Does anyone really believe Catholics are Christians?

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kiffen:
I think it could be said that probably most Baptists are not Christians given currents Church stats. Maybe we need to look at our own house first.

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But as a Calvinist, wouldn't you believe that makes it GOD'S fault if most Baptist or Catholics aren't Christian? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not a Calvinist but I'm confused why this point is significant.

If a Calvinist believes in double predestination, then yes it is God who chooses which Baptists or Catholics are elect and which ones are not.

I'm not following here. What is so high five about this statement?

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kiffen:
I think it could be said that probably most Baptists are not Christians given currents Church stats. Maybe we need to look at our own house first.

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But as a Calvinist, wouldn't you believe that makes it GOD'S fault if most Baptist or Catholics aren't Christian? </font>[/QUOTE]Gotta blame disobedience on somebody.

Posted by Gold Dragon: Whether any individual Catholic will go to heaven or not is not dependent on their theology but on God's grace.

Hogwash!It is all about theology.
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The very reason God will not recognize many of the religious is because of bad theology.

Yes, some Catholics will be in Heaven. I don't know how many.
I believe G. K. Chesterton will be there, and I look forward to meeting him.

See an article by Ravi Zacharias at www.rzim.org/publications/slicetran.php?sliceid=904
There are many articles about Chesterton on the web.
G. K. Chesterton was one of the greatest Christian apologists of the 20th century. I have read a number of his books and profited thereby.

Karen

Posted by Karen: Yes, some Catholics will be in Heaven.

Do you believe it possible to be saved and remain a catholic? I do not. True salvation and catholic theology are so opposed to each other that I believe it to be impossible to be saved and remain a catholic.

Someone else said "The gospel is in the mass".

Not true!! They aren't even preaching the same Jesus. That is no better than applying the gospel to satan. Do you get saved then??

God will bring all His elect to Salvation.

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Soulman:
Does anyone really believe that the RCC teaches a theology that would allow someone to be saved?

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No, I do not. The same thing can be applied to anyone or group who teaches "faith + works = salvation" </font>[/QUOTE]Isn't it true that any denomination that does not believe in and teach the eternal security of the true believer is teaching a faith + works salvation? They are saved by faith but must work to keep it.

Originally posted by Soulman:
Posted by Gold Dragon: Whether any individual Catholic will go to heaven or not is not dependent on their theology but on God's grace.

Hogwash!It is all about theology.
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The very reason God will not recognize many of the religious is because of bad theology.

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I missed the part of the bible that says

salvation = faith + good theology #1 + good theology #2 + ....

or

salvation = faith + 2 courses in systematic theology

Which theologies are good and required in this framework that you are proposing?

Don't get me wrong I am all about having good biblically based theology. I'm just not so convinced God uses that as some measuring stick to say who is in and who is out of heaven the way we sometimes do.

Paul teaches us to be wary of bad theology which I believe can also be found all over baptist churches. Although we would probably disagree sometimes on which churches and which theologies were bad and which were good.

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
.............
Don't get me wrong I am all about having good biblically based theology. I'm just not so convinced God uses that as some measuring stick to say who is in and who is out of heaven the way we sometimes do.

Paul teaches us to be wary of bad theology which I believe can also be found all over baptist churches. Although we would probably disagree sometimes on which churches and which theologies were bad and which were good. [/QB]

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Good points. I am all in favor of good theology. My pastor, right now, has been writing articles in the church newsletter showing parents how to teach their kids doctrine at home from the 1689 Baptist Confession.
He is fairly Calvinistic. But I have come across a number of Calvinists who think that Calvinism is another name for the Gospel. Some go so far as to wonder if it is possible to be less than a five-pointer (I would guess my pastor is a 4 to a 4.5) and still be truly a Christian.

When I came to Christ, I walked down an aisle and prayed a "sinner's prayer". Then and now I never thought that those two actions were what saved me.
Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour because of His shed blood on the cross for my sins.
And I had hardly ever heard of Jack Hyles before the BB. However, there are probably a number of people who would not think that I am really a Christian because they would not be able to get past my "easy-believism" of walking an aisle and praying a prayer.
So sometimes the thoughts we assign to other Christians, INCLUDING sometimes, just maybe, Catholics, may be different than reality.
(And yes, much of Catholic theology is wrong. No argument there from me.)

Karen

Posted by OldRegular:Isn't it true that any denomination that does not believe in and teach the eternal security of the true believer is teaching a faith + works salvation? They are saved by faith but must work to keep it.

My friend. If you can't do anything to earn it, you can't do anything to lose it. Salvation is a gift from God.

Posted by Gold Dragon: Paul teaches us to be wary of bad theology which I believe can also be found all over baptist churches.

I agree there is mostly bad theology out there. That is where all the religion comes in. You say it is wide spread throughout baptist churches. That is correct. Alot of them are independant and that causes alot of diversity.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Salvation IS free. But we must seek God in order to find Him. That means cutting through the muck of religion.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Here is one for all you Calvanists that don't believe people can be persuaded to accept Christ.

Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

But as a Calvinist, wouldn't you believe that makes it GOD'S fault if most Baptist or Catholics aren't Christian?

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Oh, Please All who refuse to embrace Jesus Christ are held responsible for their own rejection. If you going to attack Calvinism, Read some books by Calvinists

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Salvation IS free. But we must seek God in order to find Him. That means cutting through the muck of religion.

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The Problem with that Statement is that most Roman Catholics would agree with you since Semi Pelagian theology says we cooperate with God to be saved. I don't really see that much difference in what you are saying and the Catholic Catechism. Reformation theology however says it is by Grace we are saved and not by our seeking.

Here is one for all you Calvanists that don't believe people can be persuaded to accept Christ.

Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

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Don't know of any Calvinists that have any problems with Titus 1:9. The Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to convert sinners. I am involved in a Prison ministry and preached the other night at the Prison and 3 Prisoners made professions of faith in Christ. I don't believe I had anything to do with it but the Holy Spirit gave them the New Birth. Praise God!!! Calvinist bashers please read some Calvinist books.

Originally posted by Soulman:
I know there is alot of talk about catholics who get saved. Forget about the exceptions of the ones that hear the gospel for a moment.

Does anyone really believe that the RCC teaches a theology that would allow someone to be saved?

Do they even worship the same Jesus as Christians do?

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I have actually met many Catholics who I believe are born again Christians who have a relationship with Christ, it is true that most Catholics that are saved are saved in spite of the Catholic Church and its teachings, and not because of them.

The problem is that they like Christians in other denominatitions are still wrapped in the tradition of their churches, thats why many don't leave.

Most Catholics I have met however, don't have the foggiest idea about what redemption is, and what the atoning work of Christ on the cross means for them.

They simply think, if I do enough good works, and go to mass enough, and my good works out weigh my bad, then I will be saved - I pray God will save these many deceived Catholics.

On another note, if I were to say though, that if someone mixes works at all with salvation they are not saved, then I would have to say many Protestants are not saved.

Because there are many protestants who say works, while they do not merit or earn our salvation, are still required for salvation.

I used to be nieve when I was young to think only Catholics mixed works with Salvation, but Protestants do it as well, they just explain it differently, it is still the same end result.

IFBReformer

"Like mother like daughter"--the origin is still the same. Most "protestants" came out of Rome. If Rome has no authority, her daughters have no authority; if Rome has the authority, protestants are defrocked schismatics without authority. Then there is the Bride of Christ.

Satan himself is become an angel of light--beware the wolves dressed like lambs.

Selah,

Bro. James

Originally posted by Bro. James:
"Like mother like daughter"--the origin is still the same. Satan himself is become an angel of light--beware the wolves dressed like lambs.

Selah,

Bro. James

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I may be wrong, but I believe IfbReformer was including Baptists in his use of the word Protestants.

True Baptists--Real Baptists, have never been a part of "The Protestant Reformation". In fact, our Baptist forefathers were bitterly persecuted by Luther, Calvin and others--mostly about baptismal practices and infant baptism.

No, indeed, True Baptists are not "Protestants".

There was a recent PBS documentary on Martin Luther. He was given praise for being a champion of "freedom of conscience"--even leading to the semblance of religious freedom in the U.S.

Such praise is misdirected.

Selah,

Bro. James

Originally posted by Bro. James:
True Baptists--Real Baptists, have never been a part of "The Protestant Reformation". In fact, our Baptist forefathers were bitterly persecuted by Luther, Calvin and others--mostly about baptismal practices and infant baptism.

No, indeed, True Baptists are not "Protestants".

There was a recent PBS documentary on Martin Luther. He was given praise for being a champion of "freedom of conscience"--even leading to the semblance of religious freedom in the U.S.

Such praise is misdirected.

Selah,

Bro. James

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I'm not saying that "True Baptists" are Protestants. You are free to believe they are not.

I was just trying to clarify what IfbReformer meant by Protestants.

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
I was just trying to clarify what IfbReformer meant by Protestants.

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What most people mean - folks who call themselves Christians who are not Catholic. In common usage, it's an "us and them" term - like Jew and Gentile.

Anyway, I agree with IfbReformer's post. I know Catholics who are saved "in spite of" their church, and plenty of non-Catholics who are lost in spite of their church.

Which part of this definition does Baptist not fit?

A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers.

The premise that Christians can be divided into two groups, Catholic and Protestant, is the basis for many misleading/false conclusions.

If one lives in Salt Lake City, the majority of those called "Christian" would also be called Latter Day Saints(others would say "Mormon"). They have millions of adherents and lots of "political clout"--some outside of Utah.

The Word of God says: "The disciples were called "Christian" first at Antioch." May we use this paradigm for a present-day understanding of what a "Christian " might be? A word study of "disciple" may be necessary.

Selah,

Bro. James