music did not glorify God".

We cannot say whether the music we dislike or suffer with glorifies God. We can onky say that we cannot worship with that music. Just because the music of some cultures hurts my ears (actually, affects me like fingernails on a chalkboard..hurts my brain more than ears) does not mean it hurts God's ears.

I did hear the group. I am not the criteria for determining what pleases God. One person may suffer with loud music while another suffer not being able to hear quite music.

Michal criticized David for worshipping in an undignified manner, all that dancing and banging around. Just like a commoner. Not sure God saw it that way.

Yes, CCM is not rock. It is not the instruments used but how they are played.

By God being glorified I mean God's glory proclaimed in the music and God being truely worshipped by those offering the praise.

I can only respond to what is written in a post (to the words on a screen). That is the trouble with this type of communication.

JonC · Wednesday at 2:38 PM

@John of Japan

This is my favorite worship song. You would call it rock (we know a different genre called "rock").

Do I expect everybody to like the music? No.
Do I expect everybody to like the lyrics? Obviously not. Many will complain it is repetitive.

Some would complain that there are people leading the music.

But to say that the song does not glorify God, or that the music is inappropriate for those worshipping by singing the song is, IMHO, anti-Christian (literally, against Christians).

BTW...Christian Rock is a different genre (Demon Slayer, Skilled, Red, Thousand Foot Krutch, Cutlass, etc).

John of Japan · Wednesday at 3:22 PM

JonC said:
I think you mistook my meaning (I worded it poorly).

The correction should read "Correction - to YOU the music did not glorify God".

That's semantically what you said before.

JonC said:
We cannot say whether the music we dislike or suffer with glorifies God. We can onky say that we cannot worship with that music. Just because the music of some cultures hurts my ears (actually, affects me like fingernails on a chalkboard..hurts my brain more than ears) does not mean it hurts God's ears.

I did hear the group. I am not the criteria for determining what pleases God. One person may suffer with loud music while another suffer not being able to hear quite music.

Michal criticized David for worshipping in an undignified manner, all that dancing and banging around. Just like a commoner. Not sure God saw it that way.

Yes, CCM is not rock. It is not the instruments used but how they are played.

By God being glorified I mean God's glory proclaimed in the music and God being truely worshipped by those offering the praise.

I can only respond to what is written in a post (to the words on a screen). That is the trouble with this type of communication.

Please define rock. What are the musical characteristics?

JonC · Wednesday at 3:38 PM

John of Japan said:
That's semantically what you said before.

Please define rock. What are the musical characteristics?

Kinda. I thought you were reading it as the music not glorifying God in your mind (you do not see it as God glorifying) as opposed to God actually being glorified (what I was trying to communicate).

Many traditional hymn music is not Glorifying God to me. But reading the lyrics I know that hymns glorifying God.

Yes, per your definition rock music includes country music, pop, blues, and R&B.

What distinguishes CCM is it's association with pop music (you would say its a sub-category of rock....but who cares what it is called).

I am specifically talking about music in worship, not driving down the road listening to tunes or going to a concert. I am talking about contemporary worship music.

The difference here is twofold - the purpose (congregational worship) and the design (designed to be accessabke to the congregation, both in playing and singing the songs).

Scripture More Accurately · 2025-08-14T05:29:52-0500

David Lamb said:
Although I agree that it could include worship, the chapter is about Christian living generally. He gives examples such as understanding all mysteries and knowledge, giving all his possessions for the benefit of the poor, and giving his body to be burned.

As for the brass and cymbal not being illustrations, surely you don't think Paul was really saying that if he spoke in the way he described, without love, he would actually turn into a brass object, or a cymbal.

Giving one's body to be burned is not an aspect of "Christian living generally." Neither is understanding all mysteries and knowledge--only someone who would have been specially and supernaturally gifted by God would ever have been able to even remotely in a limited way approach that level of understanding of things that is otherwise entirely incapable of being had by any humans through any human means or by any human abilities.

Yes, Paul is using figures of speech in his comparison, but that does not in any way mean that the truths revealed thereby can be discounted or rejected. The Spirit is the ultimate Author of everything in Scripture--His Word is perfect in every way.

Of course, Paul is not saying that someone turns into one of those instruments, etc.

There were no "chapters" or even "verses" in the original as God gave them. 1 Corinthians 13:1 is not some isolated teaching to be taken apart from what else the Spirit has said. In 1 Corinthians 14, the Spirit again inspired Paul to speak about unacceptable uses of musical instruments in his giving us vital teaching about the divinely mandated requirements that everything in corporate worship must be done unto edifying, with charity, and be done decently and in order, etc.

John of Japan · 2025-08-14T09:12:23-0500

JonC said:
Kinda. I thought you were reading it as the music not glorifying God in your mind (you do not see it as God glorifying) as opposed to God actually being glorified (what I was trying to communicate).

Many traditional hymn music is not Glorifying God to me. But reading the lyrics I know that hymns glorifying God.

Yes, per your definition rock music includes country music, pop, blues, and R&B.

What distinguishes CCM is it's association with pop music (you would say its a sub-category of rock....but who cares what it is called).

I am specifically talking about music in worship, not driving down the road listening to tunes or going to a concert. I am talking about contemporary worship music.

The difference here is twofold - the purpose (congregational worship) and the design (designed to be accessabke to the congregation, both in playing and singing the songs).

So, you can't define rock. And again, stop putting words in my mouth. You did it again!!! I have not yet defined rock until this post.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you don't seem to have any music education, though you are pontificating as though you were a musician. Do you play any instrument, or sing in a choir? (Oops, sorry, contemporary churches have abandoned the choir, going to pro musicians on the stage and taking the opportunity to serve in a choir away from the average church member.)

First of all, a definition of rock. It is a genre of pop music with roots in the popular music of the 1950s. The primary instruments used are the drum set, the bass guitar and the electric guitar (usually solid body), though others may be added particularly the keyboard. The musical characteristics are: syncopation (heavy emphasis on the 2nd & 4th of 4/4 time), lots of repetition, loud volume, overly strong electric bass. (This is per a music prof, Frank Garlock, one of the first Christians to write on the genre in The Big Beat, 1971.) It's melody is musically simplistic (no modulation, etc.), and hard rock sometimes abandons the melody. Drum solos and long riffs ("shredding") are common.

Most CCM definitely fits this definition and description. Ed Dobson was one of the first to urge CCM as an evangelistic tool in his book, Starting a Seeker Sensitive Service (1993). He wrote, "We decided on contemporary music (Christian and non-Christian rock) led by a band composed of a lead guitar, bass guitar, synthesizer, piano, and drums..." (p. 26). See the description of rock above.

Why did Dobson abandon hymns? He purposefully adopted the world's music to reach the world. "It is the primary musical language of our target audience" (Ibid.). So he used it to get people to church on a Saturday night, but eventually his whole church went to CCM, abandoning hymns. The thing is, the Bible doesn't say, "Invite them..." but "Go...." Biblical evangelism is going out to the world to reach the world, not just inviting them to church, and certainly not tailoring your church to the lost world. "Love not the world...." The church services, by the way, are not primarily for worship (we should worship all the time), but to train the believers to minister (Eph. 4:11-12).

John of Japan · 2025-08-14T09:14:40-0500

JonC said:
@John of Japan

This is my favorite worship song. You would call it rock (we know a different genre called "rock").

Not really. It doesn't have quite the right backbeat to be rock. It has an interesting double emphasis on the 1 & 3, then the 1nd & 4th notes of 4/4 time.

But it is certainly repetitive, a characteristic of rock. The words are nice, theologically correct. However, they don't hold a candle to the depth and theology of "How Great Thou Art." I mean, one verse, repeated, instead of four? Traditional hymns are much better at teaching theology.

Rather than rock, it is copying the style of the modern pop diva, in my humble but educated opinion.

JonC said:
Do I expect everybody to like the music? No.
Do I expect everybody to like the lyrics? Obviously not. Many will complain it is repetitive.

Some would complain that there are people leading the music.

But to say that the song does not glorify God, or that the music is inappropriate for those worshipping by singing the song is, IMHO, anti-Christian (literally, against Christians).

BTW...Christian Rock is a different genre (Demon Slayer, Skilled, Red, Thousand Foot Krutch, Cutlass, etc).

Those groups are classified as "hard rock," not just rock. There is also soft rock, folk rock, country rock, CCM rock, etc. But they all have the same musical elements.

JonC · 2025-08-14T10:26:41-0500

John of Japan said:
So, you can't define rock. And again, stop putting words in my mouth. You did it again!!! I have not yet defined rock until this post.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you don't seem to have any music education, though you are pontificating as though you were a musician. Do you play any instrument, or sing in a choir? (Oops, sorry, contemporary churches have abandoned the choir, going to pro musicians on the stage and taking the opportunity to serve in a choir away from the average church member.)

First of all, a definition of rock. It is a genre of pop music with roots in the popular music of the 1950s. The primary instruments used are the drum set, the bass guitar and the electric guitar (usually solid body), though others may be added particularly the keyboard. The musical characteristics are: syncopation (heavy emphasis on the 2nd & 4th of 4/4 time), lots of repetition, loud volume, overly strong electric bass. (This is per a music prof, Frank Garlock, one of the first Christians to write on the genre in The Big Beat, 1971.) It's melody is musically simplistic (no modulation, etc.), and hard rock sometimes abandons the melody. Drum solos and long riffs ("shredding") are common.

Most CCM definitely fits this definition and description. Ed Dobson was one of the first to urge CCM as an evangelistic tool in his book, Starting a Seeker Sensitive Service (1993). He wrote, "We decided on contemporary music (Christian and non-Christian rock) led by a band composed of a lead guitar, bass guitar, synthesizer, piano, and drums..." (p. 26). See the description of rock above.

Why did Dobson abandon hymns? He purposefully adopted the world's music to reach the world. "It is the primary musical language of our target audience" (Ibid.). So he used it to get people to church on a Saturday night, but eventually his whole church went to CCM, abandoning hymns. The thing is, the Bible doesn't say, "Invite them..." but "Go...." Biblical evangelism is going out to the world to reach the world, not just inviting them to church, and certainly not tailoring your church to the lost world. "Love not the world...." The church services, by the way, are not primarily for worship (we should worship all the time), but to train the believers to minister (Eph. 4:11-12).

Ahhh....stop putting words in my mouth. I never claimed to be a musician. My education is limited (about 6 years of paino and of course a few music appreciation courses in college).Do you believe that in order to have an opinion about music one must be a formally trained musician?

You are, 9f course, wrong and you should have known better given your background with languages.

Christian Rock is a subcategory of rock music. It is rock music with a Christian theme.

CCM is a broader category that includes the music styles of pop, rock, R&B, acappella, gospel and country.

The Gaither Vocal Band perforns CCM. They wouldn't be confused with Christian Rock.

My answer was to move from your fixation on rock music as too many generas fit in (country music fits your definition, for example) to worship music.

I do not care if a congregation worships with Christian rock, Christian country, spoken word, or hymns. They need to worship in spirit and truth, not adopt music styles they believe are pipious. Christians do not, for example ample, have to get rid of pianos because they are relatively new to Christian worship.

I am grateful that churches abandoned the traditional music accompanying hymns in favor of corporate worship they found uplifting to the members of the congregation. Christians need to worship in an honest manner. Their worship needs to be a genuine expression, not simply following a tradition handed down a couple of centuries. This may be hymns, this may be Christian rock, this may be Contemporary Worship music, this may be Christian country.

You are wrong about the church not being primarily about worship. All we do is an act of worship. This includes discipleship. This includes singing. This includes serving others. This includes uplifting one another. This includes evangelism.

Has God Ordained a certain style for Musical worship?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Moderator

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Moderator

Moderator

Well-Known Member

Moderator

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Moderator