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Does anyone really believe Catholics are Christians?
- Thread starter Soulman
- Start date
Charles Meadows
New Member
It is impossible for people to be saved who remain a catholic, believe their teachings, worship their false christ, partake in the blasphemy of the mass, trust in the infallability of a man or base their salvation on good works.
Remember Soulman that all that is required is faith. "Catholics" are a heterogenous group. The catholics I know that I would consider to be "saved" view themselves as adherents to a denomination of Christianity, recognizing the importance of Christ over everything else. Their denomination may not be the most correct, but that does not render their faith ineffective (unless you doubt that faith can save).
And I have a bit of a problem with your "false Christ" of catholicism. The Christ of catholicism was born of a virgin, died for sins, rose bodily, and will return again. To say He is a false Christ borders on blasphemy.
That being said I would agree that the "hard core" catholics who trust more in Mary and the pope then in Christ are in trouble.
Remember Soulman that all that is required is faith. "Catholics" are a heterogenous group. The catholics I know that I would consider to be "saved" view themselves as adherents to a denomination of Christianity, recognizing the importance of Christ over everything else. Their denomination may not be the most correct, but that does not render their faith ineffective (unless you doubt that faith can save).
And I have a bit of a problem with your "false Christ" of catholicism. The Christ of catholicism was born of a virgin, died for sins, rose bodily, and will return again. To say He is a false Christ borders on blasphemy.
That being said I would agree that the "hard core" catholics who trust more in Mary and the pope then in Christ are in trouble.
IfbReformer
New Member
I may be wrong, but I believe IfbReformer was including Baptists in his use of the word Protestants. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes I was including Baptist under protestants and yes I am aware of the debate within Baptist circles about this. It is true that Baptists were persecuted by Protestants, but you must also remember that many of those who became Baptist ministers were once themselves Catholics before they came out and left the church.
Baptists were the radical reformers, while those like Luther and Calvin were magisterial reformers.
I am also aware of various groups such as the Waldensians and Ambrosians and many others. I do believe there have always been those who stood against the Baptist church.
But I don't want to hijack this thread about Baptist Bridism, and neither should others, let keep it to the Catholic question.
So I will clarify my remarks that I believe even protestants and many Baptists include works in salvation as well, they just explain it differently.
IFBReformer
IfbReformer
New Member
Charles Meadows,
I agree completely with what you have said. It is the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses that indeed preach a false Christ.
The problem with the Catholics is they pile so much man-made garbage in with the true Christ of the Bible, that is hard for many Catholics to dig through it all and find the true Christ, but as you and I have correctly pointed out, some do find him.
IFBReformer
Glossing with false premises--
True Baptists were not radical nor were they reformers. People who came out of Rome and went with the True Baptists were scripturally baptized(not re-baptized) and added to the assembly--just like since day one--circa A.D. 33. This incurred the wrath of Rome, Wittenburg, Paris and Canterbury. The crux of this matter is in Mt. 16:18 and the correct interpretation thereof.
Rome stands or falls on this scripture--so do her daughters.
Selah,
Bro. James
True Baptists were not radical nor were they reformers. People who came out of Rome and went with the True Baptists were scripturally baptized(not re-baptized) and added to the assembly--just like since day one--circa A.D. 33. This incurred the wrath of Rome, Wittenburg, Paris and Canterbury. The crux of this matter is in Mt. 16:18 and the correct interpretation thereof.
Rome stands or falls on this scripture--so do her daughters.
Selah,
Bro. James
T
TexasSky
Guest
I take Catholics on a case by case basis.
I do that with Baptists too - and I am one.
Churched or unchurched - I believe that every true Christian has one moment in their life that they can point to and say, "THIS is when I met Christ," and it is NOT when they walked down the aisle, NOT when they were baptised. Those things are after.
Mine was in the middle of the night, in a bedroom in Abilene, Texas when the Holy Spirit reminded me of the words that had been spoken to me earlier by a wonderful Christian man and, in a step of faith that I did not understand, I told Christ that I didn't really understand how He could be in someone's heart, or why He loved "people he didn't know," but that I believed my friend when he told me that Jesus loved me, and I wanted Jesus to know I loved Him back, and that I wanted him "in my heart."
A light went off in my life that moment. In an instant I went from, "confused, but willing to reach out," to "certain and positive". In that one moment a peace came over me and it seemed as if the very air around me became brighter - even though there was still darkness in the room. In that moment there was NO doubt. There was understanding, and with that understanding came three things: A knowledge that no matter what came in life, I was loved and protected - though not necessarily in a way humans think of protecting; A hungry need to apologize for sin, though I really didn't even understand what a lot of the ten commandments meant at that time. I could quote em, I just didn't "get" them, and most of all a burning need to tell the entire world what I had discovered.
Apparently the change in me was instantaneous also. The very next morning my best friend asked me what was different, and she asked it in a, "I want whatever it is," way. So I shared Christ with her. You know what? You don't NEED a Ph.D., to witness to for Christ. You just have to love someone enough to say, "Let me tell you how to find joy."
One of my gifts is discernment. I didn't have a name for it until a theologian put one to it, but I have a name for it now. Sometimes as I go through life, I will meet someone who talks the talk, and seems to walk the walk, but something just is "wrong." I know, deep in my gut, that they aren't saved. It isn't "judging" their Christianity, because they haven't done anything to make me feel judgmental about them, it is just that there is no "light of Christ" from them. When that happens, I'll sit down and say, "Hey, share your testimony with me. When did you meet Christ." I get back, "I was baptized when I was 10." Well, that's awesome, but it wasn't what I asked. I want to know, when did YOU meet Christ. I get back, "I was raised in the Bapist Church, I've been a Christian my whole life." Excuse me? >> Isn't that what we knock the Catholics for? ....
I find that such people never have a remorse either. True Christians may not confess to men, but they have remorse. The questionable Christians just don't regret their sin, they justify it.
On the flip side, sometimes I'll be asked to talk to someone who has some major sin in their life, and as I start to talk to them, I'll feel a tug of the Holy Spirit in them, despite that sin. And when we start to talk about the love of God, most of them break down and cry. Most of them feel a tremendous remorse for disappointing a God they love so dearly. So, I'll ask THEM for a testimony. I get back - the moment God changed their life. And if I gently ask, "So, how did this (drug addiction, affair, name any sin) happen," I get true confession of pulling away from God.
I think I love it the most when a kid raised and baptised in the church who really doesn't know the Lord comes back years later and says, "When you see (some Christian who hung in there) tell them thank you for never giving up," and find out they meant that there was a Christian who kept praying for their salvation and kept witnessing to them, even though the world thought they were saved because that Christian knew better.
Well, I've met a few Catholics who can tell the minute they met Christ, and they speak with real concern about the fact that so many Catholics don't have that moment. They worry as much about their infant baptisms and their confirmations as we worry about them doing it.
I just wonder, do we worry enough about the "ritualistic moments" in our own churches. You don't have to work in a church long to know that a large number of "confessions of faith" during a Vacation Bible School, or just after a major musical, or just after the most popular kid in the church confessed are "not wanting to be the only kid in the youth group who isn't baptised."
So, we have to keep praying.
Have to keep teaching.
Have to keep listening to God within us, looking for God within others.
I do that with Baptists too - and I am one.
Churched or unchurched - I believe that every true Christian has one moment in their life that they can point to and say, "THIS is when I met Christ," and it is NOT when they walked down the aisle, NOT when they were baptised. Those things are after.
Mine was in the middle of the night, in a bedroom in Abilene, Texas when the Holy Spirit reminded me of the words that had been spoken to me earlier by a wonderful Christian man and, in a step of faith that I did not understand, I told Christ that I didn't really understand how He could be in someone's heart, or why He loved "people he didn't know," but that I believed my friend when he told me that Jesus loved me, and I wanted Jesus to know I loved Him back, and that I wanted him "in my heart."
A light went off in my life that moment. In an instant I went from, "confused, but willing to reach out," to "certain and positive". In that one moment a peace came over me and it seemed as if the very air around me became brighter - even though there was still darkness in the room. In that moment there was NO doubt. There was understanding, and with that understanding came three things: A knowledge that no matter what came in life, I was loved and protected - though not necessarily in a way humans think of protecting; A hungry need to apologize for sin, though I really didn't even understand what a lot of the ten commandments meant at that time. I could quote em, I just didn't "get" them, and most of all a burning need to tell the entire world what I had discovered.
Apparently the change in me was instantaneous also. The very next morning my best friend asked me what was different, and she asked it in a, "I want whatever it is," way. So I shared Christ with her. You know what? You don't NEED a Ph.D., to witness to for Christ. You just have to love someone enough to say, "Let me tell you how to find joy."
One of my gifts is discernment. I didn't have a name for it until a theologian put one to it, but I have a name for it now. Sometimes as I go through life, I will meet someone who talks the talk, and seems to walk the walk, but something just is "wrong." I know, deep in my gut, that they aren't saved. It isn't "judging" their Christianity, because they haven't done anything to make me feel judgmental about them, it is just that there is no "light of Christ" from them. When that happens, I'll sit down and say, "Hey, share your testimony with me. When did you meet Christ." I get back, "I was baptized when I was 10." Well, that's awesome, but it wasn't what I asked. I want to know, when did YOU meet Christ. I get back, "I was raised in the Bapist Church, I've been a Christian my whole life." Excuse me? >> Isn't that what we knock the Catholics for? ....
I find that such people never have a remorse either. True Christians may not confess to men, but they have remorse. The questionable Christians just don't regret their sin, they justify it.
On the flip side, sometimes I'll be asked to talk to someone who has some major sin in their life, and as I start to talk to them, I'll feel a tug of the Holy Spirit in them, despite that sin. And when we start to talk about the love of God, most of them break down and cry. Most of them feel a tremendous remorse for disappointing a God they love so dearly. So, I'll ask THEM for a testimony. I get back - the moment God changed their life. And if I gently ask, "So, how did this (drug addiction, affair, name any sin) happen," I get true confession of pulling away from God.
I think I love it the most when a kid raised and baptised in the church who really doesn't know the Lord comes back years later and says, "When you see (some Christian who hung in there) tell them thank you for never giving up," and find out they meant that there was a Christian who kept praying for their salvation and kept witnessing to them, even though the world thought they were saved because that Christian knew better.
Well, I've met a few Catholics who can tell the minute they met Christ, and they speak with real concern about the fact that so many Catholics don't have that moment. They worry as much about their infant baptisms and their confirmations as we worry about them doing it.
I just wonder, do we worry enough about the "ritualistic moments" in our own churches. You don't have to work in a church long to know that a large number of "confessions of faith" during a Vacation Bible School, or just after a major musical, or just after the most popular kid in the church confessed are "not wanting to be the only kid in the youth group who isn't baptised."
So, we have to keep praying.
Have to keep teaching.
Have to keep listening to God within us, looking for God within others.
Charles Meadows
New Member
I take Catholics on a case by case basis.
That's probably the best stance to have.
As an ex-catholic I tell tell you that there is great heterogeneity. Some catholics are staunch ritualists, believing that Mary and rosaries will save them. Others are Christains who go to a catholic church because that's familiar to them and they fell comfortable in that church. What matters is whether or not one has a personal relationship with Christ.
We cannot say "well you go to a church that teaches this so you cannot be saved." If this were the case then faith would not be sufficient to save someone since they would also have to go to the right building to be saved.
That's probably the best stance to have.
As an ex-catholic I tell tell you that there is great heterogeneity. Some catholics are staunch ritualists, believing that Mary and rosaries will save them. Others are Christains who go to a catholic church because that's familiar to them and they fell comfortable in that church. What matters is whether or not one has a personal relationship with Christ.
We cannot say "well you go to a church that teaches this so you cannot be saved." If this were the case then faith would not be sufficient to save someone since they would also have to go to the right building to be saved.
Debby in Philly
Active Member
I once heard a definition of Catholics, intended to be humorous, as that of "Christians who believe too much." Some truth to that....
Those Catholics who are saved will be greeted by Christ with the words "you didn't have to do all that..."
Those Catholics who are saved will be greeted by Christ with the words "you didn't have to do all that..."
T
TexasSky
Guest
Even with as many mistakes as the Catholic church has made over the centuries, I have a hard time condemning them when I step back and look at how many nations they were the first to send missionaries to or the times they got the message right.
Salvation and "Church" membership are mutually exclusive--contrary to the "holy see".
One could join every church in town and still go to hell. Salvation is of the Lord. He is also the one who does the seeking and calling. Man is his depraved condition has no real inclination for true deity. He will certainly follow false deity--usually "the self".
"Noone comes to the Father unless The Spirit draws him...". It is difficult to believe that The Holy Spirit would call lost sheep and then leave them in the ditch of pagan idolatry. See also: Ephesians 2:8-10.
Selah,
Bro. James
One could join every church in town and still go to hell. Salvation is of the Lord. He is also the one who does the seeking and calling. Man is his depraved condition has no real inclination for true deity. He will certainly follow false deity--usually "the self".
"Noone comes to the Father unless The Spirit draws him...". It is difficult to believe that The Holy Spirit would call lost sheep and then leave them in the ditch of pagan idolatry. See also: Ephesians 2:8-10.
Selah,
Bro. James
The condemnation:
John 3:19, "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, becasue their deeds were evil."
See also: Matthew 7:22-23, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Salvation is not of works nor is perserverance. The Lord knows them that are His.
Selah,
Bro. James-
John 3:19, "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, becasue their deeds were evil."
See also: Matthew 7:22-23, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Salvation is not of works nor is perserverance. The Lord knows them that are His.
Selah,
Bro. James-
I believe Texas sky, Mr. Meadows, & Debby have hit the nail on the head. Several years ago I went to a Mass to satisfy my curiosity & found it quite solemn with mucho praise to Christ, mucho prayer, praise to the Holy Spirit, and no mention of Mary. But this was just one small parish. The priest still had the mistaken belief of celibacy for priests & other RCC officials, and the Pope's word was still law. But in all honesty I hafta say the majority of the worshippers there that eve were Christians. I ALMOST felt I'd walked into a "Holy Roller" service.(No, Dorothy, that aint the church bowling team.)
I must agree that their Christianity is on a case-by-case basis and that many are saved DESPITE the RCC org. But do I believe in all their "stuff"? Absitively, posolutely NOT!
I must agree that their Christianity is on a case-by-case basis and that many are saved DESPITE the RCC org. But do I believe in all their "stuff"? Absitively, posolutely NOT!
Posted by robycop3: Several years ago I went to a Mass to satisfy my curiosity & found it quite solemn with mucho praise to Christ, mucho prayer, praise to the Holy Spirit, and no mention of Mary.I must agree that their Christianity is on a case-by-case basis and that many are saved DESPITE the RCC org. But do I believe in all their "stuff"? Absitively, posolutely NOT!
Hooked on phonics?
Anyone can worship with sincerity and fervency. Is that enough?
Romans 10:2
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
2 Corinthians 11:14-16 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Bearing in mind that the RCC is a false religion the membership has choices to make. Shall they seek truth or follow their religion blindly?
Luke 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
The RCC teaches of another Christ who lives in a little box in back of the alter in the form of wafers and wine. They re-sacrifice Him thousands of times a day throughout the world. They think themselves to be worshipping the Jesus of the bible. But without seeking the truth they continue to worship this false God.
During worship God seeks those who worship Him to do so in spirit and TRUTH!
John 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Ephesians 4:4-6 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
This one God is not present within the walls of the RCC. All the peoples sincerity and praise is not being received by the one true God.
Hooked on phonics?
Anyone can worship with sincerity and fervency. Is that enough?
Romans 10:2
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
2 Corinthians 11:14-16 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Bearing in mind that the RCC is a false religion the membership has choices to make. Shall they seek truth or follow their religion blindly?
Luke 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
The RCC teaches of another Christ who lives in a little box in back of the alter in the form of wafers and wine. They re-sacrifice Him thousands of times a day throughout the world. They think themselves to be worshipping the Jesus of the bible. But without seeking the truth they continue to worship this false God.
During worship God seeks those who worship Him to do so in spirit and TRUTH!
John 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Ephesians 4:4-6 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
This one God is not present within the walls of the RCC. All the peoples sincerity and praise is not being received by the one true God.
Amen to the last post.
Curiosity is part of what beguiled Eve in the garden.
It is always better to flee to The Rock, than to flirt with sin--and do not look back--remember Lot's wife.
Satan himself is become an angel of light. Only God is able to deal with Satan.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump--the holy see is corrupt--always has been. Why do some keep trying to make something holy out of it? Pray for those who are caught up in it--as well as all false religion.
Selah,
Bro. James
Curiosity is part of what beguiled Eve in the garden.
It is always better to flee to The Rock, than to flirt with sin--and do not look back--remember Lot's wife.
Satan himself is become an angel of light. Only God is able to deal with Satan.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump--the holy see is corrupt--always has been. Why do some keep trying to make something holy out of it? Pray for those who are caught up in it--as well as all false religion.
Selah,
Bro. James
I was raised Baptists and was taught all Catholics were unsaved and were in a cult. I believed it and never did I look at the Catholic Church objectively.
A few months ago I was attending a weeklong job-training seminar and I carried my Bible and was re-reading John for the umpteenth time and once again I came across the infamous chapter 6. A chapter that I always blew off as some metaphor, but this time I couldn’t blow it off as easily. Chapter 6 was on my mind both day and night, literally day and night. I asked my Pastor and Associate Pastor for their respective views and neither could give me a sound explanation without looking up what David Hunt had to say about it.
This got me to really thinking, “Why can’t anyone give me THEIR view of chapter 6?” Why does two educated Pastors (Bob Jones and Pensacola), have to go to David Hunt to give me an answer!
How much other CRAP have I been feed: KJVO, all women should wear dresses, you gotta knock on them doors every Saturday to get on God’s good side and I could go on and on…
“But, Catholic priests are child molesters!” Well, I know of three Baptists ministers that have been convicted of molesting their own children or their adoptive children.
I have since been praying fervently about how I should view chapter 6 and IF I should go to a Catholic Mass and ask a Priest their views of all the views I have been feed and then make my own mind up with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I have a feeling that a Priest would have an answer and wouldn’t have to go and dig in his library for an answer of someone else’s view.
Not all, but a lot of Baptists that I notice during communion take the bread and juice in a flippant manner, “it takes too long!” or some just slip out the back door. It’s just another Sunday to them.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
My exposure to the Catholic version of the Eucharist naturally drew me to John 6. Ever since then, communion has been a much more intimate and sacred act as I make a habit of meditating on this chapter before I partake of it.
I consider transubstantiation and consubstantiation to be overanalysis of the truly powerful and intimate mystery of the Eucharist that symbolic communion completely strips away.
John Ch. 6,"...eat my flesh and drink my blood...".
And what are the magical words which literally change the flour into flesh and and the wine into blood?
If this is literal and not metaphorical, there is a priest other than Jesus which is between man and God. This is completely contrary to the plain teaching of the Word of God. It is perfectly compatible with the commandments of men, which is exactly what it is.
Another dumb question: How come the priest gets drunk when he drinks too much blood? Does not the priest drink it all--the laity get the wafer?
There is something "skewed" about all of this.
"We are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest anyone can boast." Eph. Ch. 2.
Selah,
Bro. James
[ June 13, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
And what are the magical words which literally change the flour into flesh and and the wine into blood?
If this is literal and not metaphorical, there is a priest other than Jesus which is between man and God. This is completely contrary to the plain teaching of the Word of God. It is perfectly compatible with the commandments of men, which is exactly what it is.
Another dumb question: How come the priest gets drunk when he drinks too much blood? Does not the priest drink it all--the laity get the wafer?
There is something "skewed" about all of this.
"We are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest anyone can boast." Eph. Ch. 2.
Selah,
Bro. James
[ June 13, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
I don’t know Bro. James, how did God create the Heavens and the Earth? Well, God spoke, “Let there be…”
I have no clue and even the Jews that heard Jesus’ sermon (which wasn’t a parable) in Chapter 6 also didn’t understand and the Jews even thought it to be outrageous in Vs. 52. Jesus didn’t try to clarify Himself, but He repeated Himself yet again!
Now IF Jesus was trying to convey something different than what He just preached about, why didn’t Jesus clarify Himself and try to better explain His sermon about His flesh and blood in another way? I mean the Jews and even some of His disciples were confused.
Vs. 60, Jesus’ disciples are saying how hard the saying is and who can hear it. Jesus even asks if His sermon OFFENDS them….Well, duh, eating flesh…yes, it did offend them, but Jesus didn’t try and clarify Himself and many left His side that day Vs. 66.
I agree with His disciples, chapter 6 is a hard chapter to try and wrap your mind around! What gets me is that Jesus KNEW this was a hard saying and that His sermon offended some and that many would leave Him that day, BUT Jesus did not sugar coat the sermon, He did not try and explain what He meant in another way.
Again Chapter 6 was a sermon Jesus taught in the Temple, was this literal or metaphorical? I can’t answer that. Why would Jews be OFFENDED and leave His side and walk with Jesus no more IF His sermon was supposed to be taken metaphorical? It all makes no sense.
I wasn’t aware the Priest gets drunk. I thought the laity gets to partake in both the wafer and the wine.
You saying the Priests gets drunk at the end of the Mass to finish off the wine?
The Pope that just died wanted to elevate Mary
to the status of Co-Redemptrix...did you all happen to think of that? I don't believe someone can be saved if they think of anyone else except Jesus Christ as Saviour and have knowledge of sins forgiven, both past and future.
We are saved by grace, remember?
If you go to confession, you couldn't be saved.
to the status of Co-Redemptrix...did you all happen to think of that? I don't believe someone can be saved if they think of anyone else except Jesus Christ as Saviour and have knowledge of sins forgiven, both past and future.
We are saved by grace, remember?
If you go to confession, you couldn't be saved.