Does anyone really believe Catholics are Christians?

Catholic doctrine would agree with 1,2,3,5. They would agree with 4 too, except for your definition of "and Him alone." What verse says that if you believe in faith + works you are not saved?

 

Soulman
"What are you saying mioque? That the KJV isn't the word of God? Be careful. Read your niv for all I care. "
"
What I am saying is that folks like me (for whom English is a second, third, or fourth language) are suspicious of folks who claim to have in English their own special supertranslation that is better than anything we will ever have....
We prefer to study a Bible in our own language, or in the original languages instead of English.

So no the NIV doesn't cut it either....

 

"Is it doctrinally sound enough?"

It's not an absolute minimum must know list. That would be 1, 5.

Knowledge of 2-4 would be extremely usefull ofcourse, making it much more likely that a person is going to become saved.

 

You are absolutely correct. Catholics believe the whole process of salvation begins and ends with God and is by grace through faith. They have a different way of expressing what that faith looks like, but it is still faith!

Catholics are accused of adding to faith. Faith plus the church, or faith plus sacraments.

Fundamental Baptists do the same thing. They believe that "asking for forgiveness by praying a prayer" saves them. Sounds alot like a work to me. Faith plus "my prayer."

 

You didn't answer my question. Where does it say that anyone who believes in faith + works isn't saved? It says that faith saves us, but it doesn't say that believing works are required for salvation nullifies your salvation.

 

The Catholic Church is not Christian, for instance they use their own special 10 commandments missing number 2, and splitting number 10 in two parts. also the catholic catacism says they are a different faith than christianity (by means of the continuing revalation of the pope who can change doctrine). catholics have doctrines that PRECLUDE Jesus. transubstantation is esencailly canibalism. bowing down and praying to idols (there is even a catholic idol for selling you house just bury in the fron yard and say the majic words. the two faiths are historically and theologically different, take for instance how the catholics persecuted the ana-baptists (the precursor to modern Baptists; ana-baptist=another baptism or Believers baptism). the first recorded church (ana-baptist) is in syria in the year 212 ad, about the same time as the heretical baptismal regeneration (which is what saves in most denominations, not faith.). the followers of john the baptist (who then followed Christ) organized it. catholicism is a pagen religeon and should not be considered Christian. i can provide ample sources if needed. the history of the catholic church should be enough to prove they are not christian. Do not confuse this with ex-catholics being saved, all kinds-of "ex's" can be saved (i.e. ex-adulterers, ex-murders). so there will be lots of ex-catholics in heaven (like me). there is no surity of salvation to the catholic.
thank you and God bless

ps. if i rambled i'm sorry kids bothering me in the backgound.

 

oh and Grace saves Faith does not.
if faith saved evolutionists would make it cuz tey got more faith (open-eyed acceptance) than christians, just faith in the wrong person (namely themselves)

 

Wow, that's some serious revisionist history you have there. Let's see the part of this Catholic catechism that says they are not Christian.

So since the Catholics aren't Christian, was there no Church at all between the time of the early church fathers and Luther? Because for those 1300 years or so, the Catholic church was THE church of Christ, with no alternatives. Sure there were divisions within the Catholic church, but all Christians were Catholic. I would love to see reputable sources saying otherwise. If you would like a good history of the Christian Church that is a good read, The Story of Christianity by Justo Gonzalez is an excellent book.

Also, before you slam the history of the Catholic Church, remember that the Protestant church hasn't always been the pinnacle of righteousness it should have been.

 

You are kidding Jonathan, aren,t you? All Christians were catholic until Luther? Talk about revisionist history. Ever heard of the Monatists, Donatists, Paulicans, Albigensians, Waldensians? None of them were part of the catholic church and yet I would venture to say that many of them were born again christians.

 

catholic catechism spells out catholic doctrine....the doctrine in not christian, it is pagan. and the ana-baptists were hunted since the first appearence of batismal regeneration in 212 ad.

 

Catholics confess their sins.

Fundamental Baptists don't have man-made traditions?

 

There is much about the Catholic tradition that is man-made. There are misinterpretations of Scripture.

The same can be said about every single denomination.

There are practicing Catholics who really do understand the meaning of what the Catholic church teaches and are regenerated.

There are practicing Baptists who really do understand the meaning of what the Baptist church teaches and are regenerated.

And there are many of both who are lost and going to hell.

 

Garpier, read your history again my friend. The Monatatists were a group of heretics (which Tertullian eventually joined). The Donatists were a division within the Catholic church (though eventually they were completely separated and died out). I've never heard of the Paulicans, but from what I can find they were also heretics. I don't remember much about the Albigensians, but once again, from what I can find they were also heretics (Denied the Trinity). You are right about the Waldensians, they were forerunners of the Reformation. Still though, that leaves a rather large gap with nothing but the Roman Catholic Church. Unless you'd like to argue for the Greek Orthodox Church...

 

Mind copying some of those anti-Christian segments of the Catholic Catechism?

 

If you don't understand grace, you don't understand salvation. Period. End of sentence.

 

garpier
If you want to point out a large old Christian tradition that is seperate from Catholicism you should point to Nestorianism or to Oriental Orthodoxy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy
Not to Monatists, Donatists, Paulicans, Albigensians and Waldensians.
The ones you list are smaller, existed for a shorter amount of time saw themselves as part of the RCC at least part of the time (Donatists, Waldensians), or weren't Christians at all (Albigensians).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

 

Soulman
"Just so ya know, catholicisim saw it's first light in the early part of the 3rd century with Constantine after his vision of the cross. He is actually considered the first papal figure historically."
"
Constantine lived from 274-337 (late 3rd early 4th for those keeping score at home).The 10 popes presiding in Rome that got elected to that office during his lifetime are testament to the fact that he was not a papal figure.
The only remotely Popish thing the man ever did was organizing the Council of Nicea.


"Baptists are not considered protestants because they trace their roots back to John the Baptist"
"
No we don't, we're not Mandeans. Well at least I'm not....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandeans
The baptist denominations are simply a humble product of the Reformation, nothing wrong with that.


dcorbett
So understanding (gnosis) of Grace is a prerequisite for Salvation?

 

Jonathan, as yu point out these groups were considered hertical. But who labled them that? The Roman Catholic Church, the same group that promotes confession, purgatory, intercessionof Mary and the saints, transubstantiation, indulgences, etc. etc. etc. he point is that there has always been a New Testament church since the time of Christ. The names have changed but they have always been separate from the heretical Roman catholic church