JonathanDT
New Member
Catholic doctrine would agree with 1,2,3,5. They would agree with 4 too, except for your definition of "and Him alone." What verse says that if you believe in faith + works you are not saved?
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Does anyone really believe Catholics are Christians?
- Thread starter Soulman
- Start date
Soulman
"What are you saying mioque? That the KJV isn't the word of God? Be careful. Read your niv for all I care. "
"
What I am saying is that folks like me (for whom English is a second, third, or fourth language) are suspicious of folks who claim to have in English their own special supertranslation that is better than anything we will ever have....
We prefer to study a Bible in our own language, or in the original languages instead of English.
So no the NIV doesn't cut it either....
"What are you saying mioque? That the KJV isn't the word of God? Be careful. Read your niv for all I care. "
"
What I am saying is that folks like me (for whom English is a second, third, or fourth language) are suspicious of folks who claim to have in English their own special supertranslation that is better than anything we will ever have....
We prefer to study a Bible in our own language, or in the original languages instead of English.
So no the NIV doesn't cut it either....
You are absolutely correct. Catholics believe the whole process of salvation begins and ends with God and is by grace through faith. They have a different way of expressing what that faith looks like, but it is still faith!
Catholics are accused of adding to faith. Faith plus the church, or faith plus sacraments.
Fundamental Baptists do the same thing. They believe that "asking for forgiveness by praying a prayer" saves them. Sounds alot like a work to me. Faith plus "my prayer."
Posted by Mioque: What I am saying is that folks like me (for whom English is a second, third, or fourth language) are suspicious of folks who claim to have in English their own special supertranslation that is better than anything we will ever have....
I never claimed to have a supertranslation. I prefer the KJV. I also believe that with preservation God preserves His word in all languages.
Posted by JonathanDT: What verse says that if you believe in faith + works you are not saved?
Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Works are a result of our faith. Not a means to salvation. If you could do anything other than believe, why did Jesus go to the cross. Didn't Jesus pay it all?
Posted by Paul33: Catholics believe the whole process of salvation begins and ends with God and is by grace through faith. They have a different way of expressing what that faith looks like, but it is still faith!
Catholics are accused of adding to faith. Faith plus the church, or faith plus sacraments.
With catholicisim it does not start and end with grace through faith in God. It does not take God's word as it's final authority. Catholicisim is loaded with man made tradition that actually supercedes the scriptures. They pray to Mary and dead saints' to intercede for them when the bible is clear that no man comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. They seek forgiveness of sins through priests rather than going directly to Christ. They do pennance to atone or pay for sins. They do a whole lot more than trust in grace through faith in God.
Posted by Paul33: Fundamental Baptists do the same thing. They believe that "asking for forgiveness by praying a prayer" saves them. Sounds alot like a work to me. Faith plus "my prayer."
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
How would you suggest going to God other than by prayer? We must go to Christ to obtain forgiveness of our sins' in order to be saved. It is an act of faith to follow the scriptures. It is not works. If it sounds like works to you, you don't understand what works are.
I never claimed to have a supertranslation. I prefer the KJV. I also believe that with preservation God preserves His word in all languages.
Posted by JonathanDT: What verse says that if you believe in faith + works you are not saved?
Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Works are a result of our faith. Not a means to salvation. If you could do anything other than believe, why did Jesus go to the cross. Didn't Jesus pay it all?
Posted by Paul33: Catholics believe the whole process of salvation begins and ends with God and is by grace through faith. They have a different way of expressing what that faith looks like, but it is still faith!
Catholics are accused of adding to faith. Faith plus the church, or faith plus sacraments.
With catholicisim it does not start and end with grace through faith in God. It does not take God's word as it's final authority. Catholicisim is loaded with man made tradition that actually supercedes the scriptures. They pray to Mary and dead saints' to intercede for them when the bible is clear that no man comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. They seek forgiveness of sins through priests rather than going directly to Christ. They do pennance to atone or pay for sins. They do a whole lot more than trust in grace through faith in God.
Posted by Paul33: Fundamental Baptists do the same thing. They believe that "asking for forgiveness by praying a prayer" saves them. Sounds alot like a work to me. Faith plus "my prayer."
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
How would you suggest going to God other than by prayer? We must go to Christ to obtain forgiveness of our sins' in order to be saved. It is an act of faith to follow the scriptures. It is not works. If it sounds like works to you, you don't understand what works are.
JonathanDT
New Member
You didn't answer my question. Where does it say that anyone who believes in faith + works isn't saved? It says that faith saves us, but it doesn't say that believing works are required for salvation nullifies your salvation.
yeshua4me2
New Member
The Catholic Church is not Christian, for instance they use their own special 10 commandments missing number 2, and splitting number 10 in two parts. also the catholic catacism says they are a different faith than christianity (by means of the continuing revalation of the pope who can change doctrine). catholics have doctrines that PRECLUDE Jesus. transubstantation is esencailly canibalism. bowing down and praying to idols (there is even a catholic idol for selling you house just bury in the fron yard and say the majic words. the two faiths are historically and theologically different, take for instance how the catholics persecuted the ana-baptists (the precursor to modern Baptists; ana-baptist=another baptism or Believers baptism). the first recorded church (ana-baptist) is in syria in the year 212 ad, about the same time as the heretical baptismal regeneration (which is what saves in most denominations, not faith.). the followers of john the baptist (who then followed Christ) organized it. catholicism is a pagen religeon and should not be considered Christian. i can provide ample sources if needed. the history of the catholic church should be enough to prove they are not christian. Do not confuse this with ex-catholics being saved, all kinds-of "ex's" can be saved (i.e. ex-adulterers, ex-murders). so there will be lots of ex-catholics in heaven (like me). there is no surity of salvation to the catholic.
thank you and God bless
ps. if i rambled i'm sorry kids bothering me in the backgound.
thank you and God bless
ps. if i rambled i'm sorry kids bothering me in the backgound.
yeshua4me2
New Member
oh and Grace saves Faith does not.
if faith saved evolutionists would make it cuz tey got more faith (open-eyed acceptance) than christians, just faith in the wrong person (namely themselves)
if faith saved evolutionists would make it cuz tey got more faith (open-eyed acceptance) than christians, just faith in the wrong person (namely themselves)
JonathanDT
New Member
Wow, that's some serious revisionist history you have there. Let's see the part of this Catholic catechism that says they are not Christian.
So since the Catholics aren't Christian, was there no Church at all between the time of the early church fathers and Luther? Because for those 1300 years or so, the Catholic church was THE church of Christ, with no alternatives. Sure there were divisions within the Catholic church, but all Christians were Catholic. I would love to see reputable sources saying otherwise. If you would like a good history of the Christian Church that is a good read, The Story of Christianity by Justo Gonzalez is an excellent book.
Also, before you slam the history of the Catholic Church, remember that the Protestant church hasn't always been the pinnacle of righteousness it should have been.
So since the Catholics aren't Christian, was there no Church at all between the time of the early church fathers and Luther? Because for those 1300 years or so, the Catholic church was THE church of Christ, with no alternatives. Sure there were divisions within the Catholic church, but all Christians were Catholic. I would love to see reputable sources saying otherwise. If you would like a good history of the Christian Church that is a good read, The Story of Christianity by Justo Gonzalez is an excellent book.
Also, before you slam the history of the Catholic Church, remember that the Protestant church hasn't always been the pinnacle of righteousness it should have been.
You are kidding Jonathan, aren,t you? All Christians were catholic until Luther? Talk about revisionist history. Ever heard of the Monatists, Donatists, Paulicans, Albigensians, Waldensians? None of them were part of the catholic church and yet I would venture to say that many of them were born again christians.
yeshua4me2
New Member
catholic catechism spells out catholic doctrine....the doctrine in not christian, it is pagan. and the ana-baptists were hunted since the first appearence of batismal regeneration in 212 ad.
There is much about the Catholic tradition that is man-made. There are misinterpretations of Scripture.
The same can be said about every single denomination.
There are practicing Catholics who really do understand the meaning of what the Catholic church teaches and are regenerated.
There are practicing Baptists who really do understand the meaning of what the Baptist church teaches and are regenerated.
And there are many of both who are lost and going to hell.
The same can be said about every single denomination.
There are practicing Catholics who really do understand the meaning of what the Catholic church teaches and are regenerated.
There are practicing Baptists who really do understand the meaning of what the Baptist church teaches and are regenerated.
And there are many of both who are lost and going to hell.
JonathanDT
New Member
Garpier, read your history again my friend. The Monatatists were a group of heretics (which Tertullian eventually joined). The Donatists were a division within the Catholic church (though eventually they were completely separated and died out). I've never heard of the Paulicans, but from what I can find they were also heretics. I don't remember much about the Albigensians, but once again, from what I can find they were also heretics (Denied the Trinity). You are right about the Waldensians, they were forerunners of the Reformation. Still though, that leaves a rather large gap with nothing but the Roman Catholic Church. Unless you'd like to argue for the Greek Orthodox Church...
JonathanDT
New Member
Mind copying some of those anti-Christian segments of the Catholic Catechism?
Posted by JonathanDT: You didn't answer my question. Where does it say that anyone who believes in faith + works isn't saved?
Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The verse plainly states NOT of works! How can this be made any plainer?
Posted by JonathanDT: Let's see the part of this Catholic catechism that says they are not Christian.
Obviously there is no reference to catholics being christian in the catachisim as they believe they are the only true christians.
Posted by JonathanDT: So since the Catholics aren't Christian, was there no Church at all between the time of the early church fathers and Luther?
There were churches very shortly after the acension of Jesus. Jesus told Peter that upon this rock (meaning Jesus) He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. By the way, Peter was NOT the first pope. That is just an example of how catholics twist scripture.
Just so ya know, catholicisim saw it's first light in the early part of the 3rd century with Constantine after his vision of the cross. He is actually considered the first papal figure historically. Catholicisim came out of the true church. If you want to be technical they are the true protestants.
Baptists are not considered protestants because they trace their roots back to John the Baptist and the first New testament churches. We are not even a denomination because denominations are protestants that came out of the catholic church. We never did. They came out of us.
Posted by JonathanDT: Because for those 1300 years or so, the Catholic church was THE church of Christ, with no alternatives. Sure there were divisions within the Catholic church, but all Christians were Catholic.
They were not THE church of Christ. They were the dominant religion. There were alternatives but they were not tolerated by the Roman machine. Catholics are credited historically with the murder of many millions of christians because they would not convert to catholicisim during the dark ages. It was not a choice. Convert or be killed. The church had to operate underground for centuries. They are the only religion that ever killed millions because they wouldn't convert in the name of Jesus Christ!
Posted by JonathanDT: I would love to see reputable sources saying otherwise.
Read The Trail of Blood: http://www.bryanstation.com/trail_of_blood.htm
It is a short read but will clear up many of your errors of this period.
Posted by JonathanDT: Also, before you slam the history of the Catholic Church, remember that the Protestant church hasn't always been the pinnacle of righteousness it should have been.
You are right. But it doesn't pertain to us as we are not protestants. If you were a baptist, you would know that!
Posted by Paul33: Catholics confess their sins.
To a man that cannot forgive them.
Posted by Paul33: Fundamental Baptists don't have man-made traditions?
We are independant and therefore have our own way of doing things. We call it church polity. It has nothing to do with wether or how a person is saved. It has more to do with how the church is to be run. Preferences etc.
Posted by Paul33: There are practicing Catholics who really do understand the meaning of what the Catholic church teaches and are regenerated.
You have NO biblical basis for that statement other than wishful thinking.
Posted by JonathanDT: Still though, that leaves a rather large gap with nothing but the Roman Catholic Church.
You are wrong! God has always had a church since the days of the apostles and it wasn't catholic!
Posted by JonathanDT: Mind copying some of those anti-Christian segments of the Catholic Catechism?
Just read the thing. If you have ever opened and read your bible even a little, you will see that the whole thing is anti-christ.
You may say there is alot of truth in catholicisim. Yes there is. There is truth in all religion. But believing it's doctrines will send a man to hell. It is anti-God, anti-man and anti Christ in it's agenda and practises.
Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The verse plainly states NOT of works! How can this be made any plainer?
Posted by JonathanDT: Let's see the part of this Catholic catechism that says they are not Christian.
Obviously there is no reference to catholics being christian in the catachisim as they believe they are the only true christians.
Posted by JonathanDT: So since the Catholics aren't Christian, was there no Church at all between the time of the early church fathers and Luther?
There were churches very shortly after the acension of Jesus. Jesus told Peter that upon this rock (meaning Jesus) He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. By the way, Peter was NOT the first pope. That is just an example of how catholics twist scripture.
Just so ya know, catholicisim saw it's first light in the early part of the 3rd century with Constantine after his vision of the cross. He is actually considered the first papal figure historically. Catholicisim came out of the true church. If you want to be technical they are the true protestants.
Baptists are not considered protestants because they trace their roots back to John the Baptist and the first New testament churches. We are not even a denomination because denominations are protestants that came out of the catholic church. We never did. They came out of us.
Posted by JonathanDT: Because for those 1300 years or so, the Catholic church was THE church of Christ, with no alternatives. Sure there were divisions within the Catholic church, but all Christians were Catholic.
They were not THE church of Christ. They were the dominant religion. There were alternatives but they were not tolerated by the Roman machine. Catholics are credited historically with the murder of many millions of christians because they would not convert to catholicisim during the dark ages. It was not a choice. Convert or be killed. The church had to operate underground for centuries. They are the only religion that ever killed millions because they wouldn't convert in the name of Jesus Christ!
Posted by JonathanDT: I would love to see reputable sources saying otherwise.
Read The Trail of Blood: http://www.bryanstation.com/trail_of_blood.htm
It is a short read but will clear up many of your errors of this period.
Posted by JonathanDT: Also, before you slam the history of the Catholic Church, remember that the Protestant church hasn't always been the pinnacle of righteousness it should have been.
You are right. But it doesn't pertain to us as we are not protestants. If you were a baptist, you would know that!
Posted by Paul33: Catholics confess their sins.
To a man that cannot forgive them.
Posted by Paul33: Fundamental Baptists don't have man-made traditions?
We are independant and therefore have our own way of doing things. We call it church polity. It has nothing to do with wether or how a person is saved. It has more to do with how the church is to be run. Preferences etc.
Posted by Paul33: There are practicing Catholics who really do understand the meaning of what the Catholic church teaches and are regenerated.
You have NO biblical basis for that statement other than wishful thinking.
Posted by JonathanDT: Still though, that leaves a rather large gap with nothing but the Roman Catholic Church.
You are wrong! God has always had a church since the days of the apostles and it wasn't catholic!
Posted by JonathanDT: Mind copying some of those anti-Christian segments of the Catholic Catechism?
Just read the thing. If you have ever opened and read your bible even a little, you will see that the whole thing is anti-christ.
You may say there is alot of truth in catholicisim. Yes there is. There is truth in all religion. But believing it's doctrines will send a man to hell. It is anti-God, anti-man and anti Christ in it's agenda and practises.
garpier
If you want to point out a large old Christian tradition that is seperate from Catholicism you should point to Nestorianism or to Oriental Orthodoxy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy
Not to Monatists, Donatists, Paulicans, Albigensians and Waldensians.
The ones you list are smaller, existed for a shorter amount of time saw themselves as part of the RCC at least part of the time (Donatists, Waldensians), or weren't Christians at all (Albigensians).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
If you want to point out a large old Christian tradition that is seperate from Catholicism you should point to Nestorianism or to Oriental Orthodoxy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy
Not to Monatists, Donatists, Paulicans, Albigensians and Waldensians.
The ones you list are smaller, existed for a shorter amount of time saw themselves as part of the RCC at least part of the time (Donatists, Waldensians), or weren't Christians at all (Albigensians).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
Soulman
"Just so ya know, catholicisim saw it's first light in the early part of the 3rd century with Constantine after his vision of the cross. He is actually considered the first papal figure historically."
"
Constantine lived from 274-337 (late 3rd early 4th for those keeping score at home).The 10 popes presiding in Rome that got elected to that office during his lifetime are testament to the fact that he was not a papal figure.
The only remotely Popish thing the man ever did was organizing the Council of Nicea.
"Baptists are not considered protestants because they trace their roots back to John the Baptist"
"
No we don't, we're not Mandeans. Well at least I'm not....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandeans
The baptist denominations are simply a humble product of the Reformation, nothing wrong with that.
dcorbett
So understanding (gnosis) of Grace is a prerequisite for Salvation?
"Just so ya know, catholicisim saw it's first light in the early part of the 3rd century with Constantine after his vision of the cross. He is actually considered the first papal figure historically."
"
Constantine lived from 274-337 (late 3rd early 4th for those keeping score at home).The 10 popes presiding in Rome that got elected to that office during his lifetime are testament to the fact that he was not a papal figure.
The only remotely Popish thing the man ever did was organizing the Council of Nicea.
"Baptists are not considered protestants because they trace their roots back to John the Baptist"
"
No we don't, we're not Mandeans. Well at least I'm not....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandeans
The baptist denominations are simply a humble product of the Reformation, nothing wrong with that.
dcorbett
So understanding (gnosis) of Grace is a prerequisite for Salvation?
Jonathan, as yu point out these groups were considered hertical. But who labled them that? The Roman Catholic Church, the same group that promotes confession, purgatory, intercessionof Mary and the saints, transubstantiation, indulgences, etc. etc. etc. he point is that there has always been a New Testament church since the time of Christ. The names have changed but they have always been separate from the heretical Roman catholic church